Red Mountain Rovers

[Leslie]

As an aside, Tennessee has a new class of "medium-speed vehicles", such as ATV's and modified golf carts.... so, you can drive them around town, etc. http://state.tn.us/revenue/notices/titlereg/08-21.pdf

Back to Rovers..... I've been in this discussion upmp**** times over the years, and I must be sadistic as I enjoy it every time.... lol.....

I work for a state agency, that enforces the state version of federal regulations... As federal regulations laid out, then the state enacts their own rules that can either reiterate, or go above and beyond (or within limits of), but don't have to exactly match. The feds have an oversight, but the state runs its own show. At times, there are plenty of things that the feds disagree with how the state does, and while sure, there are sometimes when the feds can call the shots, there have been *many* instances where the state's opinion stands, over the fed view. My point being..... while yes, there are federal laws that may not be adhered to, if you are meeting the letter of the law of your own state, then you're mostly in the clear (*no*, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not giving one the okay to break federal laws, etc. etc.).

On a state-by-state level, things are all over the board. Cali has laws that no one else has, yet many states feel they have to follow suit on a lot of them. Some things, like swapping VIN's, I think we're all on the same page about it being outright illegal, any way you cut it. Then, the other approach often bandyied about is the kit-car route. Starting off from ECR's site, Mike's site makes the point that they've checked California, New York, Maine, New Hampshire, that building a Defender out of parts and calling it a kit isn't legal. It also goes on to mention specially constructed vehicles, etc. (A lot of good info there, such as the info on titles, too.) (Have to admit, I wonder if a CKD could be legally defendable as a kit, eh? I know the initial answer is no, but, a good lawyer might be able to.... anyway...)

But some states don't specifically deny such. Some states, it's scary what's allowed to run around legally. If you can bolt together a bunch of parts and get something to run, tow it to the DMV, a state trooper here will inspect it, and if he's signed off on it he'll issue you a VIN, and it's street-legal here. (Again, I'm not gonna come bail you out if you find otherwise.... )

And, there are plenty of other facets.... liability, insurance, service, maintainability, etc. etc. etc. There are a lot of people who want a Defender, want one cheaper than buying one of the NAS ones, try to get one via other routes.... but, I think most of the folks here realize, not that I'm trying to be harsh or judgemental, but there are some people just not quite cut out for living with a Rover.... be it a Series or a 'special project'.

I think a problem with special Rovers is keeping them up. It's one thing to have a vehicle that you can run to a dealer and they can go through it by the book. When a Rover is put together by someone else, no matter how well done, it's not going to be an assembly-line vehicle. (That can be a good thing! but...). When someone hadn't built a vehicle themselves, or doesn't have the builder at-hand, then when a problem comes about, they have difficulty in dealing with... some people (the kind that lives w/ a Series), probably has a basic skills set and enough of a sense of adventure that they can roll up their sleeves and have a go, but I dare say we all know of at least one case where someone was enamoured with the idea of a Rover, obtained one, and really started to find that it wasn't a Honda (again, a good thing, but....).

Anyway, I'm rambling, and have a long Rover day tomorrow, so, adieu.......

[Eric W S]

All grey market and most VIN swapped trucks have state titles. Doesn't make them in "the clear". Nor does a state titling a truck make it legal.

[Leslie]

I agree, but I wasn't talking about titling.... that's separate. As previously mentioned, all the title does is demonstrate ownership. I agree, a title doesn't help.

Swapping VINs then getting a new title is still fraud. Being honest about the process is another matter. Be deliberate in your interaction in trying to do things the 'right' way. Don't know about other states, but here does things differently than elsewhere. FWIW....

[lr110def]

As for the green "1998" Def. 110 on Red mt rovers site. All I can say is I owned it about 7 years ago and it was right hand drive,red, had a Disco 200tdi engine and was titled by the person I bought it from as a 109. He said it had been rebuilt. I said ok and drove it a couple of years and then sold it. The guy I sold it to rebuilt it to its current state and then he sold it, again as a 109. So how it became a 1998 D110 is beyond me. it is a darn fine truck though. I also noticed that Red Mt has removed all of the "questionable" trucks from their site.

[mechman]

Leslie, EricWS, you are both absolutely correct. Some states don't even have inspections! I know in Washington, your car has to be inspected when you first register it, but NEVER AGAIN afterwards. Oklahoma abolished its inspection program - it used to cost something like $15 to get your car inspected, price mandated by the state. The mechanics fought it in court, public advocacy groups fought the mechanics, and the state refused to subsidize the difference, so they abolished the inspection requirements altogether. I was in Oklahoma while this was going on (late 2001).

