rebuilding injectors and pump to assess an old engine

[kwd509]

A mechanic is helping me do an initial assessment of a 1963 diesel 2a. Plan is to pass it off to me and my son as soon as reasonably possible. So far frame and bulkhead look good. But in assessing the engine it looks like mechanic is to suggest injector and injector pump work. This engine sat for 25 years and it's condition when it was parked is unknown, it may have been in bad shape then. Is it necessary to do this to determine the shape of the engine, and is this the appropriate way to proceed.

Or are there less expensive diagnostic steps that can be taken?

[SafeAirOne]

...mechanic is to suggest injector and injector pump work. This engine sat for 25 years and it's condition when it was parked is unknown, it may have been in bad shape then. Is it necessary to do this to determine the shape of the engine, and is this the appropriate way to proceed?

Well...it helps to have the engine running to determine its condition. If it were me, I wouldn't assume that the injectors and injector pump need rebuilding. The injectors cost roughtly $60 each to rebuild and the injector pump can run from $500-$750 to rebuild. That's just for the pump shop's work, not your mechanic's removal and installation and re-timing of the pump.

If it were me, I'd make sure everything upstream of the injector pump was flushed and clean to include the fuel tank itself. I'd replace the fuel filter and all the rubber fuel hoses including the fuel return line from the injector spill rail all the way back to the fuel tank, then mix a small percentage of biodiesel with the normal diesel to clean and lubricate everything. Prime fuel filter assembly then prime the injector pump IAW the book, then see if it'll start.

The worst thing that can happen is that your injectors and pump need to be rebuilt. You're not going to make them any broker by trying them first.

NOTE: if the injector pump on the 2.25 is anything like the one on the 2.5, it could be a bit of a b1tch to prime. Sometimes it can take an eternity to get the air out sufficiently for the thing to start. Other times, it happens pretty quickly.

[NRutterbush]

You should be able to test the injectors yourself or at a shop:

1) remove the injectors and clamp them to something rigid (leave the lines attached)- you might need to monkey with the lines or use some old lines that you can bend to new locations. Crank the engine and hold white index cards under / in front of each injector. Adding a little ATF to the fuel will help lubricate the pump, and turn the fuel red so you can see the spray pattern a little better. You are looking for a uniform circular spray with a fine mist. Be sure to wear safety goggles and such, because this will be a very messy game. You also have to make sure to run every last drop of ATF out of your fuel, or some states will nail you for running "untaxed" fuel once you get on the road.

2) remove only the injectors, take them to a competent diesel shop, and ask to have them tested. They should have a fancy little rack that tests the pop pressure, flow rate, and spray pattern of each injector. They can probably test your injection pump too.

After rebuilding several diesel engines of various sizes and brands, I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND METHOD #2.

Don't forget that many things other than a pump or injector failure can cause an injector to misfire. Your lift pump could be trashed, your lines could be bleeding a tiny bit of air in, your return lines could be blocked, to name a few.

I think that the chances are... after 25 years... just have them all rebuilt and walk away with piece of mind.

-Nate

[LaneRover]

Now, I don't know diesels tremendously well but I would go with SafeAirOne's recommendation and get all the free to cheap stuff done first. Then if need be get the injectors and pump re-built.

[ignotus]

First does the engine turn over? Try it with the hand crank. Make sure the glowplugs work. It won't start with out them. Likely they are wired in series which means if one fails they all won't work, you just need to find the bad one and replace.
You should be able to get fuel to the injectors by using the fuel lift pump. If you don't know the condition of the tank run a hose from the intake of the fuel filter(put on a new one) to fuel in a can. Then open the top bolt on the fuel filter and pump the lift pump and bleed the air out of the filter. When you get nothing but fuel close it.
There is a small filter located on the top of the injector pump in the fuel inlet. Pull off the inlet hose and check it out. Be careful there are small springs and pistons behind the filter screen.
Next the injector pump has 2 bleed screws on the (front of motor) side one is on the body and the other on the accelerator control box. Open these one at a time and bleed them also, using the lift pump. This will insure you have fuel going thru the system.
Be careful of testing the injectors in the open. They take 1984psi to open (135 atmospheres). Like NRutterbush says take em to a shop, a good shop will test yours for free. Safer and not so messy!
On the bottom of the injector pump there is a lever for a stop switch. Usually this is connected to a cable and runs thru the bulkhead and into the cab. It could be stuck in the stop position(this could be internal). It should have a spring on it to allow it to return to the run position
I would see if it runs first before I went into all the injector stuff. Since you don't know why it was not running. Heck maybe the clutch just needs fluid......

