2.25 petrol problem....

[fred98050]

109 s2 with 2.25 petrol:

Tonight I started to experience some engine trouble. It idles great, while driving it gets normal acceleration as long as I don't exceed a certain pressure on the accelerator pedal. If I push the accelerator pass that point the engine start to sputter and as soon as I release the pressure it returns to normal.

It's dark and really cold right now so I just looked at the clear fuel filter and sediment bowl. The filter is clear and there is a little bit of deposit in the sediment bowl.

The truck has an electronic ignition, new plugs, new coil and new wires. It seems to me that it is most likely a fuel delivery problem. The car is a weber single barrel.

Any recommendation as to where I should look first?

Thanks

[dunerunner]

Had the same problem with my Series II 109. The fuel line between the fuel pump and the carb was colgged up with gunk and the float bowl wouldn't fill properly causing fuel starvation beyond a specific RPM.

Good Luck!!

[fred98050]

Had the same problem with my Series II 109. The fuel line between the fuel pump and the carb was colgged up with gunk and the float bowl wouldn't fill properly causing fuel starvation beyond a specific RPM.

Good Luck!!

I'll start by looking at the fuel line and fuel filter in the carb as well.

Thanks

[fred98050]

After cleaning up the fuel line I am still experiencing the same problem.:(
Had a little bit of deposit in the lines from tank to pump but nothing from the pump to the carb.

What would be the symptoms on a failing fuel pump?

What would be the symptoms of a failing coil?

When the engine is cold it works just fine, the problem occurs after 5 to 6 miles down the road...

Frederic

[dunerunner]

Could be the fuel pump, if it is engine RPM related, check the points, if not I would still go back to fuel.

Again, if you can run at 3K in 2nd and not in 4th, then it is most likely fuel.

Good Luck!

[fred98050]

Could be the fuel pump, if it is engine RPM related, check the points, if not I would still go back to fuel.

Again, if you can run at 3K in 2nd and not in 4th, then it is most likely fuel.

Good Luck!

The truck has electronic ignition. My understanding is that it either works or not at all. Correct?

It is pretty much as you describe it, 3000 RPM in 2nd , no problem and 3000 RPM in 4th or 3rd and it sputters....

Do you see any explanation as to why it would take a few miles to sputter if it is the pump? I can't see why it would be different with a cold or warm engine.
Fuel pump is entirely mechanical, right?

I will check the lines again tomorrow and clean the jets in the carb.

Thanks

[NickDawson]

Do you have a set of points you can put back in for testing?

Also, does your dizzy have a vacuum advance? If so, can you test it? Maybe put a short section of hose on it and apply some manual suction, see if the RPMs go up.

Think you're getting some good advice here - check the pump too. I understand its pretty simple to swap in a cheapo napa or advanced electronic pump, might be worth the troubleshooting.

In my limited understanding of ignitions (and all things mechanical), I think if the coil were failing it would not run well at all. At least that was the case with my bad coil - I was able to confirm by checking the voltage on the low tension lead - should be 12v.

[fred98050]

Do you have a set of points you can put back in for testing?

Also, does your dizzy have a vacuum advance? If so, can you test it? Maybe put a short section of hose on it and apply some manual suction, see if the RPMs go up.

I have a set of points I can use.

Good point. I'll try that the vacuum.




Think you're getting some good advice here - check the pump too. I understand its pretty simple to swap in a cheapo napa or advanced electronic pump, might be worth the troubleshooting.

Do you mean that I should add an electrical fuel pump? Should I wire the pump to run when ignition "ON" or switch activated?



In my limited understanding of ignitions (and all things mechanical), I think if the coil were failing it would not run well at all. At least that was the case with my bad coil - I was able to confirm by checking the voltage on the low tension lead - should be 12v.

The idle is near perfect but I'll check the voltage anyway.

That's what I love about my Rovers, they have more problems than I have....:D

Thanks

[SafeAirOne]

Interesting that it only happens when the engine is warmed up...

If you've thoroughly checked all the ignition system components, then I might check to see that the choke is functioning correctly, including fully disengaging when the choke lever is almost all the way in (you want to run out of travel on the carb slightly before you run out of travel on the knob).

Choking a warm engine will have a similar effect as you describe--I know this because I was almost run over by a fast-moving garbage truck while trying to zip across a major road with my choke out a long time ago...:(


If not for the issue being intermittent and related to engine temp, my second guess would have been to check for a bad accelerator pump in the carb--It squirts gas into the carb when the gas pedal is depressed, allowing the engine to rev up until the vacuum in the venturi is strong enough to draw enough fuel out though the normal method.

[s3landy]

With the engine off, pump the throttle linkage and look for a shot of fuel from the carb. When cold, the choke will give extra fuel but when warm, the accelerator pump should do the job unless only moving the linkage slowly. Worth a shot.

