"Barn Find" locked frozen wheels

[artpeck]

New to the board and new to series ownership so thanks in advance for your help.
I am acquiring a 73 Series III '88 for restoration. One owner, 31k miles. Very solid on every dimension but has not been started or moved since 1996. First order of business is to get it flat bed towed to my garage and first problem is that it won't easily roll, at least one wheel is frozen and resists being pushed. Engine needs TLC before I to start it as well so I am stuck with pushing and winching to move the vehicle.

The owner set about to replace the brake reservoir so the brakes have no fluid and he thinks this is applying then brakes Unless I am missing something no brake fluid would mean no brakes and I am presuming one of many other things including shoes corroded to drums, parking brake stuck etc. I have however also already learned to never assume with a landie (have a '95 NAS defender also).
This weekend I am going to try to free things up and get this project going. I searched the forum and found a few things but I also wanted to ask if
anyone had any tips or thoughts on getting the truck moving. I am assuming some elbow grease, wd-40, a mallet etc and hopefully things will free up.

Thanks in advance. I am sure I will be back here many times as this project unfolds. And happy to share progress if anyone is interested. All help appreciated.

[amcordo]

Hey Art!

Welcome to the board! I can't help you with your issue, but I'm sure someone will come along with an opinion to share.

In the meantime post some pics and yes, please do keep us posted on your progress!


New to the board and new to series ownership so thanks in advance for your help.
I am acquiring a 73 Series III '88 for restoration. One owner, 31k miles. Very solid on every dimension but has not been started or moved since 1996. First order of business is to get it flat bed towed to my garage and first problem is that it won't easily roll, at least one wheel is frozen and resists being pushed. Engine needs TLC before I to start it as well so I am stuck with pushing and winching to move the vehicle.

The owner set about to replace the brake reservoir so the brakes have no fluid and he thinks this is applying then brakes Unless I am missing something no brake fluid would mean no brakes and I am presuming one of many other things including shoes corroded to drums, parking brake stuck etc. I have however also already learned to never assume with a landie (have a '95 NAS defender also).
This weekend I am going to try to free things up and get this project going. I searched the forum and found a few things but I also wanted to ask if
anyone had any tips or thoughts on getting the truck moving. I am assuming some elbow grease, wd-40, a mallet etc and hopefully things will free up.

Thanks in advance. I am sure I will be back here many times as this project unfolds. And happy to share progress if anyone is interested. All help appreciated.

[LR Max]

First make sure you aren't in gear/parking brake on or something simple like that.

Could be frozen brakes or frozen wheel cylinder. If its just frozen brakes, you can temporarily remove the drum (since brakes aren't working anyway). For drum removal, first there is a large screw on the drum face. Remove this. Then apply LOTS of hammer to get drum off (that is, if simply pulling on it doesn't work).

If its the drum, then you are done! Bolt the wheel back on. If the wheel bearings are seized, you'll need to dig a little further in. I'd recommend procurement of of a Haynes manual or green bible.

Basically, you'll have to disassemble the entire hub and probably remove the spindle. Once that is done, if the bearings won't come out then you'll have to take it to a machine shop to have it all pressed out. FYI, the NAPA "distribution center" in larger cities have a machine shop. Basically, you need a press.

[lrdukdog]

Get the "Green Bible" you will need it!!! Like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Land-Rover-Series-III-Official-Repair-Operation-Manual-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem588980ee62QQitemZ38026 4050274QQptZMotorsQ5fManualsQ5fLiterature

or this
http://cgi.ebay.com/Land-Rover-Series-2-2A-and-3-1958-85-Service-and-Repai-/320582077934?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item4aa42e4dee

or this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1971-1978-Land-Rover-Series-III-Owners-Manual-3-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c151fe070QQitemZ12061 3494896QQptZMotorsQ5fManualsQ5fLiterature

You will need them,
Jim Wolf

[gambrinus]

Is it in gear? Try to get the xfer case into N see if you can rock it back and forth. If the tranny / engine is locked up, you can just drop the drive shafts and it should roll free.

