strange event

[siii8873]

Drove my rover today, shut it off and starter it a few times. After the second time and it being off for about 15min, I started it up drove about 1/2 mile and it quit / stalled. I cranked it , pumped gas nothing, would not fire. Got out checked coil connection battery connection (new yesterday) all good. Cranked it some more, starter good battery good, no start. Pulled air filter off carb did not smell much gas.
Got back in put it in first gear let off parking brake and cranked it a touch. More or less confirming that the starter was engaging which I was sure it was. The car lurched forward a little a fired a touch. Pushed in the clutch and it started and ran fine?? Don't quite undestand what went on here. Think it must be coincidental that it started this time. Can't imagine what having the gearbox engaged would have to do with the car starting. Puzzled on what happened here, is it going to bite be in the you know what down the road?
BTW I drive this rover just about every day it is my main vehicle.

[bkreutz]

Yes, it will probably bite you in the ... down the road. I'd suspect a loss of voltage to the ignition, either in the switch or a failure of some part of the circuit (coil, points, etc.). Tough to impossible to diagnose if it's starting. I'd take a voltmeter (or test light) along so if it happens again you can verify voltage to the coil when in the "no start" mode. Intermittent electrical problems are the toughest to deal with, I've been a mechanic for over 40 years and it hasn't got any easier.:D Good Luck.

[artpeck]

I had almost the exact set of symptoms in my D-90 (and I think if you search you will find a similar thread to this one).

It will come back and bite you. Nothing "heals" despite one's desire that it might. Mine bit me when I was navigating a winding hilly road and it quit and I wasn't expecting no power steering. And then again in the left turn lane at the busiest intersection in town on a Friday afternoon. Awkward.

With mine issue I ultimately "fixed" it (which is as you know a relative term with a rover) by going through every connection in the ignition loop and cleaning each one, crimping to insure they were tight and using dielectric grease. Since doing so it has never stalled nor failed to start immediately. Obviously I did this after eliminating fuel as an issue and component failure in the ignition system.

The hard part of this is that you never really know what you fixed so you only know it if it stops happening.

[SafeAirOne]

SIII ignition switches are notoriously lousy, and a pain in the arse to change, to boot.

I bet that the next time it happens, you'll find that there's no power on the white wire that's supposed to be feeding the coil 12v when the ignition switch is in the "run" and "start" positions. This is the same wire I use to power the fuel shutoff solenoid on my diesel conversion.

I've had enough trouble with the SIII ignition switches that I've non-destructively bypassed mine altogether.

I use a small box with 2 switches on it: a master switch, which simulates the key in "run" position and a 3-position momentary-contact switch which is dead in the middle position, energizes the glow plugs in the left position and energizes the starter in the right position.

Haven't had a failure similar to the one you describe since I changed over.

[printjunky]

I wouldn't totally discount an intermittent fuel pump. Unfortunately tough to diagnose until it's not working. Just got surprised/stranded by this a week or so ago. And leading up to the failure my SIII was acting WEIRD. Unfortunately it also was quickly followed by a disintegrating rotor which also damaged the cap.

[RoverForm]

And then again in the left turn lane at the busiest intersection in town on a Friday afternoon. Awkward.
i absolutely HATE the left hand turn intersection stall. i get nervous every time...

[Tim Smith]

Sounds like it started while the truck was rolling. Which kind of sounds like a bump start to me. Which means it started firing after the starter motor was off. Which then leads me to wonder if the coil is getting full voltage while the starter is engaged.

Test for that and see if you notice anything odd.

[siii8873]

It's back, would not start again today. At least it is in the driveway so I need to do some diagnostics. The car does have an electronic ignition which could comlicate things.

[siii8873]

Well did some checking today. Unhooked the coil wire and hooked up a test light, all good. Poured a little gas in the carb and it started, ran a little, stalled. Did this again and it ran fine. Why would it not start but then run when it's primed with a little fuel?

[LaneRover]

Well did some checking today. Unhooked the coil wire and hooked up a test light, all good. Poured a little gas in the carb and it started, ran a little, stalled. Did this again and it ran fine. Why would it not start but then run when it's primed with a little fuel?

Either a small blockage in the fuel line or fuel filter that cleared or maybe a pump about to give out completely?

[Les Parker]

Bob,

Has the problem now been resolved?
Let us know if moving the fuel filter was of assistance.

Happy New Year to all.

:cheers:

[siii8873]

going to make that change today heated up the garage.
I'll let all know how it goes. Just so everyone knows I am moving my inline filter from down near the pump to just in front of the Tstat housing in a horizontal orientation. Thinking it could be a vapor lock.

[siii8873]

Some pictures of rerouted fuel line. KISS attachment for filter. Time will tell.

[siii8873]

since I rerouted my fuel line I have not had any more problems (Thanks Les)

[siii8873]

Well I spoke to soon, jinked myself. The rover quit on me this AM.
Started it up fine, let it warm up a little and started on a drive over to Vermont (about 8 degF). Got about a mile from home and it started to loose all power. If I backed right off I could keep it going a little but it got progressivly worse and then would not run at all. Tried a little fuel in carb as worked last time and it ran for real short time and quit again. Could not even drive it in 1st gear. Went back to the truck after about 15 mins, it started and went for about 100yds and quit again. The truck has run great until today only difference is that it is cold out.

[stomper]

This happened to me this AM also. I had some water in the fuel line. Purged it, and continued on my way to the store.

[siii8873]

I'm thinking the same, got it home and in the garage. Going to let it warm up a little and try it again.

[SafeAirOne]

I dunno---It really sounds like an obstruction in the fuel supply system to me. I probably asked this way back when, but does it start right up normally an hour or two later?

