Transmission or Engine ?

[mrdoiron]

I need some advice here please...on my 69 IIa.

I recently had a u joint failure, following some transmission seal work done by a local transmission shop.

So I took it back to them as I figured it could have been related (per a previous posting I had). Turns out that the yoke portion of the rear drive shaft had a chip out of it and as such wouldn't secure correctly the new u-joint - so a new rear shaft went in (from Rovers north of course). Not sure if that caused the older u joint to fall out, OR if the shaft clipped the ground when the u joint came out not sure... regardless, the issue here is a new one :

While they had it, I told them that with the 'new seal kit' I had gave them for the transmission actually now drips even more...so "please check that also". So they did, re-sealed, shaft in - and home I went.

I noticed NOW however, that there seems to be far less power in all gears... with minimal pull, although it does go and cycle through gears fine... feels kinda like starting in second and never really picking up enough speed or power like before. None of the gears have any significant power...And top speed if far less also.
I moved it to low on the transfer and seems enough more pronounced in low with no real pull power ... is there a possibility they put it back together wrong yet still runs - geared lower ??? Or would this possibly be unrelated and something gone on the engine ?

Stumped and looking for thoughts on what could be happening before I take it back. It does sound a little different also...

appreciate some wisdom...

mike

[Apis Mellifera]

Sounds like they got the trans brake back on too tight. It's unlikely that you could disassemble a gearbox and reassemble it incorrectly such that it works fine mechanically, but somehow reduces performance in the way you describe. It appears to me to be a case of introduced drag. The most likely being an over-tight trans brake. If they (for some unnecessary reason) stripped the gearbox and TC to the bare case to replace the seals and gaskets, it's possible there is an end float problem (unlikely). So, I'd look at the trans brake first. It's the easiest to check too. This is assuming they didn't do any other work (timing adjustment, brake work). That would also cause sluggishness. I'm ignoring the possibility of the new prop shaft being stiff and needing to break-in. If it was stiff enough to cause the problem you've described, it would be faulty and apparent prior to installation.

Does the problem lessen as the temp warms up and you get some heat in the drive line?

[Terrys]

I agree with Apis. It sounds like a dragging E-brake. Easy enough to determine, and fix.
Or they used super-glue to seal up the leaks

[mrdoiron]

I agree with Apis. It sounds like a dragging E-brake. Easy enough to determine, and fix.
Or they used super-glue to seal up the leaks

Thanks - it is certainly strange.
I haven't noticed anything improve as she warms up, but then again I've not driven it far due to the lack of power/speed - only going to the home depot and back so far. I wasn't sue if I should drive it - or if that would potentially damage anything.... I'll take a few rounds around the block today and post back any findings.

thanks for the input so far, appreciated

mike

[SafeAirOne]

When you get back from Home Depot, is the handbrake drum too hot to touch, indicating dragging?

Coincidentally, I suspect that this is a good way to overheat the seals and get them to leak.

[mrdoiron]

When you get back from Home Depot, is the handbrake drum too hot to touch, indicating dragging?

Coincidentally, I suspect that this is a good way to overheat the seals and get them to leak.

I just got back in from a ride, and reading this I ran out to feel the handbrake it it didn't seem hot...although it has been parked 5 mins not sure if could have cooled in that time.

Two other things I noticed,
1. definitely even less power on an incline
2. the E-brake I tested while out, and it isn't holding very strong coincidentily as a smally declined surface with pulled full it still creeped forward..

mike

[Apis Mellifera]

After the next drive feel each hub to see if for some reason the brakes are dragging. Also feel the u-joints on your new prop shaft. I asked about the cold/hot change because I have a friend with a IIa that runs very thick gear oil. He says there is a noticeable sluggishness on very cold mornings.

There are a number of things that can cause a loss of power, so it's a matter of looking at the likely causes in each of the major systems and then narrowing it down from there. I'd still focus on the drive line from the TC since you had work done on that system and presumably it ran well before, but doesn't now.

