Buying Rebuilt Engine Sources

[SGS714]

My #2 cylinder has 20lbs of pressure...Everything looks good under the valve cover and assume it is either a valve or piston issue and have decided to replace the entire engine and not second guess myself. Engine has not ran real smooth since I bought the truck and was planning on putting a fresh engine in once this one gave me a sign. I do not turn my own wrenches when it comes to inside the engine and have talked with my very capable mechanic and would like to purchase a complete engine to drop in. My preference is more power and am not scared of approaching the $5k mark. Want to stay with gas. I hope you folks could recommend a good reliable source.

Your thoughts are appreciated...

[SafeAirOne]

Our hosts sell them, though I'll be darned if I can find them listed anywhere on their site...

[Terrys]

Unless your "mechanic" is just a 'remove & replace" kinda guy, why don't you have him rebuild your engine? The 'rebuilt' engines that RN used to sell came from the Ministry Of Defense, and the rebuilder could have been very very good, or very very horrid.

[Eric W S]

5k? You could get a complete turner enginer for that. Course you'd be wasting money. For less than half that you can have it rebuilt locally to the same effect...

[mongoswede]

Why not just rebuild it yourself? Instead of shelling out thousands for someone else to do it...spend the money on an engine stand, some tools, and the parts. Find a good race/machine shop in your area that will be willing to give you advice and help with analysis on what needs to be done. a basic rebuild might just involve replacing the journal bearings, honing the cylinders, and replacing the rings. If the block needs more attention you might need to bore the cylinders and adjust the rings accordingly (machine shop work).

If you have no time, space, or interest then just pay someone else to do it. :thumb-up:

[SGS714]

Unless your "mechanic" is just a 'remove & replace" kinda guy, why don't you have him rebuild your engine? The 'rebuilt' engines that RN used to sell came from the Ministry Of Defense, and the rebuilder could have been very very good, or very very horrid.

Terry, I was hoping you would chime in...I appreciate your very to the point and in my opinion accurate thoughts. My mechanic can do anything but doesn't have any 1st hand knowledge rebuilding these engines....and we decided for an extra $1500ish why not just save us all the work of sorting out all the nuances that it takes to make this a pleasure to drive.

I am currently in discussion with ACR (Automotive Component Remanufacturing Ltd) in the UK and about ready to pull the trigger on their complete 2.8L solution with complete intake including carb and header.

[KevinNY]

I had an ACR Power Plus motor in my truck originally with the SU carb and intake. Honestly it was a sweet running engine and that carb setup was consistently trouble free and worked at any angle. Don't believe the hype that it is a huge upgrade in power though. Versus a tired 2.25 yes it will be a huge improvement, but it is still polishing a turd compared to a modern transplant. You will certainly be able to hold highway speed with one though.

[Mountain132]

I am currently in discussion with ACR (Automotive Component Remanufacturing Ltd) in the UK and about ready to pull the trigger on their complete 2.8L solution with complete intake including carb and header.

If you go with that option can you keep us in the loop on some of the logistical details if not too personal

Shipping time/price/hassle/company professionalism

[rejeep]

If you go with that option can you keep us in the loop on some of the logistical details if not too personal

Shipping time/price/hassle/company professionalism

agreed

[jac04]

You can purchase a long block Turner "High Performance" 2.25 engine through Atlantic British in New York. You swap over your manifolds, carb, water pump, alternator, distributor, fuel pump, etc. That's what I did since I was looking for a drop-in replacement. It wasn't cheap, but it wasn't much more than the RN engine and it was worth the extra $ IMO.

Here is how you pick it up:
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/000_1520.jpg

...and here is what's inside:
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/000_1566.jpg

[JackIIA]

What are you getting for the extra $576 through AB? The RN site lists their engine as "new" rather than a rebuild.

I'm assuming the AB is a rebuilt, and realistically, I'd expect the RN one must be too despite the "new" label.

I agree that Turner is the leader in LR rebuilds, but last I knew RN's engines were Turner rebuilds too. That was awhile ago though.

??

[jac04]

The complete engines listed on the RN site are rebuilds of already-rebuilt military engines that they have done by a local shop. I bought one and RN came and got it back due to multiple quality concerns based on visual inspection only. Plus, the ancillary equipment (water pump, manifolds, fuel pump, carb, alternator) is all used stuff that is in 'servicable' condition at best. Check out the pictures below of the engine that I originally received from RN. When I asked RN to quote me a top quality rebuilt complete engine, the price I was quoted was $7500 :eek:. I found it to be more cost effective for me to buy the Turner long block and dress it out myself with new Genuine parts and parts that I rebuilt from my original engine.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/000_1099.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/RUST.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/MANIFOLDSTUDSA.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/CLUTCH.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/WATERPUMP.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/000_1093a.jpg

For reference, this was the picture shown on the RN web site for the RNE568 Engine that I purchased:
(Big difference, huh?)
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/RNE568engine.jpg

[JackIIA]

wow

[SGS714]

I also have a quote from Turner Engineering and we are at $4530 with current pound conversion delivered as a stripped engine. That is well below British Atlantic's price before ship. I will post ACR $'s when I get this deal put together. At this point I am looking at the 2.8l based on the 5 bolt block with tuned intake, carb, performance cam, and header. My gut is all this will run $1500-2000 more, including ship, than the Turner.

[Tim Smith]

That engine is what I imagine any typical MOD rebuild would look like. I for one think it's a good thing that our hosts are sourcing them even if they aren't going to fit well in a 100 point truck.

I have to agree that some of that hardware would be best swapped out before slotting it into the engine bay but really, these are MOD rebuilds. Can we expect anything more? ;)

[LaneRover]

I put one of the MOD rebuilds in my 109 P-up and it was great. The only thing I changed was that I kept the rochester that was on the truck when I bought it.

Which means somewhere I have a rebuilt solex sitting around . . .

The MOD doesn't mind spending $$$ on a re-build or new parts for such a re-build. As mentioned earlier though, these brilliant new parts could have been put together by some inbred slack jawed yokel who was still pissed off over his decision to take the army over prison.

