Red Mountain Rovers

[Oscar]

I guess it's risk management. Exchanging a chassis on an SII is highly unlikely to get noticed. Taking the chassis and vin off an SII and sticking it under a 1999 110 is hard to miss.... We all make choices.

[ECR]

All these vehicles in question are illegal to some extent (some more than others).

Anyone who ever built a limo is also illegal according to the DOT due to the frame/uni-body mods.

Every Tdi conversion or Tdi powered Rover in the USA is illegal too (even if it is an older truck because import of a Tdi is illegal according to the EPA).

Basically, who cares and do what makes you happy within your own bounds.

[leafsprung]

Ike is so squeeky clean he never does anything illegal. He just likes to find others that do and bash them on it.

I'm pretty much stuck on the series trucks (though I have had a couple of coilers) and on the west coast, dont need to do many frame swaps so I dont have these issues. You've been the grey market police for some time over on D-90.com while simultaniously cranking out illegal rigs. That would be the only issue Ive ever had with you. I applaud the candor in your earlier post and hope thats the end of our disagreement.

[mechman]

+1 Pretender.

Mech,
You state in your last post that the average citizen probably would be dupped into thinking that the vehicle was legal, yet you still say that you would sue him till he bled out his eyes? Why, he probably wasn't the one who swapped the VIN in the first place? Nobody would drive the vehicle that they swapped the VIN on... Even Red Mountain Rovers isn't willing to take that risk (assuming these are VIN swapped vehicles). They are passing the risk on, yet you would sue the victim of their crime. Not good.

The DOT are a bunch of ball-washing-bastards, who live to make it more difficult for me to register my vehicles. This is a case where government should be working for me, not against me.

Pretender? WHAT?!

I've been a professional antique car mechanic for over 20 years now. I held a PA inspection license, but have let it lapse because I no longer need it (I now fix Zambonis and work for the Federal government). I started with aircooled Volkswagens, later branching out to antique French, Italian, German and British cars. I worked for a Rover shop in Philly for almost three years, mainly on ex-NATO Series Rovers, and at an MG shop for a while after. I have been a part of MANY body/frame swaps and have seen LOTS of VERY illegal cars. This is one of the things that happens to STOLEN cars, too, you know. How do you know that the rebadged car isn't HOT? I PERSONALLY know a person who STOLE a 1970 VW Bug, swapped out the VIN and chassis, then spent a week driving it past the man she stole it from, just to piss him off. Then she sold it to some sucker. She bragged about it to me.

I've not only worked on but OWNED many grey market cars, including a BMW 316, a Porsche 924 (Federalized) and a 1964 Bug (still have it too). At the Rover shop I personally helped reassemble a D110 that the boss had brought over from England in pieces, in a sea container. If you've been following the dealers' inventories for a few years, it was blue. He titled it as a 109 (VIN from one of the 100 he brought over). It was illegal as HELL. The windshield was non-laminated glass. Non-safety glass sides. No roll cage. A CARBURETOR on the 3.9. Non-DOT seat belts, no inertia reel tensioners. I helped install cats, to make it look at least a LITTLE legal. The man who bought it knew what he was getting into though. And if he ever hit me on the street, HELL YES I'd sue. If I were the one driving that abortion, I would expect the other guy's lawyer to feed my liver to me.

The DOT may be ball lickers, but they are pains in the ass not only to protect the guy behind the wheel, but all the people he might HIT. Not to mention the passengers.

The law states that nonconforming vehicles entering the United States must be brought into compliance, exported, or destroyed. Motor vehicles not more than 25 years old must conform to the Department of Transportation (DOT) motor vehicle safety standards that were in effect when these vehicles were manufactured. Passenger cars manufactured after September 1, 1973 must also meet bumper standards. The importer must file form DOT HS-7 at the time of entry, indicating whether the vehicle conforms to applicable safety and bumper standards. The original manufacturer is required to affix a label to the vehicle certifying that these standards have been met if the vehicle is intended for sale in the United States. Vehicles that do not bear a certification label attached by the original manufacturer must be entered as a nonconforming vehicle under a DOT bond for one and a half times the vehicle's dutiable value. This is in addition to the regular Customs entry bond. Unless specifically excepted, the importer must sign a contract with a DOT Registered Importer (RI), who will modify the vehicle to conform with all applicable safety and bumper standards and who can certify the modifications. A copy of the RI's contract must be attached to the DOT HS-7 form and furnished to the Customs Service with the DOT bond at the port of entry. A list of RIs is available from DOT and should be obtained before you decide to import a vehicle. Furthermore, DOT requires that the vehicle model and model year must, prior to entry, be determined eligible for importation. A DOT RI can advise you whether your vehicle is eligible; if it is not, the RI can submit a petition in your behalf to have your vehicle considered for eligibility, if you so desire. Understand, however, that fees must be paid at the time such petitions are filed. (clipped from a RI's site)

Pretty clear cut and simple. If it's under 25 years old, it has to meet US safety regs to be allowed on the road. Apparently there are a few state legislated exceptions. Japanese "Kei" mini trucks (top speed of 50 MPH) are allowed on the roads in a few states, but not on the Interstates or highways. ATVs (if a DOT approved kit is installed) are allowed to be registered as motorcycles in a few states as well. And, of course, anything over 25 years old (classified as an antique by the feds and thus not likely to be imported in great quantities) is legal to bring in and drive under federal regs (but not some state regs, this differs state to state).