[mrdoiron]

After the next drive feel each hub to see if for some reason the brakes are dragging. Also feel the u-joints on your new prop shaft. I asked about the cold/hot change because I have a friend with a IIa that runs very thick gear oil. He says there is a noticeable sluggishness on very cold mornings.

There are a number of things that can cause a loss of power, so it's a matter of looking at the likely causes in each of the major systems and then narrowing it down from there. I'd still focus on the drive line from the TC since you had work done on that system and presumably it ran well before, but doesn't now.

I also dont know what gear oil they used, but I would think after initial sluggishness it would not be a big factor... yet it does stay the same...

thanks,
will go out later today again.

[albersj51]

Did it drive normally after the tranny seals were replaced, but before the new prop-shaft? I ask because, if the interim time it drove fine, then perhaps you can narrow it down to one component over the other....do you hear the engine working harder to get up to speed; almost as if its supplying the power (higher RPMS) but that power isnt making it to the wheels?

[LaneRover]

This may be a bit too simple, but sometimes its that stuff that gets overlooked. Since they were working on the trannie and had to take out the tunnel and floorboards is there a chance that the floor mats (if you have them) didn't go back the way they came out and thus the gas pedal isn't going all the way to the floor?

[mrdoiron]

This may be a bit too simple, but sometimes its that stuff that gets overlooked. Since they were working on the trannie and had to take out the tunnel and floorboards is there a chance that the floor mats (if you have them) didn't go back the way they came out and thus the gas pedal isn't going all the way to the floor?

Just checked...in a somewhat "shoot me sorta way" , but no, the rubber mat is flat to the floor.
I enclosed a couple pics for reference - it'll seem a little odd, as I added both a removable cross member to enable trans our bottom, as well as a roughly fab'd skid plate...

thanks for triage help...

[Howsomever]

I would block the front wheels and jack up one rear wheel. With the transfer case in neutral what happens when you try to rotate the one wheel off the ground by hand?? It should turn freely.

[bkreutz]

Going back to the gas pedal idea, might be a good idea to check and see if you're getting full throttle when the pedal is to the floor. What I'm thinking is that maybe they removed the pedal (for whatever reason) and didn't get it back in the same position so now you're only getting partial throttle when the pedal is to the floor. (unless they decided to retard your ignition timing in retaliation for making them work on the vehicle:D). HTH

[scatterling]

not sure if it matters but your propshaft is on backwards.

[mrdoiron]

not sure if it matters but your propshaft is on backwards.
You know I wondered that, and not sure if it does matter either, but for sure will get them to reverse it when I take it back...

I check on the other suggestions - thanks

[mrdoiron]

It did drive fine after initial seals were put it... but they cracked it open again when they put the new prop shaft in, so a little hard to totally isolate DOE syle ...

Is there a chance the prop shaft in wrong can be a contributor ? Tomorrow I'll see if I can adjust the throttle, and check heat oof drums after a ride...

thanks for the continued triage help...

mike

[mrdoiron]

I would block the front wheels and jack up one rear wheel. With the transfer case in neutral what happens when you try to rotate the one wheel off the ground by hand?? It should turn freely.

the left rear will rotate forward , but with resistance, and the rear far more resistance...

[mrdoiron]

the left rear will rotate forward , but with resistance, and the rear far more resistance...

I proceeded to remove the drum (new last year as well as shoes), I think the shoe may have been pressing on the drum a bit - not not sure how firm against it that it should be in normal state... so with the drum off I pumped the brake pedal, and the brake wheel cylinder will not go back enough now to get the drum back on - shouldn't this move freely in/out ? Any idea how to quickly have it release ?

I am heading back out to tinker - should likely pull out a manual however...

Here is a pic of the brake cylinder extended also

[artpeck]

If I am understanding your issue you over extended the piston in the brake cylinder. Assuming you didn't damage the seal you should be able to push it back in by loosening the bleed nipple and taking pressure out of the circuit. You will then have to bleed the brakes most likely. When you loosen it make sure you put some clear plastic tubing on it and have the other end in a cup with clean brake fluid. Am sure you know this but if not it will percent air from being sucked into the lines if there is any negative pressure. Also DON'T take the bleed nipple put. A quarter turn or so should relieve the pressure.
Hope that helps. Sorry if it was a tangent.