Maybe I got lucky but I have been very pleased.

[jac04]

...but really, these are MOD rebuilds.
No, they are marketed & sold as RN rebuilds, with the RN price tag. RN only uses the MOD rebuild as a 'core' for their rebuild. If they were sold as a MOD rebuild, then I would agree with you.

[JackIIA]

I gotta agree with Jac04 on that one. I love RN and Les and Arthur have ALWAYS done right by me...but I'd be unhappy to receive the engine Jeff got after the outlay of cash, MOD or otherwise. To RN's credit, they clearly took care of the problem when it was presented. And I've found they've done the same for me on other issues over the years.

[Tim Smith]

I suppose I read it to be MOD rebuilds and not rebuilt by RN. I can't seem to find these on the site for sale? Did RN stop selling them?

[jac04]

They are still listed, but don't know availability:
http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-5824-use-rtc2352g-or-rtc2352a-generator-or-alternator.aspx

[Broadstone]

This post makes me think people have given in and cast aside a rebuildable engine for something they just drop in. Where do these poor things end up?

[Tim Smith]

They are still listed, but don't know availability:
http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-5...lternator.aspx (http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/../store/p-5824-use-rtc2352g-or-rtc2352a-generator-or-alternator.aspx)Maybe it's me but I'm not seeing a deception with that description. As stated on their page, I bet they really are "ready to run." Maybe just not ready to run to the Concours d'Excellence.

Don't read my take on this as an attack on your position or second guessing your experience. Obviously you didn't get what you expected. That much is clear. But at least they dealt with it correctly and refunded it for you. Correct?

I don't think it's fair to shun our hosts for offering a motor that is probably going to do just fine for most owners out there. If nothing else, at least it's an option to compare against when someone is looking for a replacement motor.

[LaneRover]

This post makes me think people have given in and cast aside a rebuildable engine for something they just drop in. Where do these poor things end up?

Right now mine is in the box that the MOD engine came in , sitting in my garage. I pulled the head off of it to fix the head on my 109 SW.

The plan is to re-build it so I have a spare.

[Tim Smith]

This post makes me think people have given in and cast aside a rebuildable engine for something they just drop in. Where do these poor things end up?
Although I've probably shot my credibility for defending that ugly engine pictured above, I would gladly rebuild a 2.25 rather than buy a new one. So if anyone has any of these ship anchors sitting around gathering dust, just let me know. :D

[kevin-ct]

People who can, rebuild, people who can't, buy a rebuilt :D

[Terrys]

The complete engines listed on the RN site are rebuilds of already-rebuilt military engines that they have done by a local shop. I bought one and RN came and got it back due to multiple quality concerns based on visual inspection only. Plus, the ancillary equipment (water pump, manifolds, fuel pump, carb, alternator) is all used stuff that is in 'servicable' condition at best. Check out the pictures below of the engine that I originally received from RN. When I asked RN to quote me a top quality rebuilt complete engine, the price I was quoted was $7500 :eek:. I found it to be more cost effective for me to buy the Turner long block and dress it out myself with new Genuine parts and parts that I rebuilt from my original engine.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/000_1099.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/RUST.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/MANIFOLDSTUDSA.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/CLUTCH.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/WATERPUMP.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/000_1093a.jpg

For reference, this was the picture shown on the RN web site for the RNE568 Engine that I purchased:
(Big difference, huh?)
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/RNE568engine.jpg
Those pictures tell a whole story. Repainted is not rebuilt. A proper REBUILD will start by removing all the core plugs and freeze plugs, then boiling the block. There wouldn't be any evidence of rust, or old flaking paint. It doesn't look like the head was even off that engine Jeff. If the seller of that engine told me he had them bebuilt, I wouldn't buy it and would be suspect of wear internally. How do you renew the timing chain, and tensioner without pulling the front cover? How do you renew the mains and rod bearings with pulling the pan? How do you lap the valves and ridge the bore without pulling the head?

[Broadstone]

Well we are much better at saving what we have than our fellow owners in the U.K. as they discard many useful engines there. Even the 2.5 NAD, turbo and petrol engines do not mean much to them when the TDI's go in.

[Tim Smith]

From the description page.
A complete solution to a tired engine. Ready to run. These engines are complete with ancillaries. Designed for unleaded with performance 8:1 cylinder head. *Core charge for cylinder head only $ 100.00.

USE RTC2352G (http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/../store/p-5826-complete-engine-225l-wgenerator-iia-clutch.aspx) OR RTC2352A (http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/../store/p-5823-complete-engine-225l-walernator-s3-clutch.aspx)



Part#: RNE568It doesn't say it was rebuilt. In fact, it doesn't say anything about their source at all. :confused: Maybe this was a change in sales policy?

I have to take a step back because it seems Jeff was told these engines were rebuilt state side. If that's the case then I too would be upset as a buyer to receive that.

[kevin-ct]

We should rename this thread! To, the engine that Jeff was unhappy with.

[jac04]

Sorry, didn't mean for it to turn into that. I just wanted to make sure that what happened to me doesn't happen to someone else.

[SGS714]

Placed order for new engine today with ACR. Roland is the owner and very helpful.....should have right before xmas if all goes well.

177 FtLb @ 2300 RPM 117 BHP @ 4100 RPM.

ACR 2.8 Power Plus engine package, includes stage 2 head, Power Plus
Cam and Power Plus carb and intake etc, with all bits to convert from 3MB
Tubular 4:1 exhaust manifold
Thermostat housing + thermost + water*pump
Side plates, oil filler tube, engine mount brackets, engine mounts*etc, all prepared, painted and fitted with new fasteners.
Air freight
$7100

Will keep you posted after I receive.

[Mountain132]

That's great, the perfect xmas gift. Can't wait to see picks. I honestly hope it gets lost in shipping and ends up in my garage.

The worst part now is just looking in your driveway everyday you come home from work hoping it's there, or do you have to pick it up which would ruin the surprise

[gchinsr]

I have wanted one of those forever, but too rich for my blood new. There is a GOD, as I just bought a EBay low mile used 2.8 5MB going to Roland for a freshening/check up before sailing after holidays. Huge upgrade from opening up everything inside the engine to breath better.

