May just have to give up.

[printjunky]

For the record 1974 SIII, 2.25, Zenith, Pertronix, pretty stock except for a GM alt, Ford Brake M/C. and a modern fuse box grafted in. Stored for 11 years (after some pretty high-quality (not restoration-quality, but really good) work was done on it), before I finished the wiring and got it back on the road about a month ago. Since then, nothing but putting out fires.

1. Still getting carbon fouling - badly (and VERY bad mileage). Every 3 hours driving - maybe less - I have to pull 'em and clean 'em. Tuned and tuned and retuned the newly rebuilt (proline kit) carb (float level included). My guess is something is wrong that requires another rebuild. Other symptoms include poor acceleration and overall lack of power (After adjusting the fuel level down a bit from right on (1.23") to little lean (1.26")). Might be too lean, but #2 cropped up and deviated me (plus it's been in the single digit temps outside - and no garage!). Was pretty good, just VERY rich before the float adjust. Running lean-seeming, still indicating rich, though (the carbon fouling - and the smelling like a refinery). Oh and just barely any idle with the screw turned all the way in. (haven't readjusted the idle mix after the float level, though - as I said, #2 and cold getting in the way).

2. Cannot get it to circulate coolant consistently. First time (last week after fixing a leak) it wouldn't move the fluid, a good burping got it going. Perfectly. Good circulation, holding a consistent 150. But this time - just today (after limping home about two miles at a time to avoid a severe overheat last nght) - spent most of 3 hours outside today in 4 degree (-1 windchill) checking the thermostat (boiling water test, opened around 190) pouring water right into the block (via 'stat housing) to try and avoid an air bubble and nothing, just sitting there overheating slowly. NO leak from the water pump. Yeah, I know it could be a rotor problem, but it seems unlikely that it would intermittent to the point of 100% working great one day, then not working at all. Yes, I know it's gotta be something like that, but it's certainly odd. Anyway, never got circ. And had starting problems (even pulled the plugs and cleaned 'em up, all dry and fully carboned.) My feet (3 hrs later) are just starting to feel fully thawed. (it does just occur to me I have an odd PO installed aux heater that used to be plumbed with and "H" tube, but I now have run inline with the stock heater - that could be something ...)

3. (when it was running) It definitely sounded and felt like it was not firing on all 4 when it was cold. Idling (even high) doesn't seem to get it to kick in. It doesn't "come to" until the first few seconds of driving it. Definitely not firing right somehow. Timing's been checked 10 or 12 times. Also, the valves sound pretty noisy (have not been adjusted). This could be related to #1 and/or #2. eg: Could be getting some fuel wash in the cylinder (and so the oil - thinning it). And I might be noticing it more when it's running hot from the no circ. condition. Too mny things going wrong to diagnose at this point. They sounded fine on the last I had it running tonight to see if I was getting circulation/cooling/heat.

This is my 3rd SIII, and the other one I drove the most was crazy reiable. Sure I had some intermittent electrical issues and some expected faults (snapped a half axle, weber started leaking once) but that was about it over 3 years. And I drove back and forth from Orono to North Conway several times, apparently without a thought of not making it. This current level of uncertainty and stress is taking its toll (combined with temps 30-degrees below average for this time of year and me doing all this in my back yard!). Maybe i'll ease up a little when it gets back up over 20. But right now Rover life sucks.

[Terrys]

(In my best John Wayne voice) SNAP OUT OF IT, KId! Never throw in the towel, unless there's a French maid standing there to hand you a fresh one.
You may very well have some ignition issues going on here, but I seriously think your fueling issues are Zenith related. You're describing ALL the symptoms of a warped body (I have a warped mind)
Also, you need to get hold of a small probe type thermometer, and stick it in the radiator, get a good idea of whether it's really overheating, then start looking for a voltage stabilizer/guage issue.

[junkyddog11]

and for petes sake adjust the damn valves.

[NickDawson]

(In my best John Wayne voice) SNAP OUT OF IT, KId! Never throw in the towel, unless there's a French maid standing there to hand you a fresh one.
You may very well have some ignition issues going on here, but I seriously think your fueling issues are Zenith related.

Here here! Don't give up -we've all been there (want some entertainment in quality whining? Search my threads). As painful as it is to do, give yourself a day to cool off too and then tackle it again. You'll get there and we'll be standing by to provide advice (worthless on my part, quality from others) and encouragement.