[Sputnicker]

Try opening the bleeder valve to see if that relieves hydraulic pressure and allows the shoes to return. Sometimes when the flexible hoses fail, they act like check valves and don't allow fluid to flow back to the master cylinder. I've also seen master cylinder failures and brake cylinder failures where the pistons get stuck in the bores - usually due to swollen seals. If the vehicle has been sitting a while, it could also be corrosion in the cylinder(s). If it's in the master, you will likely have pressure in all 4 wheel cylinders (until you open a bleeder and relieve the pressure). If it's the rear hose, you will likely have pressure in both rears. Also, make sure the adjuster is backed off.

[Sputnicker]

I took another look at the picture and don't see the upper return spring on the shoes.

[artpeck]

On your brakes sticking I also had to deal with this. Mine is an S3 but assuming the procedure is similar and surely the principle is. The green book details a specific procedure for adjusting the rear brake shoe clearance using the cam lobe adjuster and having another person pressing the brake pedal. At first I ignored this as I didn't have another warm body handy. After retracing the rear brake procedure I realized why it was different than the front which I am sure is obvious to everyone else but took me a moment to understand. You always want the rear brakes to engage before the front to avoid the rear end of the truck becoming a pendulum. Hence setting the rear brake shoe clearance tighter than the front. Worth paying attention to so the specifics of the procedure outlined in the GB are important. Apologize again if i have stated the obvious

[mrdoiron]

On your brakes sticking I also had to deal with this. Mine is an S3 but assuming the procedure is similar and surely the principle is. The green book details a specific procedure for adjusting the rear brake shoe clearance using the cam lobe adjuster and having another person pressing the brake pedal. At first I ignored this as I didn't have another warm body handy. After retracing the rear brake procedure I realized why it was different than the front which I am sure is obvious to everyone else but took me a moment to understand. You always want the rear brakes to engage before the front to avoid the rear end of the truck becoming a pendulum. Hence setting the rear brake shoe clearance tighter than the front. Worth paying attention to so the specifics of the procedure outlined in the GB are important. Apologize again if i have stated the obvious
I loosened the bleeder to see if that would relieve pressure for the cylinder and allow the shoe to close enough to get the drum back on - no luck, the cylinder seems frozen... not sure of what else to do.

Also not sure this has anything to to with the power issue really - potentially created a new issue who knows.

mike

[mrdoiron]

I took another look at the picture and don't see the upper return spring on the shoes.
there is a spring on the bottom, but none on the top shown in the picture... looks like it wasn't put back when I had the shoes put on. Still not sure how to relieve the cylinder to get the drum back on....

[mrdoiron]

there is a spring on the bottom, but none on the top shown in the picture... looks like it wasn't put back when I had the shoes put on. Still not sure how to relieve the cylinder to get the drum back on....
So the right side of the cylinder will not go back in , left side seems to move in out ok... (pic).
I then took the shoe off and popped the drum and wheel back on to see if the power issue was related to this, and it is not. Same lack of power. So much so, I can't even get enough rev/power to reverse out on a steep incline without getting a good run up first... so still stumped.

The brake cylinder issue could be caused by to having jump on the brake the other day when a car back out in front of me in a lot - so seems an unfortunate coincidence...and a new problem to solve. Suppose this needs a new cylinder as I can't figure out what is happening here...

mike

[mongoswede]

The things that come to mind:

Burned points if you are still running points

Bad tank of fuel



Did the shop have to set the preload on anything in the transmission? If so it might be set
too tight.

Tire pressure low

Transmisssion oil level low

[jac04]

Transmisssion oil level low
I was reading this thead and wondering if they forgot to re-fill the transmission or x-fer case.

Mike - Have you checked the oil levels?

