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Thread: Ah, cool!

  1. #11

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    I converted to the four barrel for simplicity. For the time being I will run the carb, and see how it performs. I know it is notn the best for angles and tilts. My 88 has a 3.9 V8 with the same carb and ignition, and has managed 17 mpg with 4.70 axles and OD. I have run it over 30K miles without any problem, except a multiple rollover. I have two LR 3.9 liter EFI setups that I might play with for the future. The LR electronics are not known for their durability and seem overly complicated.... There is a somewhat nearby specialist shop that does a lot of MGB V8 and TR8 EFI conversions, using a simpler and hopefully more reliable electronics and sensors. I might drop by for a look.

    Bob

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    290

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    When you are ready, replace the 4-barrel with a Holley Pro-Jection system. It bolts onto the existing manifold, and is easy to tune.

    Problem solved.

    To answer Terri's question, the Rover EFI is not the least reliable, but parts are complicated and expensive. Wiring problems with the stock harness can easily strand you. I generally do not allow EFI vehicles to participate in our "epic" (multi-month) expeditions for reliability issues, unless a complete system (all parts and ECU) and replacement wiring harness is carried in the spares kit, and has been tested on that particular vehicle prior to departure.

    I do agree with your "pro" points in your list 100%- all valid points, but if the car does not run at all, that one "con" trumps all "pros"... Some of the other problems include more complicated waterproofing methods required, difficult troubleshooting when things aren't running perfect (unless you know the system intimately) and just plain complexity. If it is on your truck and you want to do an "epic" trip with us, you had better be able to deal with every system on your vehicle with a mastery, personally. Always assume it will fail, and have a plan for repair yourself- tools on board, parts on board, and knowledge in your head.

    Diesel is the future.
    Photographer / writer for LRM (until they screwed me).
    1995 110 Regular
    300Tdi, Series and Defender repairs in CT

  3. #13
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    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cornwall Ct
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    If a Rover EFI system isn't the least reliable out there, I don't know what is. Multiple component failures as well as wire harness problems due to age are common and expected on a long-distance ride. They're pretty easy systems to diagnose and repair but anticipate problems with lots of spares. Replacing the system with a common carburetor and an HEI disributor will increase reliability 10-fold. Maybe it won't be quite as responsive or return quite as good economy, but it will get you there and back. Throw in a spare carb and distributor in the back and you can sleep at night.

    If you want to run an injection system, installing a common one like TeriAnn's isn't a bad idea. They're many times more reliable than the Rover system if installed properly and carefully, and local knowlege, diagnosis and parts availability will be much better when you're traveling. Drop over to your local NAPA store and ask for a mass air flow snesor for a '92 Crown Vic and then ask for one for a '92 Range Rover. They'll have one for the Ford in stock but won't even be able to find Range Rover in the book. (Range Rover?" "Yeah, it's a Land Rover." "Is that a Toyota?" "No, it's a Land Rover." "Oh, here it is, Land Cruiser!")

    The Holley injection system seems pretty good but I'd be afraid of reliability and would carry along a new compete system anywhere I roamed.

    And for once, J!m, I agree with you. Yes, diesel is the future. A good diesel will be far-and-away more reliable, economic to run and longer-lived than a gas engine. In every place else in the world, that's been known for a long time. A few of us in the States knew that a long time ago too!

    Jim

  4. #14
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    Nov 2006
    Location
    Flagstaff, Arizona
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    1,087

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercedesrover
    Throw in a spare carb and distributor in the back and you can sleep at night.
    I'm figuring a spare distributor, ECU, throttle position sensor and a fuel pump. The injectors never seem to stop working (I also have 2 fuel filters in series plus one beween my transfer fuel tanks and my rear tank that feeds the EFI). I have a spare of each of the two relays used in my system, but I know I could always bypass them in need. The ECU's limp home mode will keep the vehicle working with all the other sensors disabled. Of course I have the advantage of having studied my fuel injection system's theory of operation before beginning the conversion, having done it myself so I know what is where and I have a full set of accurate drawings for my EFI system showing pin numbers, colour codes and signals. So I have the advantage of knowing my EFI system well enough to diagnose and repair problems in the field.

    My ECU is mounted on the bulkhead instrument shelf where the cubby box space is on the right side (LHD). So it is up high and very well protected.