[siii8873]

It does seem to start and run normal for a very short ways after it sits. When I got back to it today ~1 hr it started fine and went for about 100yds then went bad again, could hardly idle it.

[SafeAirOne]

It does seem to start and run normal for a very short ways after it sits. When I got back to it today ~1 hr it started fine and went for about 100yds then went bad again, could hardly idle it.


Well...OK. That doesn't describe what I had in mind. You've got a bit of a mystery on your hands, I'm afraid.

[stomper]

If it were me, I think I would change the fuel line, and install a cheap electric fuel pump. You could even do this as a temporary diagnostic if you choose, much like printjunky did to get his rover home.

For some reason, you are not getting enough fuel to the carb. either a drop in fuel pressure, or a failing pump, or a blockage in the line.

[jimrr]

at first it sounded like ignition prob but what you describe on the last couple pages is definatly fuel and you get enough to fill the fuel bowl but when you start working the engine it eventually runs out.........
ususally, almost always, this indicates insufficient flow to the carb. plugged intake, pump issue etc.

[siii8873]

I decided to top off my tank and add some drygas as a first thing to try before I go crazy changing parts. I may have found something while doing this. When I removed the gas cap there was quite a vacuum in the tank. I had replaced the cap a while back. Law of physics can only pump out what air is allowed in. Not sure why the cold weather would make this worse. Is there a good way to vent the tank? I know the siii's originally had a vent system of hoses, charcoal canister, etc. What did the older vehicles use before this system?

[bkreutz]

I decided to top off my tank and add some drygas as a first thing to try before I go crazy changing parts. I may have found something while doing this. When I removed the gas cap there was quite a vacuum in the tank. I had replaced the cap a while back. Law of physics can only pump out what air is allowed in. Not sure why the cold weather would make this worse. Is there a good way to vent the tank? I know the siii's originally had a vent system of hoses, charcoal canister, etc. What did the older vehicles use before this system?
They used a vented cap.

[siii8873]

what's the best way to "vent" a newer style cap? The old style cap will not fit on SIII.

[LaneRover]

Did releasing the vacuum solve your problem?

Cold would make it worse because cold air makes everything smaller (anyone who swims in the ocean off of Maine can vouch for this). Not so much the gas itself but the air in the tank really contracts.

I would try driving with the cap a bit loose - or get a 2nd cap and drill a small hole in it. That way in the summer you can still have a nicely sealed gascap.

Think of the good part of this - now you know your cap seals well!

[SafeAirOne]

If it's a 2-priong cap, a replacement vented cap is only $8 if you shop around.

Looking at the picture of an un-vented 3-prong cap, you may be able to drill a small vent hole through the center of the inner liner and it'll vent through the channels on the outer shell, just like the vented 2-prong cap.

[siii8873]

I did exactly as noted I drilled a small hole in the center of the inside of the cap. Still need to test drive to confirm (if there is such a thing with these intermittant things). There was enough of a vacuum in the tank that I have some confidence it could have overcome pump capabilities.
That's a good idea to get a second cap for summer.
BTW this is a SIII with the three prong sealed cap. I checked they don't make a vented cap in three prong.
Hope it all was this simple!!

[siii8873]

Took the truck for a drive tonight all was well. Last time I said this the problem came back..... I think this was it this time.

[bkreutz]

I did exactly as noted I drilled a small hole in the center of the inside of the cap. Still need to test drive to confirm (if there is such a thing with these intermittant things). There was enough of a vacuum in the tank that I have some confidence it could have overcome pump capabilities.
That's a good idea to get a second cap for summer.
BTW this is a SIII with the three prong sealed cap. I checked they don't make a vented cap in three prong.
Hope it all was this simple!!

How is the vent system on your tank currently configured? Stock there should be a plastic line from the tank to a canister on the drivers side of the frame, then a vent line from that forward. I would think that system is presently blocked if you're building up a vacuum in the tank, maybe you could repair (or modify) that system to function.

[siii8873]

I've had two SIII's and this system was gone on both of them. My first one had the hoses running behind the seat box and a canister in the wheel well behind the drivers seat and a bracket in the engine compartment where another canister was located. The supply to this system was blanked off. There are no remnants of this system on this truck just the blanking plate on the tank.
These systems were a evap system, which I have seen in the green bible but never in service on a truck. The parts are NLA and usually just blanked off (RN sells the blanking plates for this).

[bkreutz]

I must have a rarity then, all the vent stuff is there. If you have a blanking plate, you could take it off, drill a hole and tap it for a barbed fitting, then run a vent hose somewhere (higher than the filler neck) and put a foam filter on the end of it. Or you could get fancy and put a valve that allows air in but doesn't allow fumes to vent out, but with my luck the first thing that would happen is the valve would get stuck closed.:D Or you could just leave the cap vented, They were all that way until the EPA got involved. (I'm not recommending this, just in case the "vapor police" are reading this.):sly:

[siii8873]

My only concern with the hole in the cap is getting moisture in the tank over time.

[SafeAirOne]

My only concern with the hole in the cap is getting moisture in the tank over time.

Forgive me if I misunderstand the above statement, but it prompts this response:


I believe that any fuel tank that vents to the outside air poses that risk.

Note that ALL fuel tanks are somehow vented to the outside air (or else they'd all develop vacuums as the fuel is being used, as you know).

I can't think of one that uses a desiccant or other type of air dryer, so I doubt your in any more moisture danger than all the other vehicles on the road by venting your gas cap.

The non vented gas caps still had vented fuel tanks--They were just vented through a charcoal canister.

[cousindave]

Siii8873: just drilled my cap after reading this post. My rig runs much much better. I also had replaced my fuel cap with a new one that sealed too well!

[siii8873]

Cousindave,
that's great that this post helped you. That's a great thing about this forum.
Bob