I think Terrys may be on to something with the ignition thought. Do you have points or electric ignition? Either way, might be worth throwing in a new $15 set of points and condenser, gapping them and seeing what happens.

I dont know anything about the zenith other that what I've read here and seen in the Riverport Rovers videos - anyone close enough to you have one that you could swap for a day just to see? Tall order I know, but I'm all for being cheap and instant gratification - a rare mix.

[73series88]

yeh those zeniths are nothing but trouble
id drop a weber on there. not much hassle once its setup
and new points and condencer.
i put my truck together over last winter with no heat outside. many many long hours in the frreezing cold but, if you walk away for a while it will help clear your head.
dont give up. we have to keep these beasts on the road.
aaron

[lrdukdog]

yeh those zeniths are nothing but trouble

Do the "glass" method to be sure you have Zenith Warp. You know remove it, clean the bottom and set it on a flat peice of glass, ( you can put a light smear of Vasoline on it) and see if it is warped. If it is just throw the damn thing away and get a Weber or Rochester. But for your sake just calm down, it isn't unfixable, have a nice Single Malt and take a deep breath.
Jim Wolf
BTDT myself

[RoverForm]

As painful as it is to do, give yourself a day to cool off too and then tackle it again.
given his description of the ambient temperatures, i think he's cool enough!

[printjunky]

Ok, MUCH cooler-headed today (made into the double digits outside, too!)

I did de-warp the Zenith by the way. (And for the points suggestions, note that I have a pertronix installed).

The main headache-inducing issue (besides temps 20-degrees below normal, right when this happens combined with no garage - of course!) is the frustration of the compounding effect of the two problems on top of each other. I knew I was going to have to chase down further carb gremlins (And other things would crop up, of course. It's only been back on the road for a month! (after 8 years in a Wisconsin barn and 3 years in my driveway)). I was basically waiting for a break in the weather on the carb. But then I suddenly got the no-coolant-circ. condition. (and intermittently - remember, I was getting GREAT circulation just a day before, and the water pump is not leaking) So I can't even keep it running to try and lean up the carb, or test various setups. I guess what I'm saying is I don't mind a troublesome, but running Rover. A non-running Rover really gets me down, though!

So the Rover was running (not well, but running pretty consistently) but with no circulation, overheating (over 180 on the gauge (secondary, not the one in the dash) under load, within about 3 minutes), so I have to figure out the coolant problem first, before tackling the carb or the valves - or anything else, really.


Passages are apparently clear, as evidenced by the great circulation and cooling/heating I had a day before. I also poured water into the engine via the thermostat housing, and it flowed right out of the open block drain. Same with the radiator, water in the top comes right out of the open bottom tank drain. Not an absolute test, but indicates mostly free passages.
No Coolant leaking from the water pump, indicating no traditional failure (could still be an impeller problem, though that would be a somewhat rare occurrence, I think)
Coolant in the rad stays cold, while the block heats up.
Thermostat tests perfectly (suspended in a pot of water on the stove it opens right at about 190 degrees.) It has the "burp hole" in it.
I cannot say for sure amid all the noise, but the water pump could be making noise, often an indication of impending failure anyway, but why it would not be pumping until it fails, I don't know.




I have not tried it without the thermostat in, to see what happens. Should be no different, as I tested the thermostat, but perhaps something is keeping the thermostat cold enough that it doesn't open? seems unlikely since the engine eventually approaches 200 degrees.
I have not checked the lower hose for possible blockage.
I have not checked the heater core(s) for flow (remember I have an aux heater plumbed inline - fluid runs into the main heater, then right through the aux heater - I know, not as efficient as a dual or split run, but it was easier to plumb).
Is there any kind of check I can do on the water pump impeller without removing the pump? (eg: loosen the belt and rotate the fan and feel anything?)

Any other diagnosis steps anyone can think of?

[Terrys]

You didn't put the thermostat in upside down did you?

[printjunky]

Good call, but no. And the condition existed (and also did not exist) before I ever touched the thermostat. Which should have implied it was not the culprit, anyway, but it was easy and worth checking.

[Nium]

How old are the radiator hoses? If they're the same ones that sat in the barn (or wherever it was for 11 years) perhaps there is an internal delamination of a hose that allows a flap to block off the hose. Don't know of any way to check without removing the hoses and looking in them. Unless of course you had replaced the hoses and know for sure they're sound.

