Defender Central

[JSBriggs]

.... and start producing some of the fuel efficient designs they have been sitting on for 60+ years.

I wish they would put quality and durability on the top of the list long before fuel efficiency.

-Jeff

[Momo]

How quickly the lessons of the '73 oil crisis have been forgotten.

Meanwhile Honda just opened a new plant in Indiana. I guess they must be doing something right.

I'm with you guys- no bailout. Free markets are cruel but decisive. The irony is that the current crisis may finally open the US market to all those great little turbo diesels that the ROW enjoys.

[Eric W S]

I had a Defender. Never again. I loved the truck, but they have nothing on a well restored series.

EwS

[sayers]

I can remember that in 1997 d90's were 34,500, right off the lot, not a bad price back then. Maybe ta-ta motors will think outside the box and send some defenders our way.

[Carpe]

I wish they would put quality and durability on the top of the list long before fuel efficiency.

-Jeff

Land Rover owners can't throw too many stones at US automakers for quality and durability. Take a quick survey of the forums we are in and you will quickly realize that it is 95% about repair, 3% about buying and selling, and 2% about driving. Our aftermarket for repair parts for Rovers is disproportionately high to that of accessories. Rovers break - that's what they do. We like them because they have character, history, and relatively sound off-road handling. However, we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking that we are to be swayed by quality and durability. We like repairability.

[Carpe]

Amen.

I know several people that are aware of the big three buying up patents for fuel efficient engines since the 1940's. We were getting 36mpg in 1930. That is a fact. And yet, they want us to believe that in 2008, 78 years later that 22mpg is good? ("Top of its class in mpg," as they like to say.)

I say let them go bankrupt and then let them reform (under chapter 11 guidelines) and start producing some of the fuel efficient designs they have been sitting on for 60+ years.

Sounds good in principle, but the number of jobs lost for an auto industry bankrupcy would boggle your mind. The bank bailout was much about conceptual money; Billions of dollars of losses were on paper based on speculation of returns and interest lost. When a bank makes a loan, they only have to have 10% of those physical dollars on hand to guarantee the loan. If someone defaulted on a loan, the bank claims the full amount for bad debt write-off because the loans that they sold as securities will no longer to be able to pay the full amount of interest to the investors, but the banks themselves are only out that initial 10% that they were required to have for the loan...bottom line, the loss wasn't as bad as it looked on paper.

In contrast, the auto industry has to deal with physical inventory that is generated by multiple tiers of suppliers. When GM gets debt relief, Delphi is stiffed, Delphi's suppliers are stiffed, Delphi's suppliers' suppliers are stiffed, etc...what that translates to is MASSIVE job losses from the bottom up. To support an OEM operation like the Toyota plant in Canton, MS, it takes upwards of 250 suppliers / service firms (everyone from injection mold companies, to paint suppliers, to office supply companies, to cleaning crews, to communications companies, to food services, etc...) to keep the plant operational. Every time we let one factory tank, you can guarantee that there will be very painful financial and job loss problems for 2 shock circles - the most intense is within 75 miles of the plant, and the second is within 115 miles of the plant. Drive through lovely Flint, MI if you doubt it.

One key problem is Union labor. The average full price of labor for a union worker (salary+benefits+healthcare+amortized retirement / perpetuation of retirement) is roughly $64/hr. Shocking, isn't it?! The average full price of labor for a non union worker under the same considerations is $32/hr. Union labor is an unsustainable model. They have made some great advances for the cause of the worker, but that's about all I can say positively about them. The fact of the matter is that the US automakers don't make a car that is twice as good or twice as reliable or twice as fuel efficient to justify paying their workers twice as much.

We need the US auto industry to succeed for a lot of reasons. We need them to retool to help them succeed. We also need to understand, though, that for every Rover we buy, that's one less GM car sold to us, which means that we are voting on the outcome of this crisis with our dollars.

[Carpe]

I had a Defender. Never again. I loved the truck, but they have nothing on a well restored series.

EwS

Just out of curiosity, what is your criteria for enjoyment of the Series over the Defender? Is it character, dependability, comfort, durability, etc...? Is it something subjective or relatively objective that drives that feeling?