[junkyddog11]

I have never understood the idea of a performance Series 4cyl but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. ACR does a great job. I just don't particularily like the way they drive. The power is there but it is at a different rpm range. Reminds me of a 2 stroke motorcycle...."peaky".

RN has been looking for cores to rebuild (or they have asked me several times but....I keep them for my own rebuilds), which would suggest to me that they are rebuilding them locally.

[Eric W S]

I have never understood the idea of a performance Series 4cyl but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. ACR does a great job. I just don't particularily like the way they drive. The power is there but it is at a different rpm range. Reminds me of a 2 stroke motorcycle...."peaky".

RN has been looking for cores to rebuild (or they have asked me several times but....I keep them for my own rebuilds), which would suggest to me that they are rebuilding them locally.

x2. A nice rebuild from a local shop and the 2.25 does nicely. The 2,2,5 is what it is.

$7,100 for that motor is a complete rip -off.

[rejeep]

177 FtLb @ 2300 RPM 117 BHP @ 4100 RPM.

isnt that in the series gearbox unhappy area?

[KevinNY]

That will be fine, look at the RPMs to be at those numbers.

[I Leak Oil]

That will be fine, look at the RPMs to be at those numbers.

Ya, your ear drums and fillings will cry uncle long before your gearbox does at that RPM.
As for the cost, I could care less what someone else spends their money on.....as long as their not spending mine!

[JackIIA]

A bit of a tangent, but if someone is kind enough to list the specs on an expensive item and include the cost, I for one really appreciate it. Not only does it provide a benchmark, but it increases bargaining power for anyone in the future who might take that route. If I know customer A paid X, I know not to pay more than that and if there is enough data, I may pay considerably less. Just a thought to avoid shutting down communication.

Getting off the soapbox now.

[gchinsr]

What many forget at looking at these numbers is, that is peak power and torque. What you forget is with new cam profile, and improved breathing, is the torque curve starts much lower with more available torque through to peak. Plus nothing beats extra displacement for power and torque improvements. IMHO

[gchinsr]

What many forget at looking at these numbers is, that is peak power and torque. What you forget is with new cam profile, and improved breathing, is the torque curve starts much lower with more available torque through to peak. Plus nothing beats extra displacement for power and torque improvements. IMHO

[gchinsr]

sorry all to double tap
Cheers
Greg

[mongoswede]

Ill admit that when I read you were paying $7k for an a built gas engine I nearly coughed up a lung. The performance numbers on it look good and if the build and finish quality are all top notch then its a little easier to understand....add to that any warranty and the turn key appeal and that's another plus. I go around in endless circles when thinking about rover engine swaps. There is a certain appeal to the stock rover engine for its simplicity. There is appeal to a rover v8 for the sound and grunt...then there are all the v6, v8, turbo 4, and diesel possibilities. If I ever ever build my 3 door 109 I am leaning towards a merc 300td engine.

Good luck with the acr unit and be sure to post pics, performance reviews etc. When it all comes together.

[gchinsr]

I was lucky to find a low mileage used on on Ebay UK, it's at ACR as we speak, and is having the head removed to check internal condition. All the ancillaries,are being replaced, and replacing the points with an electronic unit. I was just about to swap a TDi, when I found this engine. Thing is, any body with basic skills, or any garage can fix this motor, it doesn't get much simpler, other than No points, which can be swapped out. Another benefit that is overlooked as well, is extra breathing capacity of the motor does wonder at higher altitudes as well, with a simple jet change for nose bleed heights. You have near V8 power, at a fraction of fuel usage, and a heck of a lot less weight. With the constuction of the Hi roof adding only about 20k, with low COG, Light weight interior, and super efficient lighter engine, this is the best combination for an expedition type camper I could come up with. There is no one size fits all, this is what I think is the best of available components for my son, and my trip to South America, at about 40% the cost of new.

[KevinNY]

Actually a Rover V8 weighs a good bit less than the 2.25 unit. Your gas mileage won't be much different either, my ACR 2.25 got about 11-12MPG.

[gchinsr]

This is true, I stand corrected.
Greg

[SGS714]

Below is pic before shipping...
.4408

[Cutter]

pretty...

[stomper]

I think you would be better off with the standard exhaust manifold. I'd be happy to take that one off your hands. :D

[Tim Smith]

I think you would be better off with the standard exhaust manifold. I'd be happy to take that one off your hands. :DNo NO! I'm closer... Better give it to me. :D

[jac04]

Very nice looking. Even I would be happy with that!

[Crash]

Could you give us an idea what the freight side of this order is???

C

[SGS714]

Could you give us an idea what the freight side of this order is???

C

A lot more than I wanted. Brought a RPI 4.6 V8 over last winter and it ran around $625usd, this one is costing me $956usd.

[SGS714]

I think you would be better off with the standard exhaust manifold. I'd be happy to take that one off your hands. :D

Roughly $340usd + shipping to you from me and I can get Roland to put another pair in the box for you.

[yorker]

Terry, I was hoping you would chime in...I appreciate your very to the point and in my opinion accurate thoughts. My mechanic can do anything but doesn't have any 1st hand knowledge rebuilding these engines....and we decided for an extra $1500ish why not just save us all the work of sorting out all the nuances that it takes to make this a pleasure to drive.



Find a new mechanic- rebuilding a 2.25 isn't exactly rocket science. If he isn't willing to do the work that is pretty telling.

[yorker]

This post makes me think people have given in and cast aside a rebuildable engine for something they just drop in. Where do these poor things end up?


Ben Smith and Cristina Calado(I think) bought like 25 old 2.25 engines from that old shop in NH. So some people salvage them. There isn't a huge market in single cores though. I've seen a lot stored for a while over the years before someone finally gets sick of walking around them and scraps them. I junked my last core 2.25 when the price of scrap went up, no one wanted it.

[yorker]

You have near V8 power, at a fraction of fuel usage, and a heck of a lot less weight. With the constuction of the Hi roof adding only about 20k, with low COG, Light weight interior, and super efficient lighter engine, this is the best combination for an expedition type camper I could come up with. There is no one size fits all, this is what I think is the best of available components for my son, and my trip to South America, at about 40% the cost of new.