[mrdoiron]

The things that come to mind:

Burned points if you are still running points

Bad tank of fuel



Did the shop have to set the preload on anything in the transmission? If so it might be set
too tight.

Tire pressure low

Transmisssion oil level low

Thanks - appreciate the help...

I'll drop off the truck Mon-Tues at the Trans shop I used...hate to bring it there, but since they know what they did, likely best to bring it there for now... and can answer question on preload, check trans fluid level etc.

Tire pressure is fine, and fuel is not old as was recently filled.

Points will need to be checked - would there be something more obvious to look for if caused by points ?

m

[mrdoiron]

I was reading this thead and wondering if they forgot to re-fill the transmission or x-fer case.

Mike - Have you checked the oil levels?
I hadn't actually as that was one of the things I asked them to verify - but suppose at this point anything is possible - since I need to remove plugs etc, I'll likely just wait til I drop it off... thanks Jeff.

[jimrr]

you have to peg the gas pedal then go to the carb. and see if it is all the way ''floored'' at the carburator.
I think everything got covered here, if you were dragging a brake you should smell it, and if it was a front brake it'd pull you left or right.
e brake, gas pedal throw, and points in that order, i think you'll figure it out tho one post here mentions preload on the lay or carrier shaft in which instance you will get a hot case on that end after about ..........25 miles? ...... well, someone mabey 'swapped' gas with you?,,, or stuffed a rag in your air cleaner?? what's left?

[jac04]

... since I need to remove plugs etc, I'll likely just wait til I drop it off...
I would check it beforehand. Asking the trans shop to check it is a little like asking the fox to guard the hen house IMO.

[mrdoiron]

I would check it beforehand. Asking the trans shop to check it is a little like asking the fox to guard the hen house IMO.

good point...

thanks for the help folks, I fly out in the morning but back Monday afternoon for my investigation - I'm sure we'll get it.

I also will check to see in full throw with pedal down - coming back to LaneRover and Gale's points, and now Jmrrr - I better double check.

appreciated, mike

[mrdoiron]

good point...

thanks for the help folks, I fly out in the morning but back Monday afternoon for my investigation - I'm sure we'll get it.

I also will check to see in full throw with pedal down - coming back to LaneRover and Gale's points, and now Jmrrr - I better double check.

appreciated, mike

The pedal is fully extending the throttle at the carb... so I can check that off.

One other thing I noticed, is the exhaust is also much thicker and pronounced than ever before - would that indicate something (other than perhaps they used different oils than before) ??

[mongoswede]

The pedal is fully extending the throttle at the carb... so I can check that off.

One other thing I noticed, is the exhaust is also much thicker and pronounced than ever before - would that indicate something (other than perhaps they used different oils than before) ??

What do you mean by thicker? If you are seeing smoke here is the key:

Blue = burning oil
Black = mixture is too rich
Thick white and sweet smelling = burning coolant (head gasket, cracked head, cracked block etc)

A new set of points can really transform the power output especially if its been a while. Used to have a saab that needed them every 3000 miles or so for some reason...they were cheap and easy to do but made a big difference.

[mrdoiron]

What do you mean by thicker? If you are seeing smoke here is the key:

Blue = burning oil
Black = mixture is too rich
Thick white and sweet smelling = burning coolant (head gasket, cracked head, cracked block etc)

A new set of points can really transform the power output especially if its been a while. Used to have a saab that needed them every 3000 miles or so for some reason...they were cheap and easy to do but made a big difference.

It appears actually thicker white with black mixed... I hadn't noticed smell to be sweet, but definitely a more notable smell.

With respect to the power, it seems to quickly die off when a load is applied - for example, revs fine when standing still, then as you try to pull away on an sort of incline at all, and it dies quickly almost to a stall. If the road is level this effect if less, but will never come close to reaching full speed it had in each gear... with 4th gear the worse in terms of having any pull or top end...

thx

[jimrr]

This thing sounds like it just keeps getting worse!!!, look inside the valve cover after engine is warm, see if you have white frothy stuff, do the same with the dip stick then i'd say run it down to an independent and get this diagnosed before something big screws up.