I own a 1964 Citroen 2CV. A less safe car would be tough to find. Don't believe me, want to see pictures?

www.webshots.com/user/mechman71

Can you imagine trying to bring something like that into the country as a NEW car? Guess what - manufacturers are building cars TODAY that are NO safer. For the crowded streets of Beijing or the empty roads of Kashmir India these cars may be perfectly fine, but in modern US traffic? NO WAY.

Just because someone builds it and someone, somewhere drives it, that does NOT make it safe for US roads.

So PLEASE don't tell me what people would or would not do, especially to make a quick and easy buck. I'VE SEEN IT. I've even (to my shame) been a PART of it.

Mech

[leafsprung]

Pretender? WHAT?!

"+1 Pretender" means he was agreeing with the post from the guy whose screen name is "109 Pretender" I chuckled when I saw that huge response to a perceived slight. Your work with Gabor probably does qualify you as an expert in whats illegal though. Ultimately, since you can drive vehicles that are unsafe legally (like your old 2cv) while safer vehicles are illegal (like a brand new diesel BMW) one is left to assume that safety is not in fact the main purpose with these regulations.

[Eric W S]

"+1 Pretender" means he was agreeing with the post from the guy whose screen name is "109 Pretender" I chuckled when I saw that huge response to a perceived slight. Your work with Gabor probably does qualify you as an expert in whats illegal though. Ultimately, since you can drive vehicles that are unsafe legally (like your old 2cv) while safer vehicles are illegal (like a brand new diesel BMW) one is left to assume that safety is not in fact the main purpose with these regulations.

I have heard horror stories about Gabor's trucks. Him and Creed need to have the rover community vote them out of the tribe so to speak.

[mechman]

"+1 Pretender" means he was agreeing with the post from the guy whose screen name is "109 Pretender" I chuckled when I saw that huge response to a perceived slight. Your work with Gabor probably does qualify you as an expert in whats illegal though. Ultimately, since you can drive vehicles that are unsafe legally (like your old 2cv) while safer vehicles are illegal (like a brand new diesel BMW) one is left to assume that safety is not in fact the main purpose with these regulations.

Oops! Well, that's my bad. I thought he was calling me names. I got pretty worked up there. Time to take a deep breath, and a deep draught.

I don't actually drive my 2CV, y'know, I just happen to own it. I like to think I'm smart enough that I wouldn't drive it out of town, but in all honesty I once took Gabor's 2CV home to do some work on it and drove it right down Rt. 95. Twice. In Philly rush hour traffic. Eek.

A big part of the federal laws as I understand them, in regards to the 25 year rule, is that they don't expect huge numbers of any car that old to come into the country. The NATO demobbing of Series trucks was an event that (I think) took them off guard, but is not common enough to legislate away. There just aren't enough antique cars coming in for them to worry about each and every one.

Hehehe, about Gabor... I could tell stories... Part of why I left had to do with my "over fixing" the trucks. Like insisting on new wheel cylinders so they would stop more than once. But that was only a small part of why I left...

Mech

*Edit: FWIW, if any of my posts seem a bit... odd.. right now, I must apologize in advance. I've just been diagnosed with kidney stones and a resulting infection. I'll probably be online quite a bit for the next week or two, until I recover (and can stop shivering and stand straight agian). I'll try not to fly off the handle any more!

[Oscar]

I own a 1964 Citroen 2CV. A less safe car would be tough to find. Don't believe me, want to see pictures?

That was my daily driver from 1978-1980...Is it a -6 or a -4? They are actually safer than they look. They handle quite well and are almost impossible to roll. Now, getting run over by an 18 wheeler would be a different story. One will have to drive accordingly. Is it for sale?

[mechman]

It's a 2CV...uhh... 4 originally (if I remember right), but it has a 602 with Visa cylinders. It was built in Vigo, Spain, during the time they were building Saharas there (I understand they only built them because they got the new sedan dies by mistake - usually they built Camionettes and Truckettes). It is for sale, too! PM me for more info.

Have you seen the 2CV crash video on Jeroen Cats' site? It's... enlightening. Or horrifying. Or both.

Mech

[Oscar]

Have you seen the 2CV crash video on Jeroen Cats' site? It's... enlightening. Or horrifying. Or both.

I have seen them crashed live. As a spectator, a passenger, and an operator...... PM in the mail.