[Eric W S]

Sounds good in principle, but the number of jobs lost for an auto industry bankrupcy would boggle your mind. The bank bailout was much about conceptual money; Billions of dollars of losses were on paper based on speculation of returns and interest lost. When a bank makes a loan, they only have to have 10% of those physical dollars on hand to guarantee the loan. If someone defaulted on a loan, the bank claims the full amount for bad debt write-off because the loans that they sold as securities will no longer to be able to pay the full amount of interest to the investors, but the banks themselves are only out that initial 10% that they were required to have for the loan...bottom line, the loss wasn't as bad as it looked on paper.

In contrast, the auto industry has to deal with physical inventory that is generated by multiple tiers of suppliers. When GM gets debt relief, Delphi is stiffed, Delphi's suppliers are stiffed, Delphi's suppliers' suppliers are stiffed, etc...what that translates to is MASSIVE job losses from the bottom up. To support an OEM operation like the Toyota plant in Canton, MS, it takes upwards of 250 suppliers / service firms (everyone from injection mold companies, to paint suppliers, to office supply companies, to cleaning crews, to communications companies, to food services, etc...) to keep the plant operational. Every time we let one factory tank, you can guarantee that there will be very painful financial and job loss problems for 2 shock circles - the most intense is within 75 miles of the plant, and the second is within 115 miles of the plant. Drive through lovely Flint, MI if you doubt it.

One key problem is Union labor. The average full price of labor for a union worker (salary+benefits+healthcare+amortized retirement / perpetuation of retirement) is roughly $64/hr. Shocking, isn't it?! The average full price of labor for a non union worker under the same considerations is $32/hr. Union labor is an unsustainable model. They have made some great advances for the cause of the worker, but that's about all I can say positively about them. The fact of the matter is that the US automakers don't make a car that is twice as good or twice as reliable or twice as fuel efficient to justify paying their workers twice as much.

We need the US auto industry to succeed for a lot of reasons. We need them to retool to help them succeed. We also need to understand, though, that for every Rover we buy, that's one less GM car sold to us, which means that we are voting on the outcome of this crisis with our dollars.

That's not exactly a true statement about how loans are handled. If they are collateralized, then they aren't on the banks books since they were sold as an asset. GAAP would not allow a loss to be taken by the bank.

Wall Street losses aren't paper losses. That's why we have a credit issue on the street. That's why banks failed. The investors lost real money.

We don't need a US auto Industry that can't compete in today's market. They are out of touch with just about everyone and everything. Let the market do it's thing and wipe the slate clean. The US voted for years on the outcome. We want imports for everything but US trucks if you look at recent sales. I may buy a Jeep, but that is about it.

[Eric W S]

Just out of curiosity, what is your criteria for enjoyment of the Series over the Defender? Is it character, dependability, comfort, durability, etc...? Is it something subjective or relatively objective that drives that feeling?

Series are better off road. They climb well, have a better COG. I outwheeled a 90 rather easily over the summer. You can lock and load a series truck just like any D.

Field repairable. Cheap parts. Simple systems that can be easily diagnosed anywhere.

Copmpared to an under powered 3.9/4.0, no real superiority off road in the D, expensive and limited after market, expensive parts, expensive trips to the shop if you need a diagnosis on the ECM, emmissions, ...

Even the TDI Euro version have gone drive by wire, power windows, air con et al.

AND FINALLY they are making any more series trucks but they will be importing many more crappy old 90s in the near future.

[jp-]

Union labor is an unsustainable model.

I completely agree with you there, and that is reason enough to let them go under, to break the unions.

I know there will be a ripple effect, but that is not reason enough for my tax dollars to go into a black hole. Who is going to bailout the American taxpayer when we get done bailing everyone else out? Let the free market work. We are moving more and more toward socialism and I hope I am not the only one who is more than a little bit afraid of that.

The $700b bailout is an utter disgrace in my view. The fact is the loans are no good. Just because the government takes them over doesn't make them good all of a sudden. And no one is stepping up to pay off my mortgage so why do I have to help pay off someone else's when they never should have bought a house in the first place?

Also - Nissan is in Canton. Toyota is in Tupelo.

Almost went to work for Nissan...


The American car makers have been ignoring the warning signs of Toyota and Honda since the seventies.