Get a repair manual if you don't have one.
hope this helps!
gene

[kwd509]

Thanks for all the input.
Mechanic was involved initially to assess and I find myself on slippery slope. Expense thus far seems manageable- a few hundred $, and he has indicated rig is in better shape than he would have expected for nearly 30 years sitting. He has indicated the wiring harness is shot and he is by passing it to get power to the starting system. Am anxious to move to the stage of having it home for extended tinkering.

Engine cranks by hand and mechanic says it is producing good oil pressure-30 psi....hmmmm.

Mystery oil seems to have helped address stuck rings.....

Fuel system has been cleaned and primed up to the injector pump. Clean fuel getting to injector pump but nothing coming out ( injectors were cleaned/rebuilt at a shop). Only thing left is aged fuel tank- which is being bypassed at present ...... the injector pump which is not producing anything. (Fuel tank to be dealt with later).

Starter has been rebuilt and is ready to go, as is fuel shut-off (to stop the beast once it fires up). Glo-plugs have gotten minimal attention, but seem ok. ......(show continuity- is that the appropriate test?).

Comments and suggestions much appreciated.

[SafeAirOne]

The glow plugs on the 2.25D are wired in series (unfortunately) and use a ballast resistor, so a continuity test from the input wire (white/brown) to the ground (black) should indicate that there are no breaks in any of the glow plugs.



Fuel system has been cleaned and primed up to the injector pump.


Does this mean that the pump itself was adequately primed IAW/the bible (the factory workshop manual or "WSM")? They can be really difficult to prime sometimes. Often I have to bleed the living heck out of it and then break the fuel return line (from the pump to the filter assembly) free and crank it for a while to get all the air COMPLETELY out before it'll think about starting. I don't know if the 2.25 Diesel is set up this way with the return line--My experience is with the 2.5D.

A diesel pump repair shop gave me that tip about cracking the return line when I couldn't get the thing primed after I ran it out of fuel once. I was at my wits end and this resolved my issue.


Below is the full fuel system priming procedure from the 90/110 WSM (NOTE: You have the 2.25 D.P.A. pump. Consider your fuel system to be fully drianed and follow the full procedure. The numbers referenced in the drawings correspond to the steps of the procedure):
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5003534912_53442c298c_b.jpg

[superstator]

FWIW, you can start it without glowplugs, but it'll be a battle. If it has the original series wired plugs, it's worth it to just assume they're bad and install the 2.5 plugs. Even if the original plugs work like new, the newer style are so much better and more reliable you'll want to make that upgrade anyway.

[SafeAirOne]

FWIW, you can start it without glowplugs, but it'll be a battle. If it has the original series wired plugs, it's worth it to just assume they're bad and install the 2.5 plugs. Even if the original plugs work like new, the newer style are so much better and more reliable you'll want to make that upgrade anyway.


Lower priority than the fuel system functionality, but there's some interesting reading on converting the 2-wire (series-wired) glow plug-with-ballast resistor system to a 1-wire (parallel-wired) glow plug-without-ballast resistor system found here (http://www.lro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43167&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=09a457e7e50972941594ef38d2c854b6).

[superstator]

Funny how the resistor thing causes so much confusion. I only mentioned the plugs since a hard start (and the accompanying clouds of white smoke) from bad plugs can fool you into thinking something more serious is wrong. Just another easy step before having a pump rebuilt.

[kwd509]

With benefit of the rebuilt injector pump and a bit more fiddling the diesel is now running. The mechanic, who was originally charged with assessing the engine went much further than I originally anticipated and while this has some financial implications, the mechanical result seems quite good. Engine is said to be in fine shape all around....... it runs unevenly and smokes like crazy.....

this leads me to a couple of questions
1-mechanic seems to think that tinkering with timing of injection pump and engine might help it run more smoothly ..... that in years of running the wear on parts may result in the need to tinker with timing to get it right........(I'm hoping the smoke can be improved too).

2-He also says that 'restoration' is for a vehicle that requires it and that my series is mostly original and that I should therefore be very careful not to mess with it too much.......that despite an initial urge to remove bumps, bruises and 'patina'. While I assume this is a question of taste....... I'd appreciate comments.

