WHIRRRRR, then silence.

[andrew]

A few months back, my Rover ('70 SIIA) made an awful, loud whirring sound when I tried to start it up (it did not start, just the horrible sound). I jumped out and disconnected the battery, stopping the sound; inspected things (ignition switch, coil lead wire, etc.), found nothing obvious; replaced the battery ground cable and pos cable and starter solenoid; things worked again, all was well.

My wife had the same problem this weekend (of course when coming from the airport long-term parking at 1am). She did not disconnect the battery, but rather called (and woke) me, so I got to listen in my disoriented state to what at first I was sure was a prop. plane engine, but turned out to be the truck making the loud whirring sound again, until it died off all on its own after a few minutes. The next day (no, I didn't strand her, she took a cab home) I push started the truck and drove it home the next day, suggesting the engine etc. are fine.

Since I had a spare, I replaced the ignition switch and checked the usual wires/cables. No luck. The battery is good. I have power to the starter solenoid and the starter. It does not turn over.

I suspect the awful sound was my starting firing to life but not engaging, then eventually dying. Anyone able to confirm that before I either pull the starter to check it out (I guess I'll be able to tell if it's frozen) and/or buy a new starter...?

Thanks for any help/opinions/ideas anyone is able to offer, I appreciate it.

[ignotus]

Andrew, you are right your solenoid is not engaging the gears from the starter to the flywheel. The starter should aslo stop once the key is off. If it is running on you possibly have a closed connection where all the wires come together at the starter.

gene

[siii8873]

if the solenoid is seperate from the starter (stock starter / solenoid setup) it may be staying closed. This would keep the starter energized when the key was released.

[andrew]

I have a stock setup -- solenoid on the firewall and starter separate of that (thus, the only connections on the starter are power and ground).

Am I hearing that the problem is potentially in my (new) solenoid (not properly interrupting the power to the starter when the key is moved from the start to the run position)?

[siii8873]

you can easily check the solenoid. Remove the lead from the solenoid to the starter. Connect a voltmeter or test light fom the starter lug on the solenoid to a ground. Turn the key to the start position and release it to start. Have some one wath meter / light. Should work in concert with the key switch. Of course this will not test for an intermittent problem of the solenoid hanging up. If this is fine hook the starter back up and try it again. You can keep the test circuit intact to verify solenoid operation.
If this does not turn starter over check starter ground strap connections.
This assumes you have a good battery. If this all fails probably a starter problem.

[LaneRover]

I had a problem with my 65 when I tried to start it and heard a buzzing (but not the starter spinning without engaging) then no electrics throughout the car. I disconnected the battery and a little bit later reattached it. The electrics worked again but when I tried the starter again the same thing happened.

The truck would push start and be fine but something was seriously wrong inside the starter that would somehow 'lockup' all the vehicle electrics. I am probably very lucky that nothing got fried.

I put a re-built starter in and it was fine.

[cgalpin]

I just opened up my starter on a '63 for a different reason but can tell you they are very simple and I'd take a look at it before buying another.

[andrew]

An update and a new set of problems...? Any help is greatly appreciated.

I checked things out more: the battery when the truck is off was registering 12.3 volts. The solenoid showed the same 12.3 volts at the post coming from the battery, when the ignition was off ( or on, but not in start position). The solenoid showed 0 volts at the post going to the starter motor when the ignition was off (or on, but not in start position). When in start (cranking) position, the solenoid showed 12.3 volts going to the starter, and returned to 0 volts when cranking position was released. This all seems to me to be correct: the solenoid is doing its job of regulating the current to the starter according to the ignition.

Checked all grounds, connections, etc. All looked good (battery and starter ground wires are newish anyway).

So, pulled the starter and connected it directly to the battery (pos to the post, neg to the body). Nothing.

One rebuilt (stock) starter later...

First, "bench" tested the starter (ok, it was on the ground under my foot, connected directly to the battery) -- it spins when it did not used to. Yay.

Re-installed the starter (by the way, read many old posts on here and I'll confirm again that the exhaust can be left in place when pulling the starter and putting it back in). Cranked it up, got a whirrrrr...starter spinning but not turning the engine over... Pulled starter out (and noticed that the body was not perfectly flush with the flywheel casing, suggesting a possible misalignment), confirmed again that it actually works (grounded the starter with a jumper cable, connected starter post to solenoid; it operated as it should, spinning only when in "start" position).

Put starter back in. Now, spins the engine, turning it over, suggesting that it was not properly seated before. Yay. BUT, though it spins the engine, it is very slow and weak -- turns the engine over for maybe a quarter second at a time (just a blip). It's as if the starter just doesn't have enough power or something. Engine does not start.

That was yesterday. Today, same very slow turning over of engine, but it started. Yay. Kind of: shut engine off, tried it again -- slow turn over again, but it started again, BUT starter was spinning on, in spite of the fact the key was in run (not start) position. So, my problem of the running starter was back. Pulled the battery cable to shut it all down, and set up the voltmeter to confirm that, in fact, even after I've gone from start to run position on the ignition, the solenoid is sending power to the starter. This does not happen all the time, but pretty regularly now...

