Clutch is Out - Help!

[amcordo]

So I was driving and halfway through my little drive my clutch was out! Yikes! And right during rush hour on busy streets. The only thing to do at stop lights was to turn the car off then turn it back on in gear. Poor starter motor is probably mad at me. Serves me right for using this old thing as a daily driver.

Symptoms:
No leaks. Reservoir full
No pressure - bled (bleeded?) the clutch in the middle of a theater parking lot. Couldn't restore pressure. More specifically, air bubbles kept coming from the slave cylinder bleed valve.
Murky black fluid (should've been the yellowish since it's castrol)

The MC is about a year old, the slave is rusty enough that it looks like it's original or darned near. The piping *looks* to be in good condition.

Help?

And if it's replacing the slave is it a nightmare or easy?

[LaneRover]

If it is murky black I would assume that your seals are gone in the slave.

I forget how bad it is. The time consuming part is probably taking off the body panels to get to it.

[amcordo]

If it is murky black I would assume that your seals are gone in the slave.

I forget how bad it is. The time consuming part is probably taking off the body panels to get to it.


Well I already removed the floor panels and all that jazz (imagine having to pull out all the panels and bleed the clutch in a suit in a parking lot). But if I have to remove the bulkhead I'm going postal on the thing.

Second question: The existing slave cylinder looks to be this one(this model: http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-2137-clutch-slave-cylinder.aspx). Any reason why I can't just use the cheaper one (http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-4762-clutch-slave-cylinder.aspx)?

[ducttape]

Wait, aren't we supposed to use these as a daily driver? MINI has been calling for 2 weeks now, saying my 15k mile service is done please get the car out of their lot. I've been dodging their calls, enjoying the Rover so much.

[KevinNY]

Slave cylinder on a series 3 is as easy as a cup of coffeee and a slice of pie. 15 minute job

Do your self a favor and order and replace the flex hose and lower pipe at the same time. The pipe will probably break when you try to remove the slave cylinder and the inside of your flex line is probably some of that black fluid too.

[Cutter]

should have put it in low gear and just crawled home in first waving your arms like a mad man. people love that. really that wouldn't help but sounds like fun hoping up and down off curbs killing time for the lights...

[amcordo]

Slave cylinder on a series 3 is as easy as a cup of coffeee and a slice of pie. 15 minute job

Do your self a favor and order and replace the flex hose and lower pipe at the same time. The pipe will probably break when you try to remove the slave cylinder and the inside of your flex line is probably some of that black fluid too.


Thanks for the heads-up. Will do. RN boys - get ready for a frantic one-day shipping call tomorrow; this weekend is the last warm weather that we're expecting.

[SafeAirOne]

There are only 3 components--The clutch master cylinder, which you were clever enough to replace previously, the line(s), and the slave cylinder.

The flex line is often the culprit. It deteriorates then lets air in and fluid out.

I'd just replace the rubber flex line and the slave cylinder and bleed. Access to the flex line might be the hardest part. On RHDs, you get to the lower flex line connection through the um...center bulkhead/transmission hump cover adapter...I can't remember the correct name for it...and the upper flex line from the top side.

All in all, it's a half hour job (not counting panel installation/removal) if all goes well.

BTW...I didn't take a look at the 2 slaves you linked to, but once, I bought a cheap off-brand clutch slave from a place I no longer do business with. One week after installation, the slave piston wore a huge groove in the cylinder wall, causing me to do the whole job twice.

These trucks are just fine as daily drivers. Mine's also a '73 109 and has been pulling daily-driver duty for...going on 7 years now.

[artpeck]

I just completed replacing both the master and slave on a 73 '88 that had sat for 16 years. Both are super easy following the green book. I had the same symptoms as you where I bleed the circuit and got greasy black fluid dripping from the master onto the pedal and through the bleed nipple.
Replacing the master does require removing the wing unless you are a magician or can defy laws of physics. Took my daughter and me about 3 hours from first bolt to fully back together. Easy to do, just a lot of overhead to actually do the repair. This is due to the location being dictated by LHD having been designed for RHD. The slave i did on Friday in 10 minutes. I then bleed it carefully following the instructions and it works perfectly.