Mike

[Terrys]

The accelerator jet is very small, but if it's plugged, you'd experience a strong hesitation when you step on the gas, but not 'sputtering' Easy enough to check; take the air cleaner horn off the top of the carb and see if you get a little shot of gas from the accelerator jet (small arm that sticks out from the side of the body.) If not, remove the screws, lift the top of the carb up and lay to the side, pull the jet straight up with needle nosed pliers. It's held in place by a small 'O' ring. Use a tiny wire, such as gas torch cleaning tip.
Don't rule out a faulty condensor. Also, check that your points are gapped correctly, and that the spring arm has sufficient tension, to prevent them from 'floating' at higher RPMs. Is there any play in the distributor shaft? This can yield all sorts of running issues.

[LaneRover]

Interesting that it only happens when the engine is warmed up...

If you've thoroughly checked all the ignition system components, then I might check to see that the choke is functioning correctly, including fully disengaging when the choke lever is almost all the way in (you want to run out of travel on the carb slightly before you run out of travel on the knob).

Choking a warm engine will have a similar effect as you describe--I know this because I was almost run over by a fast-moving garbage truck while trying to zip across a major road with my choke out a long time ago...:(



I agree on checking to make sure the choke is turning 'off' all the way too.

[NickDawson]

Nothing new to add, just noting the ah-ha moment I had when reading the suggestions of others regarding the choke and jets.
I'm so conditioned that "its never the carb" but what is being posited makes good sense. Could easily be a jet and/or stuck choke. Clipped this thread for my file of Rover troubleshooting tips

[fred98050]

So, Today:

- Cleaned all the fuel lines (again) > No surprises
- Cleaned the carb fuel filter. > No surprises
- Cleaned the carb jets. > did not see anything obvious
- Sediment bowl inspected > All clean
- replaced secondary fuel filter for good measure.
- Inspected and adjusted the choke cable a bit.
- Adjusted the mixture and Idle speed.


Started the truck, choke on, warmed up a bit then Choke off, Idle very well +/- 700 RPM.

Took the truck for a ride, worked great for 10 minutes then the dreaded "sputter" came back...

I took a video of the sputter and also checked the fuel flow of my 88 2.25 petrol compare to the 109 2.25 petrol. It's day and night, the fuel trickles, at best in the 109. (See videos.)

Looks like fuel pump might be on its way out. What do you think?

Thanks

Sputter
lHXQN5hBGPY


Fuel flow 109:

MTOY_9jj4Wg


Fuel flow 88:

Vy_RZ71NEfU

[NickDawson]

Mobile phones with cameras and the web may be the new best tool in Land Rover repair!
I have not done it, but understand the electric pump replacement is fairly easy. Bmohan55 has a thread on it somewhere... my forum search skills are weak tonight.

[SafeAirOne]

On my 109, there's a very fine mesh strainer on the bottom of the fuel pickup tube in the fuel tank. On 2 occasions, the strainer was sufficiently clogged with fine sediment so as to allow fuel supply at all RPMs initially, but after 10 minutes of driving would develop a suction because the engine required more fuel than would fit through the clogged strainer.

Eventually, I'd loose the high RPM range and shortly later, as the fuel defecit grew, I wouldn't even be able to keep the engine running at any RPM.

After letting it sit for a few hours the suction that developed in the fuel lines would eventually suck enough fuel in from the tank that the pressure in the lines would equalize.

Starting it up and running it was normal again for 10 minutes, then it would start all over again.

The "ah haa!" moment came when it died and I removed a fuel line in the engine bay and got a "sucking in air" sound. Pulled the fuel pickup tube and cleaned the strainer with a toothbrush and some diesel and fixed the problem.

EDIT: I would have posted this earlier, but I thought you already checked this. Re-reading the original posts, it looks like you went UP TO the tank but not inside it.

[albersj51]

I took Gudjeons advice and installed an electric fuel pump. I used this in conjunction with a bypass fuel filter and a return hose; no problems with it that I can tell. Terry Anne has some info about e-pumps as well. Here is what I used:

Filter: Napa Gold # 3054 Bypass fuel filter (purolator sells the same thing, give them the Napa number and they'll find it).

Pump: Napa # E8012S Electric fuel pump

I'll take some pics of the set up and post them up. It was a straight forward install. My tank already has a blank plate over an access hole. I drilled a hole in the blanking plate, tapped it, and installed a "nipple" to attach the return line to.

The e-pump is installed under the passenger seat (loud), at the same level as the tank (these pumps are good for pushing, not for pulling so keep it at or below tank level to allow gravity to help). I tied the power wire into the ignition switch so that it shuts off when I turn the key, and I grounded it to the chassis.

I hope this helps!