    My fuel pump relays & Inertia switch are on the behind the seat bulkhead between the front seats. I was worried about the inertial switch tripping while rock crawling so have it where I can reach beside me and turn it back on without taking a foot off the brakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercedesrover
    If you want to run an injection system, installing a common one like TeriAnn's isn't a bad idea. They're many times more reliable than the Rover system if installed properly and carefully
    Ford EFI has the reputation of being one of the most dependable in the auto industry and the system I chose is the conversion of choice for the Bronco off road crowd. Solid off road dependability was a prime factor in my choosing to go this route.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mercedesrover
    And for once, J!m, I agree with you. Yes, diesel is the future. A good diesel will be far-and-away more reliable, economic to run and longer-lived than a gas engine.
    Agreed. However choices for wide revving engines available in the States that fit a Series engine bay and has enough power to push a loaded 109 up steep climbs or mountain highway driving are VERY limited.

    When I did my engine swap in '99 I wanted to put in a freshly rebuilt Nissan LD28 with a turbo. I decided the GM 6.2 weighed too much and the fit was too tight for me to be happy. Every time I ran the numbers for a fresh rebuilt LD28, SD33T or 6AT the price of the total conversion was about double that of a fresh 302 conversion and there was no way I could recoup the difference in cost from fuel savings between rebuilds. So I decided upon the 302. At the time I did not know that diesel could run on used cooking oil. Had I known at the time I could have driven for almost free I would have gone ahead & put a diesel powerplant in instead of the petrol one. Likely the 6 cyl LD28 with a turbo. Oh well

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    CT
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    Yep. gasoline costs are expected to reach $5.00 by the end of the year.

    Once we Americans start to get a taste of what the rest of the world pays for fuel, I think the tide will turn, and fast.

    The 200Tdi is a very easy swap into a series truck, and has all the power a fully loaded 109 would need. That is the direction we should be thinking in my opinion...
    Photographer / writer for LRM (until they screwed me).
    1995 110 Regular
    300Tdi, Series and Defender repairs in CT

  6. #16
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    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cornwall Ct
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeriAnn
    I have the advantage of having studied my fuel injection system's theory of operation before beginning the conversion, having done it myself so I know what is where and I have a full set of accurate drawings for my EFI system showing pin numbers, colour codes and signals. So I have the advantage of knowing my EFI system well enough to diagnose and repair problems in the field.
    Good for you, TeriAnn! One of the great problems with these so-called "hybrid" trucks is that people with too much money pay someone else to engineer and build them. That's all well and good until you're 100 miles from nowhere and the thing comes up limp. Building the truck like yourself, dirty hands and all, will give you a great advantage in the field over others who aren't very familliar with what makes their truck tick.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeriAnn
    However choices for wide revving engines available in the States that fit a Series engine bay and has enough power to push a loaded 109 up steep climbs or mountain highway driving are VERY limited.

    At the time I did not know that diesel could run on used cooking oil. Had I known at the time I could have driven for almost free I would have gone ahead & put a diesel powerplant in instead of the petrol one. Likely the 6 cyl LD28 with a turbo. Oh well
    You're very right...Reasonablly priced, roadable diesels aren't very common in the States. At 125hp the 617 turbo would probably do it, but it wouldnt be a rocket ship. The reason I went with the engine I did as that I wanted diesel, I wanted reliablility and I wanted to be able to get spares easily. These engines are a nickel for a bushel basket because the cars they were in rust so quickly. And if you're interested in burning alternative fuel (WVO, SVO, Bio), none burn it better than these Benz engines. A 616/617 engine will run almost as well on light engine oil, any vegatible oil, tranny fluid, hydrolic fluid, etc., as it will on diesel.

    Quote Originally Posted by J!m
    The 200Tdi is a very easy swap into a series truck, and has all the power a fully loaded 109 would need. That is the direction we should be thinking in my opinion...
    Yes, pretty good motors and an easy swap, but the engines aren't cheap, (or legal in most cases) and you're beholden to a precious few parts suppliers. They've got a belt-driven cam and an intererence motor...Not a good idea if you ask me, though it's been done forever. They're also intollerant of alternative fuels if you ever want to go that route.

  7. #17
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    Oct 2006
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    1,199

    Default TAW, since when have you been running EFI?