You also have an engine of smaller displacement and higher weight that will have to work harder
to overcome the aerodynamics and weight of the vehicle. Even an American iron V8 could be roughly the same weight and far greater displacement. Swapping to a V8 or V6 doesn't always mean a penalty in fuel economy or complexity.
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/fuel_economy.htm

177 FtLb @ 2300 RPM 117 BHP @ 4100 RPM @11mpg

With a 4 the biggest advantages are the simplicity of the install and the lack of mods required to the drivetrain due to the small gain in power.

[gchinsr]

The owner of this engine stated average of just over 14 mpg( D110) with lots of mud play. In speaking with Roland at ACR with the addition of the Magnetronic points replacement, and 110 specific exhaust (more efficient tan Series), 16 +mpg will be normal. I am saying, peak power doesn't tell the whole story, it's the improved usable power band that makes the big difference, I will not running around at peak RPM's all day. Yes if the throttle was always on the floor, it would suffer greatly, and probably do your stated mpg, but that is not my intention, or how I drive. To me, the increased engine efficiency is the greatest advantage, nothing more. I think this engine is a great upgrade, and best suits my needs, and wants. Just as SGS714 is stepping up and acting, so am I, and thrilled about it as well.
Greg

[mongoswede]

I pulled the block apart from a Saab 9-5 that had a piston break apart at 60000 miles for some reason. Block, crank, etc are all in good condition. Engine is a 16v low pressure tubo that makes about 185 hp and equivalent torqe. I believe its a 93 mm piston...not sure on stroke...probably fairly square. Though its not the ultimate truck engine its an easy one to play with. Hp/torque in the 250/250 range is easy. Playung with turbo selection and fuel injection tuning can bring power on line at lower rpms. Nice compact crossflow design...could easily build into a rover with all adapters for much les...I'll take notes if I try it out.

[SGS714]

I am saying, peak power doesn't tell the whole story, it's the improved usable power band that makes the big difference, I will not running around at peak RPM's all day. Yes if the throttle was always on the floor, it would suffer greatly, and probably do your stated mpg, but that is not my intention, or how I drive. To me, the increased engine efficiency is the greatest advantage, nothing more. I think this engine is a great upgrade, and best suits my needs, and wants. Greg

X2 what Greg said.


x2. A nice rebuild from a local shop and the 2.25 does nicely. The 2,2,5 is what it is.

$7,100 for that motor is a complete rip -off.

And I think someone that spends $7100+ on a galv chassis and a flawless bulkhead and then repaints everything after cleaning every nook and crany is not quite right, but I would not say they ripped themselves off....No....We all value different aspects of these great trucks. I value a powerplant that runs flawlessly and will pull me and a couple guys and a dog trailer to any remote hunting site I choose and more to the point.....I want it to get me home also, without having to work on it or having 10 trucks stack up behind me going up a grade....That adds stress to my life. I don't see the value in a shiney frame, but I can appreciate them.

I can be in the field with 3 guys....One might have $300 pump shotgun and another have a $7000 side by side from Italy.....and I carry anything between a $1500-$5000 gun, but none of us cares, we are all enjoying the sport. Don't even get me started on dogs and the spread in dollars invested among my freinds.....We all value different things.

When I'm not working, hunting, or spending time with my family I am probally sleeping....I do not have the ability or time to turn wrenches and value dependability and the no stress benefits of an engine that cost me $7100. I will own this truck for a long time....after amortization I don't care what the engine cost.

You want to feel rightious...feel rightious towards the guy that pays $140k from Orvis for a truck...not me and my total investment of $13k for a solid truck and fresh engine.

Ok...I feel much better now that I got that out of my system, please carry on with your discussion.

Scott

[gchinsr]

You bring up some good points Scott. We all have wish list, want lists, and needs lists, based on our own individual values, and pocket books. But to say it's a "rip off", when someone steps up and upgrades his vehicle, to suit their own needs, is not right, just insulting. Would it be any better to spend $10k for a HS2.8 TGV base conversion kit, then need to upgrade the drive train to cope with the extra power? To some it would, and myself personally,not. That's my opinion, and would simply say, great engine, not on my list. Land Rovers are about individuality, improvising, and using whats available to you to make them work best for our needs. You want a $60k+ pretty truck to go to the mall, looks nice, only have $2k to make a runner, great job. Point being, neither owner is smarter, or more ignorant, just two people doing what they want. The world would be awfully boring with 1 Land Rover for all, based on 1 person's opinion.

[yorker]

The owner of this engine stated average of just over 14 mpg( D110) with lots of mud play. In speaking with Roland at ACR with the addition of the Magnetronic points replacement, and 110 specific exhaust (more efficient tan Series), 16 +mpg will be normal.

UK Gallons or US gallons?

[yorker]

The owner of this engine stated average of just over 14 mpg( D110) with lots of mud play. In speaking with Roland at ACR with the addition of the Magnetronic points replacement, and 110 specific exhaust (more efficient tan Series), 16 +mpg will be normal. I am saying, peak power doesn't tell the whole story, it's the improved usable power band that makes the big difference, I will not running around at peak RPM's all day. Yes if the throttle was always on the floor, it would suffer greatly, and probably do your stated mpg, but that is not my intention, or how I drive. To me, the increased engine efficiency is the greatest advantage, nothing more. I think this engine is a great upgrade, and best suits my needs, and wants. Just as SGS714 is stepping up and acting, so am I, and thrilled about it as well.
Greg

You are still pushing around a ~5,000lb + truck with a small displacement overworked 4 cylinder. A 2.8 may have more capacity vs. the 2.25 but it is creating that via more fuel and air consumption. You still don't have a crossflow head or any other advances that will make a vast improvement in the engine's efficiency. Look at your torque to weight ratio and consider the drag coefficient of a LR is ~.59 and frontal area is ~37ft2. The only way you are going to get greatly different fuel consumption is with a more modern engine design or a diesel. What I am saying is don't expect any miracles.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
As for nice shiny galvanized frames- they aren't just for that sexy shine, in the rust belt it is $ well spent :thumb-up:.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/sIII/gotframe.jpg