Had you flushed the block and radiator before firing 'im up. You know take off the rad hoses and garden hosed them good. If not maybe there's a mass of gunk in the rad or engine block that's causing a blockage. If there isn't coolant pissing out the water pump and it doesn't move an excessive amount of play when the pulley is grabbed and moved up and down (with belt on or off) then pump probably ok.

A method I know to burp a vehicle is to jack the front end way up in the air while filling the radiator. Heaters fully open. With rad cap off start engine and run until the thermostat opens and top off as needed and then cap up rad. Coolant will spill out of the open rad. You want the rad opening higher then the block therefor any trapped air will migrate to the open rad.

Zenith-maybe you have the wrong jet and emulsion tube for your altitude. Sorry, I don't know which would be the right ones :o. Does tightening the 3 screws of the triangular cover (economy device) on top of the carb change anything?

What numbers do you get on a compression test?

Perhaps adjusting the valves will cure it all.

Have you tried facing toward Solihull and offering a blood sacrifice to the Rover Gods?

[printjunky]

hoses are new (maybe not the intermediate - don't remember, but it's in good shape if I didn't replace it).

Everything very well flushed (did get out tons of gunk!) before I replaced a freeze plug recently.

I've actually been thinking all day (now that it's up to 18!) of giving it another go in terms of the filling and the burping. Not much else is making sense, in this case. As I said, nothing leaking from the pump, and no significant shaft play.

Compression test remains undone at this point. Might warrant a gauge purchase. Per your very educational suggestion, Walker, I recently bought a vacuum gauge,but haven't hooked it up yet to check those results yet. I suppose I could put a cold adjust on the tappets and see what happens.

I did check the economy device screws on the Zenith, but I just read someones recounting of finding that their new economy device seal was still not adequately sealing and causing very rich running. I'll check that out as well, if I get the coolant problem licked. And see if I can find out what jets I should have.

And I'm not sure what direction I was facing, but have made a fair share of blood sacrifices recently! In fact I'm surprised I didn't have to lop off a few toes after 3 hours out there in the low single digits last night! (the single digits could have resulted in single digits).

[NickDawson]

How old are the radiator hoses? If they're the same ones that sat in the barn (or wherever it was for 11 years) perhaps there is an internal delamination of a hose that allows a flap to block off the hose.

I sat through a video of an intravenous scope via a cardiac surgeon recently and saw that exact phenomenon on a person- scary! Happens exactly like that, lose flap inside peals off, flow of fluid forces it into the tube and presto, a blockage.

My suggestion, we get your rover into the cath lab and pump some of this dye they use on patients and put it into the 64 slice CAT scanner for a diagnosis...

Sorry - little humor. It sounds like you are making progress. Congrats on sticking with with it - will pay off soon!

Question - maybe I'm missing something, you said it it got to 180 and then you shut it off? Why not let it get to at least 200 to make sure the thermostat has a chance to open and circulate cooler fluid? Then again, 180 within 3 minutes in cold temps seems like an overheating condition.

[printjunky]

Nick, that was just on the last test. It had previously gotten to 200 without circulating. Plus, the gauge normally reads around 150 when coolant (and heat) is flowing fine. So my guess is that if I'm getting nothing circulation-wise at 180, it's not going to happen.

Also, I have my employer checking on the eligibility of my Rover as a dependent for the purposes of getting insurance to pay for the diagnostics up at Mayo clinic. Might as well throw in a scope up the tailpipe to add insult to injury.

[albersj51]

This may be stupid, or you already checked, but are you sure the gauge is right? In temps that low I figured it would take more than 3 minutes to show signs of overheating.

[Jim-ME]

150 seems awfully low. Mine runs at 170 to 190. If it didn't I'd never get any heat out of it.
Jim

[siii8873]

If you take the Tstat out and run the truck you should see circulation through the radiator with cap off of course.

[printjunky]

So I go out again, after work last night to try a couple of ideas, and they seem to hold promise that it really was just a burping issue. Between messing with some hoses - particularly the heater system - I got some bubbles and the system took another couple of quarts of fluid. Good sign.

Go to start it, and have a no start situation. And it definitely doesn't sound like it wants to start. Turning over, just nothing else. Something's up.

So I start the basic check process:

Getting fuel?: Yes
Spark?: No spark at the plug
Trace it back and check the coil: Spark at the coil.