    Did you use the Ford ECM or just the guts and Megasquirt? I see that you have the Mass Air on it which leads me to believe you're running an A9L or similar ECM.
    Let me recommend that you ditch the Ford ECM, and buy the Megasquirt kit. There's really no reason to be using the Ford especially due to the great snarl of wiring and the lack of user adjustments.
    Megasquirt will run with one vacuum line to the ECM. That's all the input it requires. Of course there are other sensors that you'll hook up, like TPS, air and water temp, and even an o2 sensor if you want. Your wire count will drop from 30 or so to about 8. How's that for simple? In addition, you can fine tune it for your type of driving whether it's for economy or power.
    OK, megasquirt is bank fire and not sequential, but anything above tickover it doesn't really matter anyway. The only whoop de doo feature of the Ford EFI is the adaptive look up table. This is instead of allowing you to tune it yourself. Oh and the mass air...you can take that out too.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Flagstaff, Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Adams
    Did you use the Ford ECM or just the guts and Megasquirt? I see that you have the Mass Air on it which leads me to believe you're running an A9L or similar ECM.
    Let me recommend that you ditch the Ford ECM, and buy the Megasquirt kit. There's really no reason to be using the Ford especially due to the great snarl of wiring and the lack of user adjustments.
    Megasquirt will run with one vacuum line to the ECM. That's all the input it requires. Of course there are other sensors that you'll hook up, like TPS, air and water temp, and even an o2 sensor if you want. Your wire count will drop from 30 or so to about 8. How's that for simple? In addition, you can fine tune it for your type of driving whether it's for economy or power.
    OK, megasquirt is bank fire and not sequential, but anything above tickover it doesn't really matter anyway. The only whoop de doo feature of the Ford EFI is the adaptive look up table. This is instead of allowing you to tune it yourself. Oh and the mass air...you can take that out too.
    Let me see if I understand you correctly? You are suggesting that I rip out all the electrics to an already installed and functional EFI conversion, spend a bunch of money for a different control system and start all over again with a different electrical system just so I can fiddle with the ECU computer afterwards?

    Why on earth would I want to do that

    Here's what I have: EFI conversion from a 1991 Mustang 5.0 GT 5 speed mounted onto a 1970 Mustang 302.
    - load resistors instead of EGR and fuel tank evaporative recirculation thingies. The crank case SMOG stuff is in place. And I have not figured out how to add the speed sensor to the Series transfer case speedo gear assembly (minor annoyance when coming to a stop with my foot off the pedal).

    The O2 sensors constantly monitor the air to fuel ratio for economy, the engine automatically retunes itself for altitude so no more running way rich in the Rockys, the engine retunes itself for intake air density & engine temperature. Why would I want to carry an on board computer and fiddle with it on trips into tall mountains? Looking at factory fuel consumption numbers, it appears that Ford injection systems get better fuel consumption from sequential injection than they do from bank injection. The factory ECU self adjusts for changes in the engine such as cam, headers, custom heads and stroker crank. It self adjusts to compensate for sensor variation & engine wear. The EFI system can self adapt to handle over 350 hp engines without changes. And then it just needs a larger dia throttle body and MAF until you get to 500 HP and then it just needs higher pressure injectors and a different fuel pressure regulator. All that without modifying the ECU or wiring.

    The Mustang EFI subharness required no modifications to fit in my Land Rover's 302. The 1991 Mustang engine harness I used did require changes though.

    I started off by ripping out my Land Rover's engine bay wiring. Then I laid in the Mustang harness. A Mustang engine bay is a lot wider than a Series Bay, so the part of the harness that goes across the bulkhead took a loop around the Kodiak blower motor housing. That shortened up the length perfectly. The Mustang's battery is on the left inner wing panel, so I had to reroute all the wires going to the battery area for power. I decided to make all my ground connections to the right side frame near my battery ground connection so I needed to reroute those wires as well.

    I picked out wires I wasn't using and created a whole new subharness for the fuel pumps, FP relay and inertia switch. Otherwise the Mustang engine harness is unmolested. I rewired the LR's previous engine bay electrics to fit into the Mustang harness and that was about all there was to the EFI wiring. Most of the effort was learning how EFI worked and deciding where to place non engine mounted components.

    My ECU sits on the inner bulkhead instrument shelf in the right hand corner. With the ECU on its side it is a perfect fit with a rubber pad between it and the bulkhead to absorb some of the higher frequency vibrations. My bulkhead has a premade hole for a RHD steering column with a block off plate. I removed the block off plate and used a grinder to reshape the opening to fit the Ford bulkhead wire harness grommet.

    That's pretty much all there was to the EFI wiring. Since it is all installed and working why in the world would I rip everything out, buy a megasquirt thingie, a portable computer to run it and start all over again with the wiring?

    You suggestion doesn't make sense to me. What am I not getting

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,199

    Default Eh, whatever!

    If you're happy with the Ford stuff, well fine.
    At least I got you to install EFI!

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