Good Luck

[rwollschlager]

once you get the brakes sorted, pull all of the spark plugs and put some Marvel Mystery Oil sit in each of the cylinders. After a week or two you should be able to turn the engine over with the crank or with the starter. Just make sure you get all the oil out before you put the plugs back in.

-Rob

[artpeck]

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. Keep them coming.

A few more facts. The truck is 70 miles away so I inspected it once but will know more when I see it again later this week. At the moment I am going on the description of the owner. I did hand crank the engine and it turned smoothly. He has maintained the fluids for the most part over the period it sat.
Appreciate the advice on the brakes. Fornall I know it could be in gear or the parking brake or must stiff. My intent is to try rolling it myself after confirming it is in neutral etc and see what happens. Jack and test each wheel and assess the extent of the problem. Fortunately while it has been stored outside it is a fairly dry climate in northern California. Stay tuned, more to come. Any other thoughts also appreciated.

[LR Max]

I will say, CHECK THE BULKHEAD AND FRAME. I don't care where it has been, if these items are toasted then there are problems.

Best thing to do is jack the crap out of the frame and bulkhead with a hammer. If its rotten, you'll know it real quick.

Bring a little air compressor/tire filling device. Helps when the tires have air in them, I am sure you understand this concept.

PB Blaster, brings some...I recommend you just go ahead and buy 4 cases of the darn stuff since you are doing a restoration.

Brake cleaner = bestest way to clean anything metal with oil/dirt/nasty on it. Like PB blaster, comes in a handy can. Procure lots of this unless you have a parts washer (if you have a parts washer, go ahead and procure some, its multipurpose awesomeness).

Wheel lugs are 1 1/16" or 27mm. Bring your breaker bar and a cheater bar. Makes things go a lot easier for teardown.

The wheel bearing nuts are 2-1/16". Go ahead and buy a 2-1/16" socket. Northern tool has em and the price is cheap. Mind you, it is probably going to be for 3/4" drive, so unless you have that, be prepared to buy a converter to make it work with 1/2" drive stuff. Also this socket is cheaper than the rover specific one, beefier AND you can put a torque wrench on it. For wheel bearings, I use the same specs as a Dana 60. Easier than trying to gauge end float and it works just as well.

Jack and a piece of wood for it to sit on. Jacks will sink into the ground. A good hydro bottle jack is solid. Jackstands are too.

Oh, one thing I did on a Ford 9" once with bad brakes (brake shoes were engaged and couldn't get the drum off). I took a torch and heated up the drum. After a couple of minutes with the torch I was able to break it loose and knock it off the hub. So yeah, a torch would be a good thing to bring and a good thing to generally have for your restoration. Just a simple handheld propane/benzene or whatever the cool kids are using these days will work.

[crankin]

I get a little sick every time I hear about checking the frame a bulkhead.

I never want to go through that mess again. Please, for my health, check the bulkhead and frame for rot. Please, I can't read any more about frame off resto and bulkhead repair. I have nightmares of my own restoration enough...I don't want to dream about yours, too.

And don’t listen to amcordo…all he thinks about is women and making his land rover into a Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome vehicle.

[artpeck]

Frame and bulkhead already thoroughly checked. Solid but thanks for the call out. And appreciate all the ideas and suggestions. I am hoping for something simple on the lockup but planning for the worst.

[amcordo]

I get a little sick every time I hear about checking the frame a bulkhead.

I never want to go through that mess again. Please, for my health, check the bulkhead and frame for rot. Please, I can't read any more about frame off resto and bulkhead repair. I have nightmares of my own restoration enough...I don't want to dream about yours, too.

And don’t listen to amcordo…all he thinks about is women and making his land rover into a Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome vehicle.


Two go in, one comes out.

[kwd509]

I am also pursuing a 2a recovery this weekend- IN east tennessee have similar concerns with moving the long dormant beast. But am I correct in understanding that if I disengage the engine from the drive train, I shield the engine from the forces of moving it and can then literally drag it if necessary with 2 come-alongs.... If that is the case I want to focus my contingency planning on getting it in neutral or disconnecting the drive train- which looks pretty easy - four 9/16" bolts. Am I missing something here?
Like suggestions for PB blaster and mystery oil.