So it must be distributor or leads. So I pull off the cap, and the brass contact piece on the top of the rotor has been sheared right off!!! No sign of the rivet that holds it on, and there's a small chunk of bakelite missing from the rotor.

What the #$@^%!!??

The lugs on the cap are also scored, but not crazy badly.

Anyway, I have a spare rotor, which takes 20 minutes to find in my basement shop, but when I put that on, still no start, though when I check for spark at the plugs I now have (what looks like a weakish) spark. So it should be firing. I had to give up move on to other things at that point.

I seems to have spent most of my life having what I might call bad Carma. Which was no surprise when I had my first car - a 65 Mustang I rebuilt on a shoestring (and again outside) when I was 16. Or when I drove that weird 65 American Ramble or the little $300 12 year old Honda Civic with a zillion miles on it, each for a semester in college (Not to mention the 74 Series III I drove in college). But I also bought a brand new Chevy S-10 in the late 80's that left me stranded several times, and in the 3 years that I owned it went through 3 computer brains and 2 transmissions. And there was the brand new 2000 VW GTI I bought that was in the shop for warranty work 9 times in the 3 years I owned it. That all ended when I bought my Miata. It has been the most incredibly reliable thing I can imagine, except for basic maintenance, a brake job and a trans/diff fluid change I did at 60k, the only thing EVER to go wrong is that one of the bulbs behind the heater controls sometimes goes out, but if you slap the side of the console it comes right back on. But now with the Rover ... I seem to be back in some Carmic hell.

The reason I'm telling you this, is to explain a bit, what might appear are my extreme reactions to what might appear to be routine vintage Rover glitches. But to me it feels like deja vu, all over again.

[Cutter]

So it must be distributor or leads. So I pull off the cap, and the brass contact piece on the top of the rotor has been sheared right off!!! No sign of the rivet that holds it on, and there's a small chunk of bakelite missing from the rotor.

What the #$@^%!!??



This happened to me a few months ago. Truck died while driving, took me a bit to figure it out. Thankfully I had a spare as well, though getting to and from the truck was a pain. I was pissed at the time, but this is the trade off for rolling in such a classy rig...

At least you got the burpin' taken care of.

[bmohan55]

I have 2 Rovers and a 2001 Miata, guess which one is the only one running right now? Oh, and they are calling for 3-5 in of snow tonight! (I know it's not much snow but believe me, southern snow and the idiots that think they can drive like always thru it is MUCH worse then the northern snow and experienced drivers).

Sorry, really can't offer any advice to your Series problems, just acknowledging the reliability of the Miata.

[xsbowes]

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h152/bryanseye/Miata002.jpg

[stomper]

I had an '88 S-10 blazer, and went through 2 engines, and 5 transmissions before I traded it, so you are not alone on that one!

I had a rotor button die on me this summer, but since you are getting spark, perhaps you have crud on a coil wire? Does the spark look weak at the center plug on the dizzy too, or just at the plugs? Trying to isolate the reduced spark to a specific component with this test.

I went to school at Husson in Bangor, I don't know if you were in Bangor while I was, but we all had POS cars back then. :)

[printjunky]

Yeah, the spark *looks* weak, though I am a one-man-band, trying to judge from four feet away, craning my neck out to see as I turn the key. I wasn't able to delve too deeply into it after I discovered the broken rotor. So I'll give it a shot again tonight and see what it looks like.

Cutter,
Well put, and I'm sure I'll agree with you, as soon as I'm ROLLING in that classy rig, and it's not just sitting in the driveway mocking my very existence.

[printjunky]

bmohan55,
Like those Rover names!

And while every first snowfall seems to bring out the boneheads no matter how far up in the snowbelt I am, I'll bet it's multiplied exponentially anywhere south of the M&D.

[albersj51]

I've got an '02 BMW 530i, that requires a good bit of maintenance, but never lets me down, my Rover (obviously) that lets me down a lot, and a 1990 Miata. That dang Miata is bullet proof (knock on wood). My GF drives it mostly, but in the 3 years Ive had her only had to do maintenance.

I travel to Davenport for business every quarter, I'll drop you a line next time I'm there; always like seeing Rovers.

As for the problem: check from coil to plug and see where the spark is "weakening" (as suggested). I got my coil wet a couple months ago (new Flamthrower) and the truck wouldnt start because the spark was a weak blue. Put on the old coil from my spares and she fired right up. If you have a spare coil you may want to give it a try...perhaps your coil is dieing...