[Tim Smith]

5000#? Well, I guess my truck diet works. :p

[gchinsr]

Originally I was going to swap a diesel, until this engine popped up on Ebay. It was mentioned earlier that the 2.8 is only good for ease of swapping. The 200Tdi requires only a few mods for the intercooler, and fuel delivery, no biggie.I would have to learn all I can, and wrench a lot before i leave to be self sufficient with any Tdi, which have taken away much time that could have been used in vehicle preparation. Now I have an engine optimized to the best standards possible, without negatively sacrificing reliability, that I can repair myself. Perfect for my needs. And bringing up the argument that its too this, or too that, is just opinions. How did countless travelers ever survive, or complete a trip with a, gulp, stock grossly under powered, inefficient engine, impossible right? Its not all about the engine, as there are more than one to choose, but the whole package we are able to put together. My ambulance weighted at Tillbury with a quarter tank was 1603k, light starting point. I do intend to keep it as light as possible, and travel light. As for the aerodynamics, my interior has roughly an extra 35sq ft over stock roofs, and how do you think I will compare with a 110 that needs a full roof rack, and RTT. Not to mention the COG and handling advantage I will end up with. My guess, a tad better, which I will require less power to to maintain the same speed, with better economy. There is a pattern here in the specs, and add them all together, I think I will end up with something just a little better in the end. That is exactly what this engine is, a little better breathing, a little extra displacement etc...I am not building this for anyone except my son, and I, based on what we are best able to put together for us. Modern engines are not all gems, some dogs have ECU's. I never said it will get 30 mpg, and climb K2 in third gear, or that I need that, only it will suit my needs, nothing more. BTW, I don't recommend this engine for you, and hope that your choice suit your needs. Merry Christmas all.
Cheers,
Greg

[Bertha]

5k? You could get a complete turner enginer for that. Course you'd be wasting money. For less than half that you can have it rebuilt locally to the same effect...

Less than half????? The machine shop work alone is around 2k for a proper rebuild and that is without buying parts. Not sure where you are getting your figures from......good luck with that.:rolleyes:

[mongoswede]

Less than half????? The machine shop work alone is around 2k for a proper rebuild and that is without buying parts. Not sure where you are getting your figures from......good luck with that.:rolleyes:

Guess it depends on what is being done. Local race shop to me will lighten a flywheel for $90, do a 3 angle valve job with cleaning, and head planing as necesary, and valve seals on an 8v head as needed for $200. Not sure what they charge for measure/inspect the cylinder bores, boring, and honing on a 4 cylinder but I doubt its much more than $500 - $750. So for about $1000 you should be able to get all the basic machine shop work done. Now this bill will of course go exponential if you get into balancing, blue printing, crank grinding, knifing, extrude honing, titanium rods, forged pistons, double valve springs, etc etc....but then again this is a rover engine...you would have to be rather foolish to dump that much work into a 2.25 motor (or really friggin obsessed ;) ).

[yorker]

Originally I was going to swap a diesel, until this engine popped up on Ebay. It was mentioned earlier that the 2.8 is only good for ease of swapping. The 200Tdi requires only a few mods for the intercooler, and fuel delivery, no biggie.I would have to learn all I can, and wrench a lot before i leave to be self sufficient with any Tdi, which have taken away much time that could have been used in vehicle preparation.


The TDi is simple, and the learning curve isn't steep. It wouldn't require a lot of work to get to know it well enough for such a journey. There is always the 2.5 and 200Di too if you want added simplicity. There are other even better choices out there but I assume you want to stay with the Rover part's box for simplicities sake.



Now I have an engine optimized to the best standards possible, without negatively sacrificing reliability, that I can repair myself. Perfect for my needs. And bringing up the argument that its too this, or too that, is just opinions. How did countless travelers ever survive, or complete a trip with a, gulp, stock grossly under powered, inefficient engine, impossible right?


They drove slow used a lot of gas and eventually got there, the same thing you are going to do. The 2.25 and its derivatives are a slow, thirsty and overworked but pretty reliable series of engines. At low speeds the 4 cylinder gas engine's thirst for fuel can be alarming. Don't discount all the "opinions" you find here, many of them are a result of genuine first hand experience over the decades with these things. Everybody has an opinion but some of them are very well informed and the result of years practical knowledge.



Its not all about the engine, as there are more than one to choose, but the whole package we are able to put together. My ambulance weighted at Tillbury with a quarter tank was 1603k, light starting point. I do intend to keep it as light as possible, and travel light. As for the aerodynamics, my interior has roughly an extra 35sq ft over stock roofs, and how do you think I will compare with a 110 that needs a full roof rack, and RTT.


They usually a penalty of at least 2-3MPG with a V8 powered Rover with a roof rack, it is likely you'll see the same. Then again it depends how fast you travel too. The physics of the matter is just one of those things you can't escape. Naturally the slower you go the less and less this has an impact.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/3/1/e31430f0898268091f410282a89503b1.png



1603KG/3530 Lbs for a starting point is pretty light, ask around for the average expedition weight of these trucks. Post here what it weighs when you are fully kitted out for this adventure. :thumb-up:

[gchinsr]

I did look at many options, just don't have your same opinions. Better choices for who? Are you driving this vehicle? What am I only supposed to use what you want me to use. What is the big issue, I get it, you don't like the engine, so don't buy one. But to say I am wrong in my choice is just ignorant. That is your opinion, nothing more. I don't need a whole lot of extra power, as it will not be loaded anywhere close to max weight. I have a somewhat unique vehicle, and am taking advantage of that fact. I am not using it for a rock crawler, just a long trip south, off the beaten track sometimes. So my choice will suit me just fine. End of story. If it bugs you that much, buy it and lets see what you will do, if anything.Then we can start a new thread, and I will tell you why your choices are all wrong. The reason I brought up the extra interior capacity, is because it will allow me to NOT have a roof rack, and it is a sleep in conversion. Yes you have a formula for drag on the hi top roof, but it is a lot more aero than a loaded roof rack, with a RTT. Or is that wrong too? I must have a roof top tent? I will have a fridge, it that cool? Here's a great formula: I bought it+ My choices+ My cash+ My build= My Land Rover The math does not lie. I like friendly banter, it's entertaining, but insisting that you alone know all, is just getting boring.
Cheers
Greg

[junkyddog11]

I will not running around at peak RPM's all day.
Greg

I think you'll find that you will be much more often than you'd think. Not trying to be critical, just realistic.