[LaneRover]

as you are pulling it, give a rap on the rim with a hammer. That is what has always freed up a frozen wheel for me.

(after of course making sure it isn't in gear or that the emergency brake is on)

[kwd509]

(after of course making sure it isn't in gear or that the emergency brake is on)

I hadn't considered the emergency brake. It had not been used for years when it was last driven, but since it has been sitting for so long I suppose at some point it's possible/likely that someone engaged it.....

if that is now: a) rusted & b) integral to gearbox,
would disconnecting driveshaft do it?
or is there another way to work around it?

[LaneRover]

When I moved my 65 109. I didn't think it was possible but the emergency brake still worked. It was not a rusted hunk of metal.

If it is then disconnecting the drive shaft or removing the axle half shafts would do the trick. (maybe even just removing one of the axle half shafts would be required)

[crankin]

I am also pursuing a 2a recovery this weekend- IN east tennessee have similar concerns with moving the long dormant beast. But am I correct in understanding that if I disengage the engine from the drive train, I shield the engine from the forces of moving it and can then literally drag it if necessary with 2 come-alongs.... If that is the case I want to focus my contingency planning on getting it in neutral or disconnecting the drive train- which looks pretty easy - four 9/16" bolts. Am I missing something here?
Like suggestions for PB blaster and mystery oil.

Where at in E. Tennessee. I might know of the truck... I am from a town outside of Chattanooga named Cleveland.

[LR Max]

And don’t listen to amcordo…all he thinks about is women and making his land rover into a Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome vehicle.

2 things:

A) If you are in ATL, we must have a drink.

B) I beat you to it: my truck already says "Mad Max" across the back :thumb-up:

@ kwd509, For your issue, I'd say just try to put the transmission in neutral. If not, then try transfer case neutral. Shouldn't mess up anything for the short distance you are moving it. If worse comes to worse you can disconnect the rear driveshaft.

[Terrys]

four 9/16" bolts.
They are 3/8"BSF.
I have moved dozens of rovers that have been sitting a LONG time, and never found one with a stuck ebrake, simply because they are plenty greasy inside them. Stuck brake levers, Yes, but not the drum/shoes. Nor I have I ever seen a wheel bearing sieze from sitting. Getting them to move really depends on the ground they are sitting on and how round the tires are. A half flat tire, with any age, is hard as a brick and doesn't willingly roll.
If it was left in gear, it may take a bit of tugging, especially with a S3, but never any difficulty putting the TC in neutral. A few planks may make rolling easier if you're trying to move across soft ground.

[jopa]

Frozen wheels...not too hard to free up without alot of fuss...Jack up the truck safely, take off the hub drive flange, loosen up the hub nuts...then shake the tire/wheel- even employ a BFH. I had to do this to a parts car that sat in a field for 30 plus years...it had sank almost up to the chassis in the soft soil. Terrible day....it was raining- 33 degrees outside...worst recovery Ive ever done...but freeing up the wheels was the easier part of it. J

[artpeck]

I am really appreciative and rather amazed by the collective chiming in here on this issue. Friday is the big day and I have a lot more confidence in going after this. Will let you all knownhow it goes and post a picture or two as well. Keep the ideas coming.

[kwd509]

It is in Lancing, Tennessee. I don't think it is near Cleveland TN-----
On a farm where I grew up........
google street view shows it sitting in a pasture- I haven't been there in 24 yrs.
Son saw the image compared it to the earlier 'before' photo from childhood and pleaded- Let's get it- after all we are going right by with a truck......

I'm keeping fingers crossed this can be done gracefully.

[kwd509]

To LR MAx
" 'd say just try to put the transmission in neutral. If not, then try transfer case neutral. Shouldn't mess up anything for the short distance you are moving it. If worse comes to worse you can disconnect the rear driveshaft."


