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Thread: The plot tickens (series III backfire/idle, brakes)

  1. #21
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    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenmeanie View Post
    Someone has upgraded your truck to a set of 11" drums from a 109. They do increase stopping power but require a certain skill to bleed properly. You can either modify the line routing to move the bleed screw to the top or remove the backing palte, brakes and all and hold it in an orientation that puts the bleed nipple at the high point of the system.
    Thanks Green - the green bible doesn't detail that in the 109 section - is that the standard way to bleed a 109 setup?

  2. #22
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    Southern Maine
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    Nick... as stated earlier...someone has either upgraded your front brakes or maybe it was an axle swap.
    Either way.. I did the same brake upgrage to my Ser III 88 though I've never driven it yet. still slowly rebuilding

    In fact the swap I did was exactly what the LR factory did in the 1980's to the Ser III 88's (see pics below)
    Pre-june 1980 UK 88's had Frt & Rear 10" drums with a larger front wheel cylinder. F&R drums and brake shoes were the same.

    The upgraded 88 system is basically this...
    Use 4 cyl 109 11 drums, backing plates, shoes and dual wheel cylinders up front
    use the orignal 10 drums, backing plates , shoes in the rear, BUT use the original 88" 10 brake FRONT wheel cylinders. The larger dia wheel cylinder will then boost the rear brakes.
    Now to handle the larger rear wheel cylinders and the 11 dual cylinders.. you need to upgrade to a dual 109 brake master cylinder inorder to have the correct pedal volume. You might want to find out what other compnenets you have in the rear and the master cyl.



    Whenever I have a stuck bleader the use of a good penetrating oil is step one. Kroil-oil, PB blaster or Howes Lubricant seem to me to be the best.. WD 40 has never done much for me.

    You can get a new bleeder, so if it round over with your 6 (SIX) point socket or wrench... you'll need try really tight visegrips. No 12 point tools to be used here. If you are successfull... here are some bleeding tips..

    http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6635

    http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php?t=166880


    Ref Material for brake setups. though the sketch seems to show the 109 dual cylinders 90 degrees out of position???

    http://picasaweb.google.com/88series...eat=directlink

  3. #23
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    Aug 2009
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    Nick,

    It'd help if you kept posting to the same thread. That way it'd be easier to reference what you've already said and done.

    Take a pic of your dizzy from directly above, with the rotor button off. It kinda looks like the low tension lead is attached to the condenser mount. If that's the case then the points aren't opening the circuit to the coil, which wouldn't allow the coil to fire. With the "-" side of the coil permanently grounded the coil would get really hot from the really strong magnetic field it would be producing.

    The low tension lead is suppose to be attached to the points so that it isolates the "-" side of the coil from ground. That way the coil's "-" side is isolated from ground EXCEPT when the points are closed. The condenser should be attached to the same place on the points as the low tension lead.

    Here's a sight that explains automotive ignition and it has pictures.
    http://www.2carpros.com/how_does_it_work/ignition.htm


    Brakes
    On the bleeder screws make sure you use a six sided closed end wrench to prevent stripping off the sides of the bleeder screws. PB Blaster is better to loosen frozen threads then WD-40, IMHO.

    Some friendly advice. Take LOTS of pictures before you take stuff apart. Then you'll have a visual reminder of what it's suppose to look like.

    Cheers
    Walker
    1968 Series IIA-"Ronnie"
    88" SW, 2.25L Petrol, LHD

  4. #24
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    Apr 2009
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    Bozeman MT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nium View Post
    Nick,

    It'd help if you kept posting to the same thread. That way it'd be easier to reference what you've already said and done.

    Take a pic of your dizzy from directly above, with the rotor button off. It kinda looks like the low tension lead is attached to the condenser mount.
    Thanks Nium - I'll make a point to stick to this thread only from now on.