I've been involved with building kit cars, both here in PA and in NJ (where I worked for the VW shop). A kit car has to be substantially different (if I remember right, 40% of the parts have to be non-OE supplied) from the car(s) it is built from. ANY parts coming from any other vehicle have to be documented. For instance, if you use a VW chassis to build a dune buggy (I have one, too), you have to have the title that matches the chassis and (it's highly suggested) receipts for the other parts. VW kits were easy to build, because the other parts usually came off of the car you used as a base, or came with the kit.

If a car is fundamentally unchanged from it's manufactured specs (or option range), then it's NOT A KIT but a CKD car, and has to meet DOT regs before it can go on the road. Any engine that's on the road is supposed to be covered by an EPA certification and have all of the emissions equipment mandated for the car's date of manufacture. Heck, these days LAWN MOWER engines have to have EPA certs, too! Some state are more stringent about this than others - it's tough to catch "illegal" cars if you don't even do annual inspections. But if you have an accident with an illegal car and someone gets hurt, expect to get reamed by the other guy's attorney.

One good example of this was CX Auto. Back in the 90's they imported Citroen CX's into the US, even though Citroen hadn't had a US presence since 1974. They were buying the cars in Europe, refitting JUST ENOUGH parts in the Netherlands, then shipping them to the US as a car of their own manufacture under a small manufacturer exception. The government eventually closed that loophole (I think with airbags being mandated, it became too expensive anyway), but there are still a whole bunch of CX's running around (and they're awfully nice cars, too).

lr110def, you got pretty lucky. I wasn't saying that that truck is necessarily bad (though some of the reassembled trucks definitely ARE), just illegal. If you'd have hit someone, or even been hit by a drunk driver, you'd have been in for a world of legal hurtin'. According to Red Mountain's ad, the truck was a "police impound", so someone else may have gotten that legal screwing you avoided. If it had been involved in an accident, you might have been contacted, as a previous owner of record. It usually depends on how hungry the attorney or DA is, though.

I'm glad to hear that they removed their "questionable" trucks for their site, But I'd still be leery of them. Gabor didn't widely advertise all of the trucks he sold, either.

Mech

[scubarova]

>>I don't get the impression Mike is doing that anymore. He used to, for >>sure. But most of his recent builds have been on proper 90's and 110's. >>Of course the cost probably prohibits too many people from hiring him to >>do this with any frequency though.

>“We still do it all the time…That is how the Beach Runners and such are >built. NAS 90s that are built up as 110s. We have a 90 to 130 BR coming >up this Spring, as well as a 90 to 110 BR next month.”

>“As far as DOT... everything you want to do is illegal basically. Us building >a 90 into a 110 is technically illegal as according to the DOT and Maine law >if you change the frame you must now apply for a new VIN and meet 2008 >regulations…Also if you restore a 110 to the level we do that is illegal >too…”


WOW…
How can ECR justify a major portion of its vehicles? ECR is admitting that many ECR vehicles are not legal yet in the past ECR has hounded other people for selling “illegal” vehicles. ECR is blatantly mentioning they are building illegal “beach runners.” I’d be mighty pissed if I bought something from ECR only to find it was a dodgy vehicle like some of the others (which are often a fraction of the ECR price) How do they justify the markup for a vehicle that even they admit is not legal? Any idiot with a spanner can reassemble a Defender- that’s why we love them. Let me guess, now that they don’t have the NAS 110/90 market wrapped up they want all the other imported vehicles classified illegal.

Now that 25-year-old Land Rovers - D90, D110 and D130 - are basically legit, we are going to get the vested interests trying to discredit others who are actually playing by the rules. Nobody has to spend 35k for a decent legit Defender. You can get one for less than half that. If you want it pimped to beach runner status or you want a killer turbo, you can get it upgraded for a few grand more. There is no secret, if it is 25 years old, fill out your paperwork and it is legit. Nothing illegal, no mystery from Maine to Montana (poor bat fastards in kalifornia might have problems though If you want to upgrade it to a beach runner and sell it, that’s legit. Import that 300 TDi, TD5 or Puma 2.4 with 6-speed gearbox and pop her right in. Nothing ambiguous - it is legit. I’d like to hear from Mike why he can do it but nobody else can. Pity for all those who think they are still going to get 45k for a rusted NAS 110 or 60k for a recontorted NAS Defender with a supercharged 4.6 lump on a long chassis.