That matches my thoughts exactly........
being a mechanical beginner I'm thinking of all the unexpected things that can happen.

[kwd509]

Artpeck,
I didn't intend to hijack the thread- but the input given to you was really quite helpful, and I became perhaps too enthusiastic.......hope that input given in response to my queries was helpful to you. I look forward to seeing your pictures. Good luck.

[BobJones]

I had the same problem at the beginning of my restoration, sat in a barn for years, 2 wheels totally locked up. I didn't want to tow it out and pull on the frame too much, so we freed the wheels first. One of the biggest pain in **s jobs of the whole restoration! I hope yours goes better. First I inflated the tires and I did pull it out of the holes it sank into, 5' or so. I then jacked it up, Used a torch to heat up the locked drums, beat the he*l out them, then dropped it and pulled it out of the barn. It dragged about 5' then all wheels turned free (relatively), noisy but moving. Getting the drums off will be sooooo much fun! But you say the frame and bulk head are good so you will have alot of fun and headaches but more fun then anything else. Good luck

[artpeck]

No worries at all about highjacking the thread. All interesting. As a side bar thankfully my rescue is sitting comfortably on a concrete pad rather than axle deep in a pasture. Thanks sounds romantic but ugly. Mine is also one that is staying in the family as the truck currently belongs to my brother in law's wife's uncle if that makes sense.

[kwd509]

Mine is also one that is staying in the family as the truck currently belongs to my brother in law's wife's uncle if that makes sense.

That counts for staying in the family. Looking forward to pictures.

[NRutterbush]

Artpeck,

You mention Northern CA. I'm in the general area. What city is your project in?

-Nate

[kwd509]

They are 3/8"BSF.


Your correction raises a very basic rover question......so I'm really glad you raised it.
you correct me on the size of the drive shaft bolts. I'm new to this and have yet to have a good grasp on what tools I'll need. I recently studied a rover belonging to a friend, who has used his 2a to plow a very tough driveway and for other farm chores, He has kept it going for years and when I asked him the drive shaft size, he indicated he had very few specialized tools and managed fine...... and then he noted that he had used a 9/16". I climbed under the truck and confirmed it seemed to fit well (there was a little play but I might not have noticed if I hadn't been attentive).

How specialized are the sizes and tools?
thanks.

[artpeck]

The truck is currently in the sacremento area. I am in the bay area.

Art

[Tim Smith]

When you are pulling it, if you happen to see a wheel going the opposite direction then it is stuck in gear. Worst case scenario is, pull the drive shaft and you are good do go. Otherwise, get it in neutral and you should be all set.

If there is a wheel that is stuck on and not moving in either direction, then try wrapping the rim with a large hammer or a sledge. Not so hard as to bend the rim but hard enough to try and bump the drum against the shoes and force them to come back in and free the wheel. If that doesn't work then you might want to jack up the offending wheel, take the wheel off and hit the drum at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock. Maybe it's 3 and 6 o'clock but again the theory is to knock the drums back in. If you get in this deep, then don't worry about cracking/shattering the drum as it's most likely going to be on your list of replace items on the truck.

[NRutterbush]

Well,

That location is tragic. If you were in the Merced / Modesto /Stockton area, I might be tempted to run up there and give you a hand loading up.

Sacramento is a little far for my holiday weekend taste, I spend enough time up there working.

If you end up in Fresno some time, let me know, and we can compare notes on projects.

I just got my "barn find" chassis back from the sandblaster today, and should be dropping it at the galvanizing shop tomorrow. I'll post some pictures under the original thread I started about it.

Laters,

Nate
-Fresno

[jac04]

Your correction raises a very basic rover question......so I'm really glad you raised it.
you correct me on the size of the drive shaft bolts. ...........and then he noted that he had used a 9/16". I climbed under the truck and confirmed it seemed to fit well (there was a little play but I might not have noticed if I hadn't been attentive).
There is a difference between bolt size and wrench size. Terrys advised that the bolts were 3/8", which is correct. The wrench size needed for these bolts is 9/16".