[mongoswede]

Sounds like the engine has some issues. Look for the chocolate milkshake oil and do a compression test on all four cylinders.

[mrdoiron]

Sounds like the engine has some issues. Look for the chocolate milkshake oil and do a compression test on all four cylinders.
I didn't get a chance to look inside the valve cover, but get this..
I just found the intake elbow to carb (from air filter) was also not secure at the carb, but rather sitting on top of the carb with c-clamp tight to elbow, but elbow actually resting on top of carb rather than securely tight over it. As it was sitting flush, I hadn't noticed it not actually clamped on to the top of the barb - not sure if alone can cause this behavior, or if it perhaps contributed to creating another problem. I had to run to the airport so didn't get a chance to ride it yet however.

Any thoughts on what specific behaviors/problems this would be causes by not having an air tight seal between the air cleaner elbow and the carburettor intake.

I can't wait to talk to that trans shop... I think my first question to them might be something like "Have you ever picked up your teeth with broken fingers" ?

m

[mongoswede]

I didn't get a chance to look inside the valve cover, but get this..
I just found the intake elbow to carb (from air filter) was also not secure at the carb, but rather sitting on top of the carb with c-clamp tight to elbow, but elbow actually resting on top of carb rather than securely tight over it. As it was sitting flush, I hadn't noticed it not actually clamped on to the top of the barb - not sure if alone can cause this behavior, or if it perhaps contributed to creating another problem. I had to run to the airport so didn't get a chance to ride it yet however.

Any thoughts on what specific behaviors/problems this would be causes by not having an air tight seal between the air cleaner elbow and the carburettor intake.

I can't wait to talk to that trans shop... I think my first question to them might be something like "Have you ever picked up your teeth with broken fingers" ?

m




If the intake boot is off the only issue you would have is the engine will breathe unfiltered air. I'd wonder if the boot slipped off on its own or if someone had it off and put it back on incorrectly. If the transmission shop had it off id wonder why.

[Apis Mellifera]

Make sure the choke isn't stuck on.

Pull the plugs and post a close picture of them. This is sounding more like a mixture/ignition problem now. In the meantime do the usuals like check the timing and point gap.

[mrdoiron]

Make sure the choke isn't stuck on.

Pull the plugs and post a close picture of them. This is sounding more like a mixture/ignition problem now. In the meantime do the usuals like check the timing and point gap.
Thanks, will check that as well when I get home late tomorrow. Thanks again for the help.

mike

[mrdoiron]

Make sure the choke isn't stuck on.

Pull the plugs and post a close picture of them. This is sounding more like a mixture/ignition problem now. In the meantime do the usuals like check the timing and point gap.

Definitely seems like a load from the dark exhaust...so agree mixture related - and for sure it "feels like the choke is on" from a behavior standpoint, but it is not pulled out on dash, and at the carb is as far back as it goes - could the choke mechanism inside the carb be somehow fault/stuck ? any experience there ?

Dropping off to have the Trans elements checked now...
I also have a new Distributor and points if needed.

m

[Apis Mellifera]

What carb?

[mrdoiron]

What carb?
weber

[SafeAirOne]

Have you checked to make sure the intake isn't obstructed? Sometimes the flexible air intake hose delaminates on the inside, blocking airflow to the engine above idle.

[mrdoiron]

Have you checked to make sure the intake isn't obstructed? Sometimes the flexible air intake hose delaminates on the inside, blocking airflow to the engine above idle.