3- Lastly, in the interest of finances and learning I'd originally anticipated taking on the many remaining steps..... brakes, clutch, wiring harness, gauges, interior and exterior...... obviously this process would be time consuming for a newbie and fraught with trial and error. perhaps cheaper and perhaps a leaning experience..... But the mechanic, who is understandably interested in getting work but also interested in the vehicle ....he wants to do critical systems and encourages me to stick to other stuff........are there critical systems I should stay away from as a newbie?

[leafsprung]

1)timing has a big effect on how a diesel runs - getting it right will no doubt improve how it runs
2) lets see some pictures and I'll tell you whether your patina is worth keeping:D
3)Decide for yourself what you are capable of.

[kwd509]

1)timing has a big effect on how a diesel runs - getting it right will no doubt improve how it runs
2) lets see some pictures and I'll tell you whether your patina is worth keeping:D
3)Decide for yourself what you are capable of.


Relatively intact driver's side-
and damage to right wing, right sill and bumper.....

mechanic is not saying "no body work at all", but is saying that since engine is good, frame is solid, and bulkhead needs are modest, the vehicle is mainly original and therefore does not warrant intensive intervention on the body.

He seemed even to think that doing so would take something away from the vehicle. I'm inclined to fix the worst of it only (bulkhead & right wing). Focusing instead on mechanical aspects.

As for what I'm capable of....... a desire to do some of the work (and learn) and the potential financial benefits of doing so suggest that I bring the thing home and start tinkering- albeit tentatively.

[NRutterbush]

Even if the mechanic is your brother, remember this... NOBODY cares as much about your vehicle as you do. If you have a little patience, you can do anything on a rover yourself or with the help of one friend for lifting.

Personally, I started fixing my own old trucks when I was 15. I had nobody but the guy at the parts counter for advice. There were some bumps along the way, but the internet has made it much easier to seek advice.

My suggestion is do it all yourself. You might have a few problems, but someone will help you out of them. I would also do the bodywork myself. And yes... I would clean-up and repaint that rover. The cash "value" of the patina is only there if you find someone else willing to pay for something that looks like crap. What do you think the chances of that are?

The only other case in which I might leave it is for a sentimental story. I.E. when you can look wistfully into the distance and tell people how you smashed that wing by forgetting to push the clutch in before you started it to help your late father hook up his boat... or something like that. Otherwise... show the rover some respect, and make it pretty again.

When you get going, start by buying a good set of safety gear, glasses, mechanic's gloves, coveralls, heavy boots,etc, and you will be much happier in the long run.

I would also suggest that you buy good tools the first time, and take the time to buy the right tools, you can save a lot of ER money if you make sure you are not abusing the wrong tool.

As an example, I once had to have a broken screwdriver removed from my hand because I was too cheap to drive 25 miles to pep boys for a set of $12 retaining ring pliers. The ER was almost as far away, and that is not a fun drive with a screwdriver stuck through your palm.

Have fun, and remember, it doesn't cost anything to let it sit for a few weeks while you take a break from the aggravation of learning to fix things yourself.

Good Luck!

-Nate
Lifetime Cylinder Count: +/- 80

[superstator]

Good advice so far.

What kind of smoke are you getting? Keep in mind smoke from an old diesel like this doesn't always mean the sames things smoke from a gasonline engine does. Very generally, white smoke at startup that clears after warming up means bad plugs. Blue smoke, or lots of black sooty smoke means bad timing. No smoke means you probably ran out of fuel.

[LaneRover]

Patina is nice but I would definitely protect the bulkhead as that is steel.

Check the front breakfast (radiator support bulkhead) as that is steel too. Pay attention to the bottom edge.

Once you get it going drive, see what you do and don't like about the bumps, scrapes and patina.

I agree to start doing stuff yourself. Ask the mechanic if you can work alongside him. I knew a Rover guy in Maine who would sometimes work on the Rovers that he had sold people. He would usually have them watch a bit and usually they said, "Thats it? Thats how you do that!?!?" and soon they were doing their own work

Best of luck and have fun!

Brent

[SafeAirOne]

Generally, smokiness= pump timing is retarded; Excessive clacking when you give it some throttle= pump timing is overly-advanced. Somewhere in between= perfection.

[leafsprung]

The cash "value" of the patina is only there if you find someone else willing to pay for something that looks like crap. What do you think the chances of that are?