[Eric W S]

Less than half????? The machine shop work alone is around 2k for a proper rebuild and that is without buying parts. Not sure where you are getting your figures from......good luck with that.:rolleyes:

Several race shops around the Midwest. And that is a la cart service with full balancing/blue printing.

Guess I am lucky :rolleyes: or at least not getting ripped off...

[Eric W S]

Guess it depends on what is being done. Local race shop to me will lighten a flywheel for $90, do a 3 angle valve job with cleaning, and head planing as necesary, and valve seals on an 8v head as needed for $200. Not sure what they charge for measure/inspect the cylinder bores, boring, and honing on a 4 cylinder but I doubt its much more than $500 - $750. So for about $1000 you should be able to get all the basic machine shop work done. Now this bill will of course go exponential if you get into balancing, blue printing, crank grinding, knifing, extrude honing, titanium rods, forged pistons, double valve springs, etc etc....but then again this is a rover engine...you would have to be rather foolish to dump that much work into a 2.25 motor (or really friggin obsessed ;) ).

x2. Basic Machine work, a basic balance and some porting isn't even close to half of what the total cost of an ACR or Turner delevered is and offers the same performance, with the added benefit of supporitng local craftsman...

[yorker]

I did look at many options, just don't have your same opinions. Better choices for who? Are you driving this vehicle? What am I only supposed to use what you want me to use. What is the big issue, I get it, you don't like the engine, so don't buy one. But to say I am wrong in my choice is just ignorant. That is your opinion, nothing more. I don't need a whole lot of extra power, as it will not be loaded anywhere close to max weight. I have a somewhat unique vehicle, and am taking advantage of that fact. I am not using it for a rock crawler, just a long trip south, off the beaten track sometimes. So my choice will suit me just fine. End of story. If it bugs you that much, buy it and lets see what you will do, if anything.Then we can start a new thread, and I will tell you why your choices are all wrong. The reason I brought up the extra interior capacity, is because it will allow me to NOT have a roof rack, and it is a sleep in conversion. Yes you have a formula for drag on the hi top roof, but it is a lot more aero than a loaded roof rack, with a RTT. Or is that wrong too? I must have a roof top tent? I will have a fridge, it that cool? Here's a great formula: I bought it+ My choices+ My cash+ My build= My Land Rover The math does not lie. I like friendly banter, it's entertaining, but insisting that you alone know all, is just getting boring.
Cheers
Greg

Sorry you have gotten your panties all in a twist. Yes it is your truck and you are free to do what you want with it. All I am trying to tell you is that your expectations are unrealistic. BTDT. You are entitled to your $, your truck, and your obviously uninformed opinion but not your personal version of physics.

What the hell do we know though? feel free to prove us wrong.

[Terrys]

gchinsr, I don't recall if you said where you and your son plan on going, in South America. It would appear from your comments that you've given some thought to the trip, but, from my perspective, you've overlooked some points in favor of assuming the best. While a Land Rover may be a good platform for the typ of trip you're planning, there are Land Rovers, and there are Land Rovers. It's certainly never been considered a 'one size fits all", evidenced by the vast array of configurations.
Having a newish engine does not guarentee a trouble free trip, so, will every potential problem have a fix waiting for you at the next town? Are the componants unique to the ACR petrol engine available everywhere? There aren't as many Land Rovers running around S. America, like there used to be. You may find a dealership willing to help out, but willing and able differ vastly from country to country.
Have you considered that fuel costs, with the exception of Ecuador and Venezuela, range from 10% more than US, to 70% more. Couple that with a range of less than half of a diesel vehicle of equal tankage, you may well find yourself planning your trip around fuel stops. I can't claim experience with an ACR engine, but having had more than 3 dozen Land Rovers of varying engines and configurations over 45 years, I think you're overly optimistic with your fuel consumption figures. Driving down there simply isn't like any, ANY parts of the US mainland. Also, my Defender 110, weighing half again as my 88, gets 25% better milage.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_gas_pri-energy-gasoline-prices

[gchinsr]

Hi Terry
The long stroke crank is from the Ford truck engines manufactured in South America, the rest is all land Rover. What spares I don't have on hand, my family can ship me spares from home. What isn't clear to all, is after this trip, it will be stripped out, and be a run around for fun truck, and that is why I am happy to have it a petrol. I have always been a petrol head, and like the way a petrol responds, and drives. I have nothing against diesels, just does not fit my needs here. Yes the fuel cost are more,the range is less, but that is fine, and not an issue. I was only wanting another 25hp over stock, with a little more torque to be happy honestly, so this engine exceeds my expectations. I have just bought a lifting roof for a 110 in the UK, and will build a 110 with a diesel for this roof. That one will be a dedicated camping truck, built with different parameters, and intended usage.I hope this clears up why I chose the 2.8 ACR lump, and not a TDi

[LaneRover]

to be honest if we all thought the same about stuff the world over we most likely wouldn't be driving old Land Rovers in the first place!

[greenmeanie]

Am I the only who has noticed that the truck in question appears to be a Defender? I suppose I should start by asking for the specs for the drivetrain? What engine is in there now - at worst it would be a 2.5 petrol from the factory? If it is a Defender I would expect 3.54 diffs, LT77 or maybe an R380 mated to an LT230. The transfer case could be the make or break of that engine as you have high ratio choices of between 1:1 (ish) up to 1.6:1.