If somebody has a 110 with a 109 VIN it is fraud. If somebody has a ’93 or ‘98 110 with ambiguous paperwork it is most likely a fraud. Basically anybody selling a post 1984 Defender, -with the exception of a *bone stock* NAS Rover- is selling a song and dance including the vehicles from ECR as ECR has admitted. You can choose to believe the song and dance but cross your fingers that you don’t get challenged. I’d hate to be sitting on a ECR “beach runner” with an envious neighbor.

BTW - The DOT and EPA rules are bollocks but they make rules. Only a fool would justify them. It's just bureaucrats and businessmen trying to compromise on mediocrity. The USA does not have the safest or most economical cars on the road. Most other countries that can afford to pave their roads have more efficient and/or safer cars. Those who can’t afford to pave their roads drive Rovers at their own peril☺. A 2009 D90/D110 is safer, more environmentally friendly, more efficient, and all around more politically correct than a 1983 90/110, yet the ’83 is legal and the ’09 is not. No need to go into the hazards or environmental nightmares of series vehicles.

I own and drive vehicles more dangerous than a 2CV, including a few Rovers (even federalized!), and that’s my business. If I end up like a fly on my own windscreen… well I’ve got problems and the last of my worries is some prat suing me. If some idiot drives a 2CV into my Hummer, well then the 2CV owner has some problems and only a retard wouldn’t understand that driving a tin can into a brick is trouble. Get over it, if you own a Rover or 2CV and you are worried about safety than drive a Merc sedan or a Prius depending on your budget or righteousness. Don’t sue somebody else when you make a mess of yourself at an accident.

A 2CV or older Rover, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, VW, Mini, etc, are death traps which should be clear the moment you step into one. Most of my cars are death traps (Rovers and other odd old cars) and if I decide that’s the way I want to die (which is most likely because I don’t even maintain them) so be it. Lets get over the “Nanny State.” Anybody on a Series Land Rover list who lectures about safety is a prat and hypocrite. Sorry for sounding like a jerk but come on… safety lectures on a Series Land Rover list? What next, celibacy lectures on a girlie site? If you get your knickers in a twist over a few sods driving in unsafe Rovers than perhaps you should get off the road because they will be the least of your worries. One drunk in a street legal German sedan can make minced meat carnage out of most DOT approved vehicles on the road today. We won’t even mention the sober teenager in a Hummer that missed a turn who will be scrambled but his/her victim will be an omlet.

[Bertha]

Scubarova-Interesting first post. Truth is no one gives a rats A$$ about this whole topic and whether it is legal or not except the few here in this thread who what to come across as being the moral compass of Rovers. Bottom line is, if you dont like the way ECR builds their trucks, dont buy one. If you dont trust the Red Mountain Rovers-dont buy from them(not an endorsement for either company). Just realize that plenty of people out there are buying these type trucks and enjoying them, while a few folks here are crying about how wrong it is. To each his own, but I would rather enjoy a truck my way than adhere to some questionable laws.

[JimCT]

I agree with the last post. But really, buy the time you have replaced the chassis, the bulkhead, put in a different running gear, a non LR engine, RR axles....etc, etc, does it matter that you have kept the tag with the VIN on it? Forget legally, but how is in reality it any different than what ECR and others are doing?

[thixon]

Bertha,

Amen.

Are those of you that are upset by all this concerned about possible safety issues. Or, are you just mad because someone who is less risk averse than yourself has something you want? And don't give me the argument that "unethical vendors are selling illegal goods to uneducated consumers." Last time I checked, "buyer beware" is how we roll here.

The system is easily worked, and its always been that way. No one here should be surprised by this. In GA, no title or registration is required on a vehicle over 15 years old. All you need is a bill of sale. Outside of Atlanta, no inspection is needed (inside ATL, emmisions inspection is required). On one occasion, I borrowed a pen, and asked for a piece of paper from the counter girl at the DMV to write out a bill of sale for an MGA I'd bought from a buddy. All I had to do was prove that I'd insured the car, which was done via a phone call. Make all the jokes you want about GA being a backwards arse state full of stupid rednecks. Guess what... they're everywhere, and if someone wants to get something done, all they have to do is identify that one idiot to exploit to aid them in their quest.

If it really bugs you that someone has an illegal truck, then bust them.

Spend more time trying not to be an idiot, and less time complaining about them.

[yorker]

I agree with the last post. But really, buy the time you have replaced the chassis, the bulkhead, put in a different running gear, a non LR engine, RR axles....etc, etc, does it matter that you have kept the tag with the VIN on it? Forget legally, but how is in reality it any different than what ECR and others are doing?

Even more to the point- who cares!? This sort of endless ****house lawyering I'd expect on Dweebweb or even d90.com but here? If it isn't your truck or one you are considering buying then what does it matter? It doesn't belong on a Series LR tech forum.