    I'll work on a better pic tonight, but if it was wired up wrong (I have not changed a thing) why would it have run well for 4 weeks? That site with the animated pics is great - thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by TJR View Post
    Now to handle the larger rear wheel cylinders and the 11 dual cylinders.. you need to upgrade to a dual 109 brake master cylinder inorder to have the correct pedal volume.
    Does that mean this one that I just installed won't work?
    http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-4...s-iia-iii.aspx
    And if not - what about the single circuit orignal 88 cylinder that I replaced - was it just undersized? It was stopping fine until it spring a leak.

    Regarding the stuck bleeder - it is fully stripped, now that I've gotten through the rust I can see that its basically round. I ordered an 88 wheel cylinder before I realized that it was an 11" wheel. So now what do I need - a 109 front cylinder or can I use the 88 cylinder that I ordered?

  5. #25
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    Aug 2009
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    chester, nj
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    Nick, just my two cents, but if you are going to attempt this yourself I think you should concentrate on one problem at a time. Regarding the brakes, I think you had better determine whether or not you can break free all of the fittings and nuts. That will determine what parts you will need to get. There's no point in rushing to order a brake cylinder if it's the wrong one. Also if you can't free the brake line compression nut or the mounting nuts, then you will need a new line, fittings, and nuts in order to proceed. Once again, make sure you have the proper wrenches to do the job or else you will be rounding over all of the nuts. Pretty soon you will end up replacing the entire brake system.
    Last edited by kevkon; 08-27-2009 at 09:34 AM. Reason: spelling

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevkon View Post
    I think you had better determine whether or not you can break free all of the fittings and nuts.
    Well, one can of penetrating oil and blaster and two days later and I still cannot get the lugs off, even with a breaker bar. I think the shop that put the tires on played a cruel joke...

    Part of the problem is the crappy lug wrench the came with the truck, it keeps popping off. I checked the auto store and couldnt find one large enough. Going to call RN in the morning and see if they have one...

    I'm still calling around to find a local shop but not having much luck. I'd prefer to get it knocked out for a reasonable lump sum rather than me buying tools like an air compressor and impact wrench just to get the lugs off.

  7. #27
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    Did the brakes go out Nick? I'm asking because I'm sort of skipping ahead in this thread and my first thought is that you should just concentrate on one job at the time. If the brakes still work then I'd say table them (American version ) until you get the motor running. Then come back to them later.

    As for going to a shop, sure you can go for that option but I wouldn't advise it. These trucks do like maintenance and the sooner you can pick up the steps the sooner you'll be able to see your way though these troubles. Besides, it's all very easy.

    The coil won't send a charge until the points open. Of course if the points are not really closing, or never closing you'll never trigger the coil either. I'm thinking that the pitting on the points could be a problem or maybe you adjusted the points incorrectly so here is my advise.

    With the keys out of the ignition, pop the top of the distributor and rotor and look at where the lobe is on the points. Make sure the lobe is not at the point where it would be opening the points. So long as that's not the case and the points are fully closed then take a piece of fine sand paper, fold it in half so the sandy side is on both sides, open the points with a screwdriver and then place the sand paper in between the points. Once you've got it in there, you want try and sand the points clean. You may end up just pulling the sand paper out, reopening the points, replacing the sand paper and then pulling it out again. Keep doing that until you are pretty confident that the points are clean. You may need to use a clean piece of sand paper to see if it comes out dirty. Once you see that it comes out clean, you should be pretty close to having clean points.

    Next you want to adjust the points. You will need to turn the motor over a little bit to get the lobe to open the points. To do this you want to make sure the parking brake is on and that the truck is out of gear. Next, grab your starter handle and insert it into the front crank position, or if you don't have that just grab the belts. Turn the engine little by little until you see the lobe is opening the points at pretty much the most open you can get it. This is the position you need to have the engine at to set the points.