[gchinsr]

It is a 110 first registration AUG 1984. It has a 2.5 petrol with a Lt77, and a 1.6 T/C and runs fine. It would cruise at 65 all day in 5th stock, and hit 85, but be a bit scary. I loaded it with 800lbs spread out in the rear to get an idea of power requirements. It ran fine through 1-4, but was not accelerate in OD. It held speed fine, even on slight upgrades. This is where the 25 extra hp number came from. It's not a race car, and don't expect it, just a slight upgrade needed for the extra weight.
Greg

[albersj51]

If your old drivetrain needs a home, let me know! :)

[/B][/B]QUOTE=gchinsr;64176]It is a 110 first registration AUG 1984. It has a 2.5 petrol with a Lt77, and a 1.6 T/C and runs fine. It would cruise at 65 all day in 5th stock, and hit 85, but be a bit scary. I loaded it with 800lbs spread out in the rear to get an idea of power requirements. It ran fine through 1-4, but was not accelerate in OD. It held speed fine, even on slight upgrades. This is where the 25 extra hp number came from. It's not a race car, and don't expect it, just a slight upgrade needed for the extra weight.
Greg[/QUOTE]

[gchinsr]

Here is some info on mileage. While many are saying mileage will be scary low mpg, due to average weight of average expedition vehicle. This is not an average anything, now, or when I have it ready to leave. Lizzy will not be loaded down with every piece known to man, nor have every creature comfort. I will construct the interior as light as possible, while being durable enough to make the trip. That being said, will take a lot of stress off the vehicle, which should help with reliability. We all drive different, and there are too many variables to guess. The question never arose before I purchased the motor, and asked later on. The previous owner real world figures are 14+ off road, and on last trip laning in France, loaded for two was over 16mpg. This is with points in the dizzy. I am installing a Magnetronic points replacement in a new dizzy, with exhaust modifications, and talking with Roland I should get 16+ off road, and expect more with long highway stretches. I have no reason to doubt either statements, as I had already bought the motor, and Roland's reputation is on the line. I will have 145ltrs aboard, and doubt fuel will be a problem. I will research fueling a little further out, when a rough route is better defined, and have extra Scepters if I think it will be a problem. Almost sounds like everyone would be happier if I got a diesel Toyota LC, which has about 1/2 the interior space as Lizzy.

[mongoswede]

Here is some info on mileage. While many are saying mileage will be scary low mpg, due to average weight of average expedition vehicle. This is not an average anything, now, or when I have it ready to leave. Lizzy will not be loaded down with every piece known to man, nor have every creature comfort. I will construct the interior as light as possible, while being durable enough to make the trip. That being said, will take a lot of stress off the vehicle, which should help with reliability. We all drive different, and there are too many variables to guess. The question never arose before I purchased the motor, and asked later on. The previous owner real world figures are 14+ off road, and on last trip laning in France, loaded for two was over 16mpg. This is with points in the dizzy. I am installing a Magnetronic points replacement in a new dizzy, with exhaust modifications, and talking with Roland I should get 16+ off road, and expect more with long highway stretches. I have no reason to doubt either statements, as I had already bought the motor, and Roland's reputation is on the line. I will have 145ltrs aboard, and doubt fuel will be a problem. I will research fueling a little further out, when a rough route is better defined, and have extra Scepters if I think it will be a problem. Almost sounds like everyone would be happier if I got a diesel Toyota LC, which has about 1/2 the interior space as Lizzy.

I think its pretty clear that everyone would have been happier if you just bought a prius :D

[Eric W S]

That was funny.

Personally, I just don't get the whole "expedition thing" anyway. Just seems like a huge waste of time, money, and vacation.

[mongoswede]

That was funny.

Personally, I just don't get the whole "expedition thing" anyway. Just seems like a huge waste of time, money, and vacation.


its easy to get caught up in the "Expedition" preparation and end up going way overboard and then of course never going on said expedition. I don't think I could stand driving a rover so many miles...I'd much rather do it on a motorcycle.

[gchinsr]

Having undergone a 12.5 hour spinal reconstruction surgery, my time available to do a trip of this magnitude is limited. The surgery was not to make me better, only to keep me from being paralyzed from the damage of an accident after my first surgery. At the rate I am going, I have about 3 years before this is not possible. My son, now in college busting balls to make a better life for himself, wants to take a break after graduation, and wants to spend time together with dad, and see South America. what better way to do this. This has nothing to do with getting caught up in anything. I am an optimist, and rather act, and move forward, rather than do nothing and complain about this and that. If We are not able to make the trip as planned, then we can modify it as best as possible. Diesel, petrol, not as many Land rovers anymore, blah blah blah we are not siting on our butts, we are doing the best we can, with what we have. Isn't that what Land Rovers are all about. Funny how this comes from simply one person telling another great motor, happy for you. Sounds like a bunch of Toyo purists lurking and naysayers who have nothing positive to say about anything. Done.
Cheers,
Greg

[LaneRover]

and some folks don't get Land Rovers!

Greg, I think it is great that you are planning the trip with your son! Especially if you think that you have limited comfortable 'Travel time' left. I would love to go exploring all over in my Land Rover whether I call it camping or an expedition.

I look at the difference between camping and expeditions like my jobs in film. Camping is like a commercial, it might be for a day or two or even a week. An expedition is like a TV series, it could last for months or even years - but I'm still doing the same type of work.