[artpeck]

I get the traffic fear. The word is that everyone will be on the road this weekend. I will post pictures and progress. Spent a lot of time in fresno but always over the thanksgiving weekend with kids in then state xc meet. Last is now a freshman in college so that timenhas passed. Thanks again for the help. I am sure I will be back as the project progresses.

[LR Max]

True. Hence why I traveled last night (yay working out of the office :D ).

How far are you traveling with the derelict rover? If it is about an hour, you should be fine. What are you towing it with?

[artpeck]

It is 70 miles. I found a guy with a flat bed who was willing to do the pick up. Seemed easier than dealing with a rental etc and for $150 not much more expensive. The was something appealing about the image of my d-90 towing an older sibling but practicality won out over romance at end of the day.

[NRutterbush]

If by flat bed, you mean tow-truck style flat bed, you don't need to worry about anything at all.

The winch on that style of truck is strong enough to drag your rover up on completely flat tires and seized brakes.

Quite often, those trucks have rollers in the deck to help vehicles along too.

If you mean a flat bed trailer, it should still go pretty well.

I think it is a good investment to pay someone to do that haul.

-Nate

[artpeck]

He will either show with a trailer or truck. And I know I can drag it but I would prefer it roll. Tires are full of air but have a flat spot. Anyway I am off there this morning and hope misery doesn't follow. I neglected to mentioned that it does have warn locking hubs on the front wheels installed when new by the dealer which should also help. Stay tuned.

[LR Max]

Meh on flatspot. My super swamper TSLs flat spot whenever I park the rig outside the sammich shop.

I'd recommend that if possible, try to put more air into the seized tire. That way it'll have less contact area with the ground/pavement. Thus, less friction thus, easier to drag.

Just a thought. Good luck. I hope you communicated A LOT of info to the tow truck driver. They like to know what they are dealing with up front. Makes their job easier since they can bring the correct equipment first time around.

[artpeck]

it turned out one wheel was frozen but a few taps on the rim (thanks for the suggestion) and it was turning. Brakes master cylinder replaced and brakes bleed it is ready for pickup tomorrow. Driver knows the whole routine but this should be an easy one. Couple of photos attached for anyone interested.

[I Leak Oil]

If by flat bed, you mean tow-truck style flat bed, you don't need to worry about anything at all.

The winch on that style of truck is strong enough to rip your rovers rusted chassis in half because of the completely flat tires and seized brakes.

There, fixed it for ya....:D

Artpeck, the truck "looks" good despite the plastic grill and dash...

[Terrys]

Your correction raises a very basic rover question......so I'm really glad you raised it.
you correct me on the size of the drive shaft bolts. I'm new to this and have yet to have a good grasp on what tools I'll need. I recently studied a rover belonging to a friend, who has used his 2a to plow a very tough driveway and for other farm chores, He has kept it going for years and when I asked him the drive shaft size, he indicated he had very few specialized tools and managed fine...... and then he noted that he had used a 9/16". I climbed under the truck and confirmed it seemed to fit well (there was a little play but I might not have noticed if I hadn't been attentive).

How specialized are the sizes and tools?
thanks.
It isn't so much a 'rover question', just generally accepted practice. Bolt sizes are determined by their shank diameter X thread (SAE and BS are either fine or coarse, and metric by the thread pitch)
The same size bolt can have different head and nut wrench sizes. There are "Heavy" headed bolts which are generally one size up from standard head sizes. There are many Whitworth bolts and nuts on theese trucks too, like the six nuts that hold the Ebrake drum, as an example. Whitworth wrenches aren't easily found (Proto and Snap-ON still sell them) if an SAE wrenches seems to fit, but loose, try using a six point instead of a 12 point box (or socket) so you don't just end up rounding out the flats.

[LR Max]

I must say, that rover is in better condition that I originally thought. Normally you find old rovers tucked back in the woods with doors half hanging off, deer living in them, etc.

This one actually seems like a good candidate.

[artpeck]

One owner from new. Interior is actually spotless. 31k documented miles. Obviously there will always be surprises but so far so good.