So..I see 2 issues:

(1) The engine is turning over only weakly under all circumstances now. This was not the case prior to the starter rebuild, etc. Is 12.3v on a standing battery indeed sufficient, as I think? Is there another cause of the slow cranking?

(2) It would appear that I have an intermittent solenoid problem (at least that's what it sounds like to me). I believe this was the original problem months ago, when I put in the new solenoid. The odds against 2 solenoids going bad this way, however, make me wonder if it may be anything else, or if there is some related problem that would cause the solenoid to go bad in this way. Ideas?

Other info that may (or may not) be relevant: the solenoid wiring seems simple to me. One post, nearest the battery, has the pos battery cable and 2 other thick wires to it (alternator and continuous hot lead I'm guessing). The other post, nearest the firewall, has only the starter positive cable going to it. There is one spade terminal further down (presumably the ignition wire?). I also replaced the ignition switch as a first step in this drama recently -- I just put the wires on the new unit where the wires on the old unit had been. Don't think I mentioned before, but it's probably obvious: 2.25 liter petrol, mostly original but with alternator.

Thanks for any help or ideas anyone can provide, I really appreciate it.

[bkreutz]

Regarding the slow cranking, might be a ground or voltage drop problem, here's a link to a site that has a good explaination on how to do a voltage drop test. http://www.vernco.com/sparks/id606.htm if the voltage is low or the ground is weak (in effect a low voltage condition) you can experience symptoms like you describe. HTH

[SafeAirOne]

When you use jumper cables connected to another (running) vehicle, does the starter spin the engine over at a normal speed (suggesting a spent battery or charging problems)?

Also, I believe it's just spring force that retracts the starter drive once the ignition switch is de-energized. If you had an improperly aligned starter before (not permitting engagement of the starter and the flywheel), it may be possible that it is misaligned in the other direction, allowing engagement of the starter drive, but not disengagement.

Ordinarily, I'd think that the tolerances are so huge on the starter drive gear-to-flywheel mesh that it'd be unlikely to get stuck engaged, but then I never thought it could be so far out of alignment that the starter would spin without engaging the flywheel either.

[albersj51]

I think SAO is on to something...check the battery. I read somewhere (not rover specific) that the battery needs to be 75% full (12.4 v) in order for the starter to spin normally. Since you're getting 12.3v at the battery and weak starting I would look at the battery first.

As for the stater not disengaging, no clue. However, perhaps they are totally unrelated?

[RoverForm]

i don't have anything productive to contribute, except that i've recently begun hooking this charger up to the battery to keep it fresh and fully charged.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MuNe7pQEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/CTEK-Multi-Smart-Battery-Charger/dp/B000FQBWCY

this way i can almost always rule out the battery when trouble shooting electrical issues.

[fred98050]

An update and a new set of problems...? Any help is greatly appreciated.



Put starter back in. Now, spins the engine, turning it over, suggesting that it was not properly seated before. Yay. BUT, though it spins the engine, it is very slow and weak -- turns the engine over for maybe a quarter second at a time (just a blip). It's as if the starter just doesn't have enough power or something. Engine does not start.
.

Andrew,

I do not have a lot of experience with the Land Rover (learning curve going up pretty fast though...).
When I got my 1964 truck, the starter was working great. 3 weeks later it would spin for about 3 seconds before quitting. A week later it was doing exactly what you described.

- Checked + & - connections
-Changed the battery
-Changed the solenoid
- Removed the starter for inspection, tested fine on the bench.

Still would not work while installed....:(

I finally got a newer high torque starter as replacement and problem solved....

I hope that you'll be able to find a cheaper solution to your problem, but if you decide to replace the starter, these little high torque starters are doing a great job...


-Frederic

[andrew]

Most recent update -- had the battery tested: it was good, but also needed a charge. It went from 12.3v to 12.8v, which I would have thought was not a major difference. It was, though, as this small increment provided enough power to turn over the engine just fine, and the truck started.

I'll diagnose more later, since I believe that the underlying problem likely still exists...unless someone can confirm for me (and explain to me) how a slightly undercharged battery can result in the solenoid staying in closed position when the ignition goes from start to run positions. I also haven't yet confirmed that the system is charging the battery yet.

Thanks for all the ideas, and I'll keep plugging away on it since I actually think the truck is more entertaining as a driver than as sculpture in my driveway...

[cgalpin]

Make sure the starter switch isn't sticking I guess.

[SafeAirOne]

Most recent update -- had the battery tested: it was good, but also needed a charge. It went from 12.3v to 12.8v, which I would have thought was not a major difference. It was, though, as this small increment provided enough power to turn over the engine just fine, and the truck started.

Well, consider that a battery with < 11.9 volts is considered to be discharged. A battery with 12.7 volts is considered to be fully charged. Check out: http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html

Similar (but not exactly the same) info from another site:

http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/voltchart1.gif