[amcordo]

BTW...I didn't take a look at the 2 slaves you linked to, but once, I bought a cheap off-brand clutch slave from a place I no longer do business with. One week after installation, the slave piston wore a huge groove in the cylinder wall, causing me to do the whole job twice.



Thank EVERYONE for your feedback. Like always, when I get in an irritation over a problem you're all around to sooth the wound.

I'll try out the Proline. So far I've been very happy with Rover North's proline parts. In fact, in one instance it was better than the genuine in design (door tops). I'll post feedback here if there's an issue in an unreasonable amount of time. That being said, I understand your advice to go with the real deal. Nine times out of ten in real life you get what you pay for.

[ignotus]

Tony,

I haven't done this yet but I will when the opportunity arises. Think about replacing the hard line from the resevior to the master cyl with a hose. Then it would be possible to pinch off the hose and not lose all the fluid in the res when doing a repair. It would also make it easier to get at the fittings on the tops of the m/c's when doing repairs.
I am going to take mine to a local hose repair shop and have them make one up when I do it. May even see about a small inline valve...
There is no line pressure so it doesn't need pipe.

gene

[amcordo]

Tony,

I haven't done this yet but I will when the opportunity arises. Think about replacing the hard line from the resevior to the master cyl with a hose. Then it would be possible to pinch off the hose and not lose all the fluid in the res when doing a repair. It would also make it easier to get at the fittings on the tops of the m/c's when doing repairs.
I am going to take mine to a local hose repair shop and have them make one up when I do it. May even see about a small inline valve...
There is no line pressure so it doesn't need pipe.

gene


Hi Gene!

I know nothing about this, so just saying... but there must be pressure in the line since that's how the MC forces the SC to do its stuff. Would it be safe to go with a flexible line the whole way? I like the idea - when I replaced the MC I was afraid I was going to snap the hard line when I moved it out of the way and this would remove that threat.

[Tim Smith]

I think Gene and Tony are talking about two different series. A series II has a separate reservoir with a "low pressure" line connecting it to the master. A series III should only have the reservoir attached to the master with no lines to pinch.

Of course, I could be wrong here. Just thought this conversation could be getting confused if that bit weren't noted.

[SafeAirOne]

I think Gene and Tony are talking about two different series. A series II has a separate reservoir with a "low pressure" line connecting it to the master. A series III should only have the reservoir attached to the master with no lines to pinch.

Of course, I could be wrong here. Just thought this conversation could be getting confused if that bit weren't noted.


Exactly--The SIII clutch MC and reservior is one unit. Unless amcordo has "downgraded" to an early MC, that shouldn't apply to him. He should have a MC like #2 in the diagram below, not like #1:


http://www.roversnorth.com/store/images/category/medium/47-series-clutch-master.jpg

[amcordo]

Yeah - I have the all in one unit.

[robert wood]

Hold it right there! Anyone who takes a fender or sideskin off a LH drive Series or Defender to change a clutch master cylinder is a masochist. It is far far easier to remove the brake pedal and then the clutch pedal, clean everything up, repair and put back. Six 5/16 bolts each pedal and you can undo them with a i/2 socket. Room to camp in. Of course you have to disconnect the brake line but as you are doing this at the highest point it is nothing to re-bleed the brakes.
Ray in Vancouver

[amcordo]

Hold it right there! Anyone who takes a fender or sideskin off a LH drive Series or Defender to change a clutch master cylinder is a masochist. It is far far easier to remove the brake pedal and then the clutch pedal, clean everything up, repair and put back. Six 5/16 bolts each pedal and you can undo them with a i/2 socket. Room to camp in. Of course you have to disconnect the brake line but as you are doing this at the highest point it is nothing to re-bleed the brakes.
Ray in Vancouver


Hey Ray!

