My 73 Series 3 Project

[ninescorpions]

So pretty clear the bearings need replacing along with the races. The question I am having now is related to the hub. In the below picture, you can see where the race mounts...there is a pretty good score mark that can be felt with a finger. However is it the case since the races are tight in the hub (it took the expected amount of ground and pound with a punch to get both races out, that the hub is still ok? Really not excited about replacing hubs, but for sure races and bearings are needed.

The RF hub would get warm, but not as hot as the LF. I have to assume the same condition is present (meaning the bearing is starting to give up), but just not as far along as the LF. Either way, I am going to do the whole axle.

[ninescorpions]

Fuel Update: I also just spent some time playing with the fuel sender. I pulled the new sender and then measured the gauge connector to sender chassis (metal plate). Readings are as follows:

Actual fuel in tank: ~1/4 tank

Original sender
Fuel Reading on dash gauge: 1/32 of a tank (touching the top of "E")
Resistance range on sender (out of tank): ~19 Ohms to 289 Ohms

New sender
Fuel Reading on dash gauge: 1/8 of a tank
Resistance range on sender (out of tank): ~17 Ohms to 309 Ohms
Low Fuel range: Open resistance -> 0 Ohms when float is low enough (working fine)

Conclusion: I cannot say there is something wrong with the new sender yet and the old one seems to be working properly. I saw this truck register the right fuel level twice and that was when I first got it running. The current variable remains the new gas tank (grounding mechanism). I will try again to run a new ground to the battery for both the new sender and old and repeat the test. If that does not work, then I have to head towards the voltage regulator. I see that my water temp gauge is in the "cold" bar even when the engine is warm. Lumpydog, you mentioned that they are wired to the same regulator.

Where does your temp gauge sit when the motor is warm with a 74 C thermostat?

[lumpydog]

So pretty clear the bearings need replacing along with the races. The question I am having now is related to the hub. In the below picture, you can see where the race mounts...there is a pretty good score mark that can be felt with a finger. However is it the case since the races are tight in the hub (it took the expected amount of ground and pound with a punch to get both races out, that the hub is still ok? Really not excited about replacing hubs, but for sure races and bearings are needed.

The RF hub would get warm, but not as hot as the LF. I have to assume the same condition is present (meaning the bearing is starting to give up), but just not as far along as the LF. Either way, I am going to do the whole axle.

Damn nice detective work. You are spot on, based on what I see. New races and bearings (they are delivered paired) will clear this issue right up. Pack the new bearings in some good grease. As Mark pointed out, take the right care not to over-tighten the hub nuts - use a dial gauge.

Don't worry about the wear under the races - as long as the races are seated properly, that won't matter. Freezing the races before you drift them in will help. Def do both sides of the axle.

Dial gauge in action. Very easy to use and measure end-float with:

[lumpydog]

Fuel Update: I also just spent some time playing with the fuel sender. I pulled the new sender and then measured the gauge connector to sender chassis (metal plate). Readings are as follows:

Actual fuel in tank: ~1/4 tank

Original sender
Fuel Reading on dash gauge: 1/32 of a tank (touching the top of "E")
Resistance range on sender (out of tank): ~19 Ohms to 289 Ohms

New sender
Fuel Reading on dash gauge: 1/8 of a tank
Resistance range on sender (out of tank): ~17 Ohms to 309 Ohms
Low Fuel range: Open resistance -> 0 Ohms when float is low enough (working fine)

Conclusion: I cannot say there is something wrong with the new sender yet and the old one seems to be working properly. I saw this truck register the right fuel level twice and that was when I first got it running. The current variable remains the new gas tank (grounding mechanism). I will try again to run a new ground to the battery for both the new sender and old and repeat the test. If that does not work, then I have to head towards the voltage regulator. I see that my water temp gauge is in the "cold" bar even when the engine is warm. Lumpydog, you mentioned that they are wired to the same regulator.

Where does your temp gauge sit when the motor is warm with a 74 C thermostat?

Ok - given your temp gauge is also off, I'd shift focus to the voltage stabilizer (not voltage regulator - that's different) - stabilizers are prone to failure. It's a small device that is mounted to the back of the speedo. It shifts the voltage to 10V down from 12V. Basically it has two inputs marked "B" (I think referring to battery) and two outputs marked "I" (I think for instruments). In any case - the B terminals are for the 12V power source - dark green. And the "I" terminals are the 10V output to the temp and fuel gauges - light green. Pretty simple.

