Series 109

[Tbedman]

Hi, Looking at a 109 with brake problems. You need to pump the brakes to stop. What else should I look at on the vehicle before I buy it? I know the frame. thanks timco3

[graniterover]

You've just described every used 109.
Frame rust under bump stops.
Brake line rust.
Bulkhead rust.
Outrigger rust.
Exhaust leaks.
Rusted axles.
Compression.
Wiring.
Window Tracks.
Rust on breakfast.
Steering (tre's, relay, steering box, swivel balls)
Hi/low on xfer.
Wheel bearings.
Fuel filter (for rust in tank).
Wiper motors - do they work?
Brake master.
Clutch master.
Clutch slave.
I'm sure there is more, but that is a small start.

[SafeAirOne]

Didn't all 109s come from the factory requiring 2 pumps for a solid, high pedal?

Pre-purchase inspection items:

http://www.lrfaq.org/Series/FAQ.S.look_for.html

[TeriAnn]

Didn't all 109s come from the factory requiring 2 pumps for a solid, high pedal?

Not hardly. 109 brakes should give a good hard pedel on the first try.

Assuming that the master cylinder is good, the rubber brake hoses are good and are not blowing up like a balloon under pressure, and the shoes are adjusted it is a sure sign that the last person who did the rear brakes on the 109 put the shoes on in the wrong location. It could be just a matter of rearranging the rear brake shoes to different locations. Or it could be a bad master cylinder.

My 109 rear brake web page

[Mercedesrover]

Not hardly. 109 brakes should give a good hard pedel on the first try.

All Land Rover brakes suck. You must upgrade to disk brakes all the way around. Only losers keep the original Land Rover brakes.

[I Leak Oil]

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm there Jim?????
Did someone pee in your coffee this morning?

[Mercedesrover]

Eh, I'm just poking some fun at TeriAnn. She though I was crazy to keep the original brakes on my 109.

I actually like 109 brakes and properly adjusted the work great. Keep in mind that the system has 6 slave cylinders and 6 leading shoes so they don't stop quite as well in reverse. Not a big deal.

As far as a pedal goes, in reality you'll probably have a double-pump brake unless you adjust your brakes every other week. There are 6 slave cylinders to fill up and unless your shoes are dragging on the drums and perfectly shaped it's going to take a second jump to bring the pedal to the very top. Not to say you need to as there is enough pedal travel to fill everything up on the first pump, but feeling the brake pedal up at the top gives you a better feeling of confidence.

[adkrover]

My original 109 breaks are fine but they are completely new also. In general, if this is your first Series, you need to be prepared to replace EVERYTHING eventually if you expect to drive it on a regular basis. If it's just a toy then be prepared to replace everything.... but not as quickly.

[TeriAnn]

Eh, I'm just poking some fun at TeriAnn. She though I was crazy to keep the original brakes on my 109.

Sorry, I didn't get your attempt at humor either. I didn't see the smiley.

I never thought you were crazy for keeping your front drum brakes.

Though I did strongly suggest that it would be a good idea for you to convert your front brakes to discs because by all indications you frequently drive your 109 in steep mountainous areas.

The front brakes on 109s have two leading brake shoes and no trailing brake shoes. The common drum brake arrangement is one leading and one trailing shoe. What having two leading shoes does is give you braking in the forward direction that is superior to the common one forward, one trailing configuration. But it means that your front brakes are not very useful when braking in the rearwards direction. This means that if you are on a hill in a steep nose up attitude and you need to come to a stop, you have only those two trailing shoes on the back brake to try & hold your truck in place. Under such situations I tended to find myself with both feet on the brake pedal, pushing as hard as I can with my back braced against the back to the seat. And even then I might not be able to completely hold it.

If you have a failed assent you really don't want to roll back without having the time to get into reverse. Especially if some idiot behind you failed to wait until you cleared the assent before following.

Unlike 109 front drum brakes, disc brakes work equally well in both directions and have the added advantage of working well immediately after a water crossing.

I consider front discs to be a safety upgrade for 109s that see hard use in the mountains, of for that matter drive the streets of San Francisco. Mine gets used in the mountains so about 5 years ago I upgraded to front disc brakes. If I wasn't trail driving in the mountains fairly frequently I would not have bothered to switch to front discs and I would not have recommended them to Jim had I not thought he spent time on steep trails.

Rear drum brakes seem to work fine under all conditions. I don't recall ever recommending a switch to rear discs to anyone.

I actually like 109 brakes and properly adjusted the work great. Keep in mind that the system has 6 slave cylinders and 6 leading shoes so they don't stop quite as well in reverse. Not a big deal.

Not if you can exert a lot more pedal pressure than I can or if you don't find yourself having to stop and hold position in a steep nose up attitude.

As far as a pedal goes, in reality you'll probably have a double-pump brake unless you adjust your brakes every other week. There are 6 slave cylinders to fill up and unless your shoes are dragging on the drums and perfectly shaped it's going to take a second jump to bring the pedal to the very top. Not to say you need to as there is enough pedal travel to fill everything up on the first pump, but feeling the brake pedal up at the top gives you a better feeling of confidence.

I've always tended to adjust mine at the eight thousand mile service interval and never had to double pump (For both 88s & 109s the factory recommends checking brake adjustment every four thousand miles when you change your engine oil, and go down their check list).

[Monkeyboy]

Didn't all 109s come from the factory requiring 2 pumps for a solid, high pedal?

Dang, and here I thought that was the ABS working <WINK>

[lrdukdog]

monkeyboy

Hey monkeyboy are you a fan of the "Buckaroo Banzi" movie? I have one if my Toller boys named Buckaroo Banzi but SWMBO makes me call him Basil. I do call him Mr. B most of the time.
Jim Wolf

[amcordo]

I'm just going to drop in and say that the brakes are the one thing that works fantastic on my rover. NEVER had to bleed the slaves yet, and it's always a hard pedal on the first pump. I've had it for over a year now. So that should give you some hope that it is possible to get great brakes on these things.

[lrdukdog]

brakes

I have Stage-1, 6 cylinder front brakes on my 1966 109 4 banger and w/o power anything they stop very well.
Jim Wolf

[Terrys]

I have Stage-1, 6 cylinder front brakes on my 1966 109 4 banger and w/o power anything they stop very well.
Jim Wolf

What is a Stage 1, 6 cylinder ?

[LaneRover]

Both my 109's have always had good brakes without constant need of adjustment.

Of course I'd probably wait a bit too long but they were always there.