    I can't remember the size that the points need to be set at off the top of my head right now but you can just use the cover of a matchbook as your gauge. Take that matchbook cover and see if it will slide between the opening of the points. If it does, then does it slip through without any resistance (gap is too big)? If you can't get the matchbook cover in there then the points gap is set too small. Either way you find it, you will need to take a small screwdriver and loosen the set screw. Loosen it just enough so that the points will adjust but not so much that the assembly just goes way loose. This is a bit of a fine art and will just help you make the fine adjustments. If you can't get it right then you'll just need a second screwdriver to adjust/hold the points as you take your measurements with the matchbook cover. To adjust the points you will see two small grooves in the body of the points assembly and the base of the distributor. It's just big enough for a medium sized screwdriver to catch both sides. Use that point as a lever to adjust the points as you are opening and closing the points to perfection. Once you've go that right, keep the points in position while you tighten the set screw back down again. Don't tighten down too hard or you'll strip the set screw. Just make it good and snug.

    Bingo you are done setting the points.

    Put everything back together and make sure all the wires are connected. Be sure you haven't forgotten the trigger wire going from the distributor to the negative side of the coil. I always bump mine off in this operation and it's always the thing I forget.

    You should be good to go now. At this point we can safely say your points are adjusted and that they shouldn't be the point of your problem.

    You can't kill the coil by cranking the motor with the distributor cap off. If it was working before all of this, I'd doubt it's broken now. So don't loose too much sleep over that.

    Let us know your results.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickDawson View Post
    Thanks Green - the green bible doesn't detail that in the 109 section - is that the standard way to bleed a 109 setup?
    The manual does not detail this becuase it is not concerned with design flaws and instead tells you how to deal with the system as originally supplied.

    The problem with the 11" set up is that you are trying to bleed air out of the system at the low point which makes it very difficult to purge the upper cylinder. The art of the game is to make the bleed nipple the high point.

    The recommendation to reroute the brake lines is just knowledge from running this set up on a 101 for a few years and now on my 109. It is a common trick, cheap and simple to do and makes bleeding the big drums easy.

    If you don't feel comfortable making brake lines the other method is just bitter experience but more of a pain because you have to strip the brakes to do it.

  9. #29
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    Oops. Just saw the part that you have ordered the new ignition parts. Okay. You can skip that part about cleaning your points. Just be sure you adjust the new ones correctly and let us know how it goes.

  10. #30
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    Default Points

    I'll work on a better pic tonight, but if it was wired up wrong (I have not changed a thing) why would it have run well for 4 weeks? That site with the animated pics is great - thanks
    Sorry Nick, I wasn't sure if you had took the points apart or not. I looked at the other pics of your Rover you've got on flickr.com. The other pic of the dizzy, IMG-0600, made me realize the wire I thought was the low tension lead was just a ground bond wire to the condenser. My bad.

    Check that your points are opening it seems like they might not be. They should open 0.014" - 0.016" or as Tim wrote about the thickness of a matchbook cover when the following arm of the points is on the peak of a cam lobe on the dizzy.

    I'd doubt the coil is dead. Cranking a few seconds with the cap off shouldn't kill the coil it doesn't have any electronics in it to fry.

    To check for spark from the coil.

    Turn the ignition on. Have your red friend do his screwdriver thing again , I've done it to check for spark too, and flick the points open with a screwdriver or something similar. You should get a spark. Points are just a simple switch to open and close the connection of the coil to ground.

    Your points and condenser look pretty new, by the pics. The points more then likely just need to be adjusted.

    Make sure that break in the insulation, of the low tension lead as seen in pic IMG_0600, isn't grounding out to the dizzy body and that the wire inside isn't broken. If it is grounding out. The coil would get really hot by being constantly energized. The coil is suppose to be continually turned on and off by the points really quickly too. Engines run at a few thousand RPM , right?

    That crude on the spark plug electrodes inside the dizzy cap, IMG-0602, shouldn't be there. It will inhibit maximum spark from getting to the plugs. Sand it off with a semi-fine or medium grit sand paper. Of course you can compare it to the new cap when you get it.

    Glad you liked the auto ignition site I thought the pics might help. If not I felt the animation was neat.

    Man I get long winded.

    Cheers
    Walker
    1968 Series IIA-"Ronnie"
    88" SW, 2.25L Petrol, LHD

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