I hadn't noticed anything obvious.
I dropped it to the Transmission shop to have then verify their work - and reverse the shaft 180 while at it, I'll post any findings ...

m

[mrdoiron]

weber

Is there a chance that the float is stuck on, the choke is not on, but wonder is internally that can happen, and if it is an easy fix of not

thx

[mongoswede]

I just remembered something else.....my first car/truck was a 1977 International Scout II that I got from a neighbor for $700. Anyways I drove it for a couple of years until the rust got the better of it. The relevant part is that for a long time if I had the hubs locked in and the 4wd engaged in high range (it was an automatic with hi/low 4wd) the truck didn't want to go any faster than about 25 or 30 mph. One day while driving home in the snow I had to use 4wd to get back up the mountain roads that we lived on. I was chugging along at 25 mph in high range feeling oh so restricted when there was a loud bang. After that the high range 4wd worked great and the truck would go as fast as you wanted to go in 4wd...and I know the 4wd was still working. Something was bound up and I am not sure what. For all I know there was years of driving train binding going on and something finally popped. I never figured it out but assumed that something was tight and luckily broke free...instead of just breaking.

[mrdoiron]

I just remembered something else.....my first car/truck was a 1977 International Scout II that I got from a neighbor for $700. Anyways I drove it for a couple of years until the rust got the better of it. The relevant part is that for a long time if I had the hubs locked in and the 4wd engaged in high range (it was an automatic with hi/low 4wd) the truck didn't want to go any faster than about 25 or 30 mph. One day while driving home in the snow I had to use 4wd to get back up the mountain roads that we lived on. I was chugging along at 25 mph in high range feeling oh so restricted when there was a loud bang. After that the high range 4wd worked great and the truck would go as fast as you wanted to go in 4wd...and I know the 4wd was still working. Something was bound up and I am not sure what. For all I know there was years of driving train binding going on and something finally popped. I never figured it out but assumed that something was tight and luckily broke free...instead of just breaking.

Interesting angle, I wouldn't have thought to look in that direction - except for having the rear drive shaft flipped 180as they installed it reverse - but didn't really assume that to be a contributor to restricted power.

thanks -

[mrdoiron]

Make sure the choke isn't stuck on.

Pull the plugs and post a close picture of them. This is sounding more like a mixture/ignition problem now. In the meantime do the usuals like check the timing and point gap.
Forgot to post what the culprit was... appears the ding dongs at the trans shop got the new points on wrong, and likely caused a backfire or sorts blowing out between #2 and 3 :

[albersj51]

Fixed at their expense, i hope

[Apis Mellifera]

Forgot to post what the culprit was... appears the ding dongs at the trans shop got the new points on wrong, and likely caused a backfire or sorts blowing out between #2 and 3 :

I don't know if I would agree that a backfire could blow the HG. It's designed to contain combustion, whether it happens as scheduled or not. Furthermore, that looks like it was blown for a long while. It takes more than a few miles to erode that much gasket material. The HG on my MGA blew probably before or shortly after I got it 20-some years ago. I rebuilt it last year and discovered the problem. The burned antifreeze muck actually resealed it and although it was underpowered, it never smoked or lost antifreeze during those decades. Is it possible something similar happened to you? Perhaps on the test drive after the shop did the gearbox service, a worker gave your Landy the beans and dislodged a similar sealing chunk and made the blown HG more apparent?

I've just never seen one go from presumably OK to that bad in such a short period. The good news is, unless the head and/or block are flame cut, a new HG will sort it.

[SafeAirOne]

Put me on the "I doubt the transmission shop had much to do with this" list.

Also, put me on the "wouldn't have a transmission shop mess with my points" list. :D

[mrdoiron]

Put me on the "I doubt the transmission shop had much to do with this" list.

Also, put me on the "wouldn't have a transmission shop mess with my points" list. :D
I know, I know... I had my doubts about having them do anything other than reseal the trans, but since they were at it and I needed the rear shaft replaced they did that.. which they put on in reverse. So you get into that mode of how far down the rabbit hole do you go, and had them reverse that at their cost. And since they were working it I had new points set sitting on the front seat, and they ask if I needed that put on for me. So well into the rabbit hole I said ok, and they called and said they heard a very loud "bang" / backfire... then I went and got it - and then had power loss problem.

So could be coincidence - but they didn't charge me anything for the work they did, and I had North Texas Rovers fix it.

lesson #78 learned...

mike