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there :p! I'd say anyone who does not remove the wing for a MC replacement/service is a masochist. I ended up spending a couple hours last year trying to replace my MC with the advice that you don't have to remove the wing. In reality, if I had just attacked the wing and taken it off (5-10 minutes) then I would have had no trouble getting my less-than-nimble fingers in to the small corner to get that MC out. This way you don't have to bench bleed the brake MC which (for me) always turns into a messy, castrol-wasting affair.

Plus, while you've got the wing off you can go ahead and inspect hoses, clean that side of the engine thoroughly, etc.

Just my $.02!

[KevinNY]

X2, the wing comes off so easily. Gives you a chanch to clean out any mud in the door posts and spray some waxoyl in there too. But everyone has their own way of doing things I guess.

[LaneRover]

Wait, we all own old Land Rovers . . . . . . aren't we talking about levels of masochismo and not whether you are being masochistic or not?

[amcordo]

Wait, we all own old Land Rovers . . . . . . aren't we talking about levels of masochismo and not whether you are being masochistic or not?


+1.

[Terrys]

I've done it both ways. It's a pain to pull the front wings on an NAS Defender because you have to dissassemble the front half of the roll cage, so did it by removing the pedal boxes. Next time I have to put a clutch mc in the 110, I'll take the roll cage and wing off.

[ignotus]

Tony,

Tim's right, I forgot the series 3 has the self contained unit. I think a flex hose all the way from the M/C to the S/C might have too much expansion and not function properly with the small amount of fluid being used.
I think that Ray is saying to take both the brake and the clutch pedal/towers out at the same time to work on the clutch m/c. Without pulling the fender.
Me,... I'm one of those guys who cuts a removable section out of the top of the fender so I don't have to take it off.

gene

[Terrys]

Me,... I'm one of those guys who cuts a removable section out of the top of the fender so I don't have to take it off.
I think I've owned three of your former trucks then. One guy was so lazy, he didn't even cut it, he bent the back 12" forward. Must have been Sweeney Todd's truck, or some other butcher.

[amcordo]

Tony,

Tim's right, I forgot the series 3 has the self contained unit. I think a flex hose all the way from the M/C to the S/C might have too much expansion and not function properly with the small amount of fluid being used.
I think that Ray is saying to take both the brake and the clutch pedal/towers out at the same time to work on the clutch m/c. Without pulling the fender.
Me,... I'm one of those guys who cuts a removable section out of the top of the fender so I don't have to take it off.

gene


Can you post a picture of what you've done to your truck? I'd like to add an access point to mine in a pretty way.

[bkreutz]

Tony,

Tim's right, I forgot the series 3 has the self contained unit. I think a flex hose all the way from the M/C to the S/C might have too much expansion and not function properly with the small amount of fluid being used.
I think that Ray is saying to take both the brake and the clutch pedal/towers out at the same time to work on the clutch m/c. Without pulling the fender.
Me,... I'm one of those guys who cuts a removable section out of the top of the fender so I don't have to take it off.

gene
Flex hose will work, just a matter of getting the properly rated hose to have it made up. (think of the pressure in hydraulic lines on heavy equipment or brake hoses)

[Tim Smith]

Can you post a picture of what you've done to your truck? I'd like to add an access point to mine in a pretty way.This probably deserves it's own thread but I've seen some people just cut a big section out and then attach it on one side with a piano hinge. When the hood is down, the new flappy bit will stay in place.

Not correct but like I said, I've seen it done.

[KevinNY]

Consider too that there is a reason why there is a long run of 1/4" pipe between the master and slave, there needs to be enough fluid between the two to fill the slave to make the whole system work.

[Terrys]

Does that really matter? The only amout that will go into the slave is the amount that the MC pushes. Whats in between doesn't change that.

[SafeAirOne]

Does that really matter? The only amount that will go into the slave is the amount that the MC pushes. Whats in between doesn't change that.