Chances are good, I get far more people asking for original paint trucks than repainted ones. Id take a care worn original over shiney paint any day. Paint has no purpose exept to keep rust at bay on things you cant galvanize. :D


show the rover some respect, and make it pretty again.

Best way to show respect is to maintain it and use it as intended. Making it pretty diminishes its utility tenfold.

This truck really does have nice patina from the doors back, the zinc chromate looks great. The front is pretty crusty though. Keep your eyes peeled for matching panels while you tackle the mechanical aspects. If you can make it presentable without having to spend the time and $$ on a full repaint do it.

[ignotus]

I started learning how to wrench on them in 1974 when I bought a new 73, 88. I drove it home the 30 miles from the dealer. When I got up in the morning there was a BIG puddle of oil under it. I called em up, they said drive it over we'll fix it. I knew enough not to do that. I looked underneath and found the oil filter cannister was loose. A quick bicycle ride to the local Grand Auto store and a new socket set later I tightened it up. Next I bought the shop manual and never looked back. I knew nothing about cars before then. It was my first car.

gene

[kwd509]

The range of answers and opinions is really quite helpful. I began the 'trip' of reclaiming the rover with a very narrow perspective. I was securing a long abandoned family relic, & on the heels of my mother's passing. I was focused on just getting-to Tennessee, assessing the vehicle and getting it back to VT.

It needs a lot of work but has potential. I'm just dealing now with the reality that a project car is 'a project'. In the immediate future I need to find accommodations for the truck, near my home and develop a plan for addressing the multiple needs.


As folks have been so generous in advising, I'm going to pose a couple of questions:
I.-How does one establish a sequence? I need to move to address a couple small areas on the bulkhead and figure that thIS requires some dismantling and that in turn allows me to sequence the project in a couple of ways.

It has recently occurred to me that rather than going right after critical systems I could focus initially on some things that are easier, and allow me to gain some confidence and skills.

acouple of options:
1-the fuel system is pretty much restored, except for the fuel tank and associated local plumbing. maybe that's a logical place to start.
2- The exhaust seems intact about 2/3 through. The last section of the pipe and muffler are gone. is this good for a beginner?

I figure that even though brakes, clutch etc are critical, they can wait a bit.
Thoughts? Suggested alternatives for sequencing?

II. It has recently been suggested that more is less. That cosmetic work take a lower priority than mechanical and anticorrosion efforts. Makes sense. So my anti-corrosion question: if the limited rust on the bulkhead can be easily corrected and rust is mild elsewhere. To what extent do I want to address surface rust, such as on radiator support radiator bulkhead and the chassis? (by painting). if a mechanic feels a the car is 'original', does that mean I should approaching the intact frame and breakfast differently? - and consider not stripping and painting.


III.
The bulkhead needs two repairs, 1-A small hole in the floor below the accelerator (left hand drive); and, a broken weld on the driver side door post (as will be required for bulkhead/footwell repair). Can these both be done by a skilled welder who is a non-rover guy?
thoughts.
Thanks again.

[ignotus]

Jay,

Alot of how you schedule your work depends on your goals. Things such as I want to drive it NOW! means you go after critical systems, such as brakes, steering, motor.
I want to drive it in 2011 summer! means you can take the time and do things as your interest and skills come along.
Is money a factor? do you want to get into a repair only to have to wait a month or more to order parts?
Some folks go the restoration route by stripping it down to the frame and refurbushing everything.

As far as the patina question; I say make it look like what you want, If you like the patina keep it, if not change it.
Some things can be done at the same time, say you want to repair the bulkhead, fit new(or rebuild) the clutch n brake master cylinders. Then take off the front wings and the M/C's plus the heater system. Repair the bulkhead and insulate(dynamat?) reinstall the heater and M/C's. If you painted the bulkhead are you going to paint the wings at the same time? After all they are off and you might as well do the radiator support panel....
See what I mean, some planning and having materials onhand can make it an easier job. Instead of pulling the wings to repair the bulkhead then having to do it over again to remove the M/C's and heater. And a third time to paint(if you want).

gene

[kwd509]

between budgetary constraints and coming cold weather and road salt..... there is no rush to drive it now.... so I can afford to move slowly.

If I lean toward maintaining 'genuineness' but will need to do minor repair on bulkhead. Which raises the question of what, if anything to do to the chassis, while it is exposed (partially). Are there only two options (to paint or not to paint- that is the question)?