The way these are typically setup on a Series 3 - one 12V dark green into "B" and one 10V light green from "I" out to the fuel gauge and jumped over to the temp gauge. You can get an "analog" voltage stabilizer but I find the Moss motors "solid state" ones (you want negative) to be better, in that they deliver a rock solid 10 volts - no ifs ands or buts. Buy a few of them to have a spare. My money is on this solution to get your temp and fuel gauges back in the game.

My temp gauge (82 deg Celcius) reads dead middle at operating temp - the needle sits right on the "N".

[cnfowler]

How to use the dial gauge to set end float.

https://youtu.be/bn3ADa06MZI

Colin

[ninescorpions]

How to use the dial gauge to set end float.

https://youtu.be/bn3ADa06MZI

Colin

Absolutely! I love those tool box videos...I think I have watched them all about 10 times...lol.

[cnfowler]

He does a great job of explaining everything and his videos are well put together.


Colin

[SafeAirOne]

How to use the dial gauge to set end float.

https://youtu.be/bn3ADa06MZI

Good video for hub end-float. I didn't like the dial indicator setup he briefly showed for the brake disc runout though. Of course, that shouldn't really matter for us...

[ninescorpions]

Damn nice detective work. You are spot on, based on what I see. New races and bearings (they are delivered paired) will clear this issue right up. Pack the new bearings in some good grease. As Mark pointed out, take the right care not to over-tighten the hub nuts - use a dial gauge.

Don't worry about the wear under the races - as long as the races are seated properly, that won't matter. Freezing the races before you drift them in will help. Def do both sides of the axle.

Dial gauge in action. Very easy to use and measure end-float with

I see on some of the later models, that they first tighten the inner nut to 61nm to "set the bearing". Then they back it off 90 degrees and use the dial gauge to set the correct float (well some don't even do that, but you get the sequence). In the particular video I was watching, it was a Discovery. Is there a need to "set the bearing" on the series Rover? Or can I just go to hand tight or slightly farther and starting working with the dial gauge.

[lumpydog]

Follow that worksop manual closely. It states "spin the hub vigorously causing the bearing rollers to settle..." it goes on to say "It is necessary to spin the hub every time before checking end float...". There is a sequence described that will get you there. It's not too complex. I've found that the nuts can be set/undone by hand when done right. The box spanner is really not needed but makes it easy to manage the nuts.

You're right that some can just do it by feel and the amount of turn/back off of the nut. I prefer to follow the manual and call it done.

[ninescorpions]

where do you see that content? I am on section 9:2 and it states (under "to replace hub"): "slide the hut onto the stub axle and fit the inner tab-washer and the adjusting nut. Adjust the hub end float to between .004 to .006 inch (.10 to 15mm). Fit the outer tabwasher and locknut. Check the float after tighting the locknut. The end float on Series 3 models should be .002 to .004 inch (.05 to .10mm)"

What section are you in? Perhaps more detail is being shown where I am not looking.

Note I have a Brooklands Book.

[lumpydog]

where do you see that content? I am on section 9:2 and it states (under "to replace hub"): "slide the hut onto the stub axle and fit the inner tab-washer and the adjusting nut. Adjust the hub end float to between .004 to .006 inch (.10 to 15mm). Fit the outer tabwasher and locknut. Check the float after tighting the locknut. The end float on Series 3 models should be .002 to .004 inch (.05 to .10mm)"

What section are you in? Perhaps more detail is being shown where I am not looking.

Note I have a Brooklands Book.

It's from the 2A Green Bible. I can take pictures later and load here for your reference if that would help.

As an aside, I've found that the 2A Green Bible and Series 3 Green Bible are generally the same with regard to instruction, with the Series 3 GB evolving some of the methodology and being more concise. Be aware that some of the specs are different between the 2A and Series 3 Green Bible. Because the Series 3 Green Bible is readily available electronically and I have a print copy of the 2A GB, I cross reference them often before tackling a job.