Not necessarily:

As the flexible rubber line ages, it will tend to expand when pressurized. Minimizing the length of line than is subject to this expansion is desirable in order to maximize the volume of pressurized fluid delivered to the slave cylinder. Not a problem on a backhoe, where the flex lines are much beefier
and the supply of pressurized fluid is infinite, but in a closed system with thin-wall flex lines and a measured amount of fluid being supplied, this is much more of a concern.

Compared to a nine-inch section, 3 feet of old flex line is much more apt to act as a long accumulator, storing the fluid pressure rather than passing it on to the slave cylinder.

Of course the flex line is just there to isolate the relatively stable master cylinder, mounted to the body, from the relatively shaky slave, mounted on the engine (essentially). A hard line between these 2 components would fatigue and crack eventually, hence a small section of flex line.

[Terrys]

No argument there Mark, but what I thought Kevin was refering to was the volume of the line, lets assume in a static condition, having some bearing on the amount of stroke the slave would have, i.e., longer line, more stroke. The point he was making was that the line was as long as it was for a reason, not short. I agree that the line volume would increase if there was flex-hose expansion, when under pressure, but I don't think that was the point.

As I remember back to my SCCA days, I had a line on both my Lotus 41C and my Super 7, called Hytron. It was a plastic material, quite flexible, and the whole of both car's brake and clutch system were plumbed with it, rather than steel (or phosphur bronze)

[I Leak Oil]

I think in the series hydraulic clutch system you're looking to move volume and quickly, which is why they use the larger pipe. The clutch throw is much longer than that of a brake system.

[Terrys]

I think in the series hydraulic clutch system you're looking to move volume and quickly, which is why they use the larger pipe. The clutch throw is much longer than that of a brake system. Right, but the throw of the clutch MC is about equal to the throw of the slave. The point I was making is that the length (not the diameter) of the tubing from the MC to the slave is irrelavant. If the MC forces .62 cubic inches of fluid into the tubing, then the same amount is going to come out the other end, into the slave. (Assuming the flex line is in good shape and not expanding.)

[ignotus]

Tony,

This is the way I've done it. I ahve seen the piano hinge method and while I will admit it looks cleaner the things I don't like are; You have to remove the bonnet to open----the hinge protrudes when closed and hurts my elbows when leaning on it----the flap is kinda in the way sitting on the wing.
With mine I can remove the flap with the bonnet open, adjust my elbow to miss the bolt head---put the removed flap out of the way and use it to hold parts.
The main thing I need for mine is thick aluminum to hold the treads for the bolt. I used C channel on this because that is what I had. It is easier to cut the panel when mounted on the body, and there will be a little edge under the fold where the 2 peices bolt together. Cut it as big as you can as that makes it easier to work on the pedal adjustment. Just remember the mud splash panel under the wing.

gene

[amcordo]

I replaced the SC and the lower hose. I still can't bleed out the bubbles. Guess all that's left is to replace the MC. Again, it's not leaking - has anyone else had an issue of air getting into the pipes from the MC without it leaking?

[artpeck]

Sounds like the MC. Just to make sure however (and sorry for stating what is obvious) you did make sure you kept the reservoir on the MC full while you were bleeding? On mine at least the fluid capacity is very small so easy to suck air in during bleeding unless you stay on it and keep refilling.

[albersj51]

On a non-rover i own, i found that when i kept the cutch pushed in id lose pressure, but no leaks. It was the MC letting a small amount of air in but no fluid out

[Terrys]

How are you bleeding the system? There's 3 ways;
1)Pump it up, hold the pedal, open and shut bleeder.
2) Vacuum bleed using HandiVac.
3) Gravity bleed. Fill reservoir, open bleed screw, let it drip till solid fluid, shut bleed screw.

For a clutch, 3 is the easiest, and best method.