[gchinsr]

Thanks for that. Having to retire at 43, almost 8 years ago, things have been a bit tough. Engineering has provided me a comfortable life, great working projects, and traveling all over, doing what I do.And even though my health is not the best, I choose to live on. Sure things move slowly most of the time, but I am doing something constructive, with a goal to attain. It's all to easy to criticize others sitting on your couch, I choose to get the hell out of Dodge while still possible. How many of your children out there want to spend time with you? And I'm suppose to worry about this engine, or that engine, or aerodynamics? Wrong answer. I am pretty much the luckiest dad out there, and will be out there on the road with my son enjoying our time together, that is all that matters. People forget what is important, I feel sorry for you, you are the ones in bad shape. This thread is way off base, and I apologize to all for that. I have stated my opinion, and I'm done. I have work to do.
Cheers,
Greg

[lrdukdog]

Do what you want to do. And in the words of the late great Warren Zevon "Enjoy every sandwich." That pretty much sums it up.
Jim Wolf

[Terrys]

Greg, you're one of the few lucky parents whose kids want to spend time with them, and that's a gift today.
I've got a dozen years on you, and my twins are grown. One is stationed in the CG in Kodiak, AK, so as far as "expeditions", BTDT. I agree with the premise that too many people put too much emphasis on making their Land Rover an 'expedition' vehicle, when all they end up doing is going camping. Personally, I love comping out of my Defender, but unless I somehow got warped back to my 20s, would prefer to do any expeditions in a nice Roadtrek or other such mini motorhome. Here's why, and maybe your orthopedic surgeon would be wise to check into this too.
Stock Defender seats are in no way, shape, or form, appropriate for anyone with back issues. In fact, leafer, or coil sprung, anything other than the cushy new stuff is the only LR you ought to be playing with.
I replaced the seats in my defender in '02, and they are far better than stock, with high bolsters and lumbar support. That said, 6 hours from here to our place in Maine is absolute hell and I pay dearly. I too have back issues, and it's only because Ive been playing with Land Rovers for over 40 years that I keep doing it. I'm not a total masochist though, I do have a pretty nice Volvo wagon with damn nice seats.
You seem to get kinda pissy when people say something that sounds like a wrench in your works, and I think engines should be the least of your concerns. I'd hate to set off on the trip of a lifetime with my son, and begin regretting it 500 miles into the trip. You can get pissy with me too if you want. My son has way more enthusiasm than I do, and sometimes I have difficulty not joining in. I don't want to remember something we did together as the worst experience in my life.

[I Leak Oil]

Do what you want to do. And in the words of the late great Warren Zevon "Enjoy every sandwich." That pretty much sums it up.
Jim Wolf

Exactly! I'm not sure why anyone would get all bent about what someone spends their time or money on. It's their junk, they can do what they want.
To argue about HP numbers or mileage, etc. is one thing but some of this is just outright dumb.....

[mongoswede]

Exactly! I'm not sure why anyone would get all bent about what someone spends their time or money on. It's their junk, they can do what they want.
To argue about HP numbers or mileage, etc. is one thing but some of this is just outright dumb.....

I disagree...people should only spend money on what I tell them to because I know whats best for everyone. :D

[Eric W S]

I disagree...people should only spend money on what I tell them to because I know whats best for everyone. :D

Wait you're Nancy Pelosi?

The only one getting bent out of shape is the OP. This thread had a lot of good information contributed to it that would have saved the OP both money and time for both trip and truck. :rolleyes:

www.expeditinportal.com (http://www.expeditinportal.com). Wade through the BS yourself. There was at one time good info on that forum, at least till the poseurs over ran it...

[gchinsr]

Hey Terry
It's not from people throwing a wrench in the mix. It from people who assume that their opinion, is the only one that matters. It's from people who assume one is an idiot, because someone chose to spend their money, on what would make them happy. Not make you happy, make themselves happy. Huge difference there, and that is just rude, plain and simple. There are too many "assumptions" such as stock defender seats. I have series type seats with 3 different foams in them, that are much thicker, and ten times more comfortable the defender seats. I have put roughly 3k miles on, testing the weight distribution, and calculating power needed, driving between 100-300 miles a day, and the seats are just right, thank you. And the assumption that I should only drive a new Cushy Mobile? You do actually like Land Rovers by the way? Right? I am not assuming that 500 miles into the trip we will be miserable, perhaps you would if you took the drive. Your assumptions just do not apply here. Did you assume I thew darts on a board to make my choices? Seems that way. I don't assume anything, I think things out quite well, and will have it well sorted long before we leave. I know what I am capable a lot better than any one else, and I always push myself to that limit, that's just me, and to me how I am going to be at any point in time, is the biggest joke ever. It's very funny how the assumptions come at me, then when I have an explanation for my choice, you assume it's wrong anyway, because you assume only you are right. What I am doing, is fine for us, no assumptions, just facts. Now that engine choice, and seats are covered, what next, Don't like my choice of wheels? Have a great day!
Greg

[Terrys]

You do actually like Land Rovers by the way?
3 dozen in 42 years, what do you think?
I wasn't 'assuming' anything. You only just brought up the back surgery issues, and I didn't make any assumptions, I made a statement based on years of experience, for both myself and countless friends I have accumulated along the way.
But, why am I not surprised you took my comments the way you did, and came back with another pissy response. You're nothing if not consistant.

[I Leak Oil]

Wait you're Nancy Pelosi?

The only one getting bent out of shape is the OP. This thread had a lot of good information contributed to it that would have saved the OP both money and time for both trip and truck. :rolleyes:

www.expeditinportal.com (http://www.expeditinportal.com). Wade through the BS yourself. There was at one time good info on that forum, at least till the poseurs over ran it...

No, Nancy would take your money and spend it then tell you what it went to after she found out herself what she spent it on! Pass the bill then find out what's in it...gotta love it!

Anyway, there is some good info here. The OP obviously decided to go the ACR route anyway. Who gives a dog log what he spends his money on? It's his money. The most we can hope for is that someone else will come along and use the info to their advantage what ever that may be. All this other crap is just that.....

Agreed about ExPo, still a fun place to waste time though.:D

[Cutter]

Please leave politics out of this and all discussions. thanks. we get enough of that outside of the rover bubble.

P.S. I think this thread has passed its useful point as well.

[109 Pretender]

I agree- have it rebuilt locally. Your mechanic will remove and replace - if he can't do that get a new mechanic because the complexity of a series Rover is 2 steps above a B&S lawnmotor. Research and find a competent machine shop. Those guys are who's going to "rebuild" your engine. A good machine shop will have the specs, or you can supply the specs for the clearances on the pistons, bearings, etc. (Rover shop manual)

The great thing about engine building is that 0.004" clearance is the same whether your working on a Rover or a Rolls Royce.

If your mechanic is "unsure" that he can perform the work - he can't.

P.S. your budget is quite generous and you should have money left over even if it's a total major engine rebuild.

Good Luck!