[lumpydog]

Looks like I've hit my limit on uploading pictures in these forums... PM me your email address and I can send them.

Rovers North - what's up with the cap on image uploads?

[Edit] Here you go.

[ninescorpions]

Been a while since I was on here...once again had to put the Rover on hold to deal with some other items. But got some good news and some bad news. Let's start with the good. I have successfully installed new bearings in both the LF and RF hubs. As shown in the previous pics, the LF bearing was shot. Once I got the RF hub off, I found out that the outer bearing was actually starting to come apart. I was hearing metal on metal when I would rotate the hub...so I am quite sure this is what I was hearing. The inner hub looked pretty good actually, but it just like the others has gone to be with God. It took some time to get handy with the dial gauge and figure the right tightness of the inner nut float vs float change once the locking washer and outer nut was installed. For me, I needed to be around .008in float with just the inner nut. Once the locking washer and outer nut was installed, I was right around .004in. So both hubs are completely rebuilt and sound fantastic (meaning I don't hear anything...lol).

Some more good news. Another thread was talking about the brake springs and symptoms associated with them being installed incorrectly. Considering I already had a weak pedal until pumped 4 or so times...I went and had a look while the LF hub was off. Sure enough...my local shop has attached the two shoes together. I don't blame them so much on this...but vey glad I read these forums! See below the incorrect install...

[ninescorpions]

One of the hubs also had the bottom black spring on the outer side of the shoes. So I also fixed this. I also found that you have to have the right orientation of the spring hook. Meaning...which way it hooks around the posts. If the hook of the spring is going around the post upside down, the spring itself will sit lower on the back plate and actually touch the hub. I found this because when I first installed the hub...I would hear light metal grinding sounds. I was like, what? These are new bearings. But then I found that the sound was actually the spring rubbing against the hub. I flipped it over and that solved it.

Now my shoes sit out farther than before which is great. My weak pedal was definitely related to this. However they are sitting out too far. I have adjusted down the leading shoe. But the trailing shoe is seated against the cylinder and only has the tension of the bottom black spring to hold it up (which is correct). However it seems there is too much pressure from the cylinder to allow the brake to "rest" far enough up to allow the drum on. I was able to get the RF drum on, but had to manually compress the trailing shoe towards the cylinder. As you would expect, it is dragging the drum. I know there are a few issues that could potentially cause this...I have them listed below. I guess it is now trying to figure out what I do not know:

Issue: Brake shoes are "resting" too far out causing the diameter of the virtual ring (outer edge of shoes if you drew a line around simulating where the drum would go).

Cause 1: Brake shoes mixed up (leading vs trailing).
This has been validated...leading shoe has the post for the spring. Trailing shoe has no post
Cause 2: Incorrectly installed springs
As already posted...this is how I got to this point. Actually put the springs on right
Cause 3: Defective/broken/wrong brake cylinder
The shop did put new cylinders on all four corners. I confirmed with RN that these are right and the only difference in the cylinders on all four corners is where the brake line connectors (physical parameters and function are the same)
Cause 4: System needs rebleeding
I have not yet taken off the rear hubs, but pretty sure I will find those springs also wrong. The plan is to take off the rear hubs, validate and fix as needed. Once that is done...then I want to rebleed everything.
Cause 5: Brake adjuster
This has also been validated. Regardless of how far in our out the adjuster is changes...the outer virtual dimension is still greater than that of the drum. If I adjust in the leading shoe...it forces the trailing shoe out at more or less the same rate. Result...the overall outer dimension remains the same.
Cause 6: Brake drum out of spec
I have measure the brake drum (which is new)...and inner dimension is exactly 11". My old drum measures 11 1/32" due to wear.
Cause 7: Brake show is not square against drum...meaning there is high point causing the contact =
I have validated that the entire shoe is evenly installed on the backing plate and has the same dimension deficiency across the length of the shoe. If I were to remove all braking material from the shoe...it would then slide on the drum. But not in one spot...it would be needed end to end.

What else am I missing? The situation is so severe on the LF...I cannot even compress the trailing shoe enough to get the drum on. I was barely able to do this on the RF. Is it a matter of releasing all brake fluid pressure from the system and starting from scratch? I will upload another photo as soon as I am able. Uploader was saying I was capped or something.