[fred98050]

EDIT: I would have posted this earlier, but I thought you already checked this. Re-reading the original posts, it looks like you went UP TO the tank but not inside it.

I even did not think about it:o

I'll check tonight.

Thanks

[fred98050]

I took Gudjeons advice and installed an electric fuel pump. I used this in conjunction with a bypass fuel filter and a return hose; no problems with it that I can tell. Terry Anne has some info about e-pumps as well. Here is what I used:

Filter: Napa Gold # 3054 Bypass fuel filter (purolator sells the same thing, give them the Napa number and they'll find it).

Pump: Napa # E8012S Electric fuel pump

I'll take some pics of the set up and post them up. It was a straight forward install. My tank already has a blank plate over an access hole. I drilled a hole in the blanking plate, tapped it, and installed a "nipple" to attach the return line to.

The e-pump is installed under the passenger seat (loud), at the same level as the tank (these pumps are good for pushing, not for pulling so keep it at or below tank level to allow gravity to help). I tied the power wire into the ignition switch so that it shuts off when I turn the key, and I grounded it to the chassis.

I hope this helps!

Great info. I'll check TerryAnne as well.

Thank you

[fred98050]

Just checked draw tube and it is all clear...

[SafeAirOne]

Just checked draw tube and it is all clear...


OK. If fuel supply is your problem and everything is clear of obstructions then I guess there's only one thing left.


I'm still trying to put together a plausible way that a bad mechanical fuel pump/diaphragm could present these symptoms...

I suppose that if it pumped at a reduced volume...say, just enough to keep the bowl filled at through 1500 RPM...it would do just fine for a while, but when the RPMs increase beyond 1500, the bowl would slowly empty till the sputtering would start. It makes sense that further pressing on the accelerator would exacerbate the stumbling because there's not enough fuel available in the bowl to be squirted into the carb by the accelerator pump.

Hmm...That sounds reasonable, doesn't it? Anyone ever have that happen to them?

I wonder if the symptoms would disappear again for another 5 minutes if you let the rover idle for 10 minutes after it stumbles (so that the bowl has a chance to refill at idle before being depleted by driving).


EDIT: Oops...I see that dunerunner explained this earlier (and in a much simpler way) when he referenced a clogged fuel line.

[fred98050]

OK. If fuel supply is your problem and everything is clear of obstructions then I guess there's only one thing left.


I'm still trying to put together a plausible way that a bad mechanical fuel pump/diaphragm could present these symptoms...

I suppose that if it pumped at a reduced volume...say, just enough to keep the bowl filled at through 1500 RPM...it would do just fine for a while, but when the RPMs increase beyond 1500, the bowl would slowly empty till the sputtering would start. It makes sense that further pressing on the accelerator would exacerbate the stumbling because there's not enough fuel available in the bowl to be squirted into the carb by the accelerator pump.

Hmm...That sounds reasonable, doesn't it? Anyone ever have that happen to them?

I wonder if the symptoms would disappear again for another 5 minutes if you let the rover idle for 10 minutes after it stumbles (so that the bowl has a chance to refill at idle before being depleted by driving).


EDIT: Oops...I see that dunerunner explained this earlier (and in a much simpler way) when he referenced a clogged fuel line.

Just took the truck for another test drive (for the last time today) and sure enough after experiencing the sputter I stopped, waited for about 4 to 5 minutes at idle. Back on the road, engine ran great for 5 minutes or so then it started again...

So I guess your explanation is more than reasonable. I also discovered the hand primer on the pump (:o). Played with it for 2 minutes and, absolutely nothing... No fuel going downstream, no noise, nothing...


I have a replacement pump that I'll install tomorrow and go from there... If this fixes the problem, I'll open the old pump and see what was going on.

Learned a lot but I am done for today.:gulp:

Tired, smelling of gasoline and cold.




-Frederic

[SafeAirOne]

...after experiencing the sputter I stopped, waited for about 4 to 5 minutes at idle. Back on the road, engine ran great for 5 minutes or so then it started again...


So you can use the 109 for trips of 5 minutes or less and the 88 for trips longer than 5 minutes. Perfect! :D

BTW: A tidbit of additional info...a perfectly good fuel pump might not pump with the hand priming lever if the camshaft just happened to come to rest with the fuel pump arm on top of the fuel pump cam lobe when you shut it down, because the diaphragm is in the ...um...fully pumped...position already.

[fred98050]

That's the kind of fuel flow I had before replacing fuel pump:

MTOY_9jj4Wg


************************************************** *************
Today:

Replaced fuel pump:


Checked for leaks from tank to fuel pump line. I did not have any reason to believe that there was a leak but just in case....:

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Here is fuel flow with new pump::)

DEzIhx4aNWI

Took the truck for a test drive and all is fine now.....

I would like to thank everybody for all their help and suggestions in the past few days.

Cheers:cheers:



Frederic