[amcordo]

How are you bleeding the system? There's 3 ways;
1)Pump it up, hold the pedal, open and shut bleeder.
2) Vacuum bleed using HandiVac.
3) Gravity bleed. Fill reservoir, open bleed screw, let it drip till solid fluid, shut bleed screw.

For a clutch, 3 is the easiest, and best method.


Thanks all for the feedback!

I've always done the Open the screw, pump, close the screw bleed. It worked fine with the last SC. So my bleeding method shouldn't be the issue (thanks for asking though; it's the simplest things that usually get you). Oh well. Good time as any to replace all the pipes and cylinders.

[amcordo]

Sounds like the MC. Just to make sure however (and sorry for stating what is obvious) you did make sure you kept the reservoir on the MC full while you were bleeding? On mine at least the fluid capacity is very small so easy to suck air in during bleeding unless you stay on it and keep refilling.


Ha. Thanks for the obvious - it usually is the simplest things that get you. But not this time. I made sure to keep it full.

[artpeck]

I am wary of passing things like that along at the risk of offending but since we have learned the hard way I figured I would. Thanks for not taking offense.

[amcordo]

Gotta love my truck. Random parts. So I replace the SC with the same model SC that was in it. It's from a 2a. I also replaced the clutch MC - which is from an S3. Well I purchased two flexi-lines, both different sizes (one longer and one shorter) and it turns out both ALSO have different sized ends on them.

Well, here's the issue: The clutch SC has a smaller thread input from the flexline than the steel pipe coming from the MC. In short, I either need an adapter on one end, or a custom flexi-line with two different sized ends (smaller diameter on the SC side, larger on the MC pipe side).

First: anyone know of what the sizes of the ends might be? The smaller flexline says 1/8 on the hose, and the larger says 3/16 on the hose.
Second: where would I get either the adapter or a custom flexline?

The old flex line looks in bad shape, but it has the two different sizes. Is that in any way normal?


ANOTHER OPTION?
I also have an S3 SC laying around. Any reason that could not be used if my clutch is an S2/a model? That would make this an easier swap.

[KevinNY]

Do you have the adaptor that connects the MC to steel line.

[amcordo]

Do you have the adaptor that connects the MC to steel line.


Yes. It's currently doing a good job of adapting the MC to the steel line. I take it one of those would work?

[KevinNY]

IIRC there is no adaptor on the SC and no reason why a replacement should need one? Maybe some pictures would help to see what you are dealing with.

EDIT: It seems you have quite an assortment of parts on your truck which is making this more difficult than it should be. Maybe it's back in thread somewhere, but what master and slave cylinder do you in fact have on your series 3?

[artpeck]

When I replaced mine (73 S3 88) I had to remove the reducer from the old master cylinder to connect the steel pipe to the new. On the slave which was sourced from hosts it was a direct replacement and exactly fit. Not sure why you ended up with this disconnect although maybe it is using a s2 replacement part.

[amcordo]

MC: SIII
SC: SIIA

The SC and MC share the same (smaller) sized connection. But the existing pipe is larger. Hence the step-up adapter at the MC->stepup->PIPE Point. Anyway, I just bought another of those adapters to attach on the SC side and that will be that. Much better than trying to find or have made this goofy hose the PO put on. So shortly the run will be:

MC>step up adapter>pipe>hose>step down adapter>SC

And yes if you've been following my zany antics over the past year I've shown that my truck is an 'ugly' filled with parts from every model. Finally figured out that the bulkhead is from a SIIA, with the dash cut off and replaced with an SIII dash. Now why in the world did someone think that was a good idea? But it's all good. I am much happier with a truck like this than I ever would be with a show-quality rebuild.

And FYI: the reason I have to use the SII/A SC is because the SIII SC is an INCREDIBLY tight fit with the SIIA bulkhead that's been modified to fit the big engine.

Still leanin' right

[artpeck]

I had no idea as I am relatively new to the forum so good to know. Mine is as stock as stock could be so so far no nasty surprises. One owner since new until me and he changed nothing on the truck