No 3rd or 4th gear.....help!!! IT LIVES!!!

[knac1234]

:thumb-up:Hello all,

Was driving back home up the highway, and was turning right to go onto a residential street, shifting from 4th to 3rd to 2nd.

When I started picking up speed again, I tried to go into 3rd gear, and it would not let me! Same with 2nd to 4th gear! Tried pulling over, and could not select 3rd or 4th, with the transfer box in any gear or neutral! Made it home in 2nd with OD!!!

The only issue with the tranny was the occasional popping out of 2nd....I have a box of detent springs and balls I ordered last week that I was going to tackle tomorrow.

Any help diagnosing appreciated. Pictures or VERY detailed instructions needed....I know nothing about trannys, but am willing to give it a shot.

Need the car running....my Freelander died two days ago also and haven't been able to get into that with the rotten weather :mad:

Going to post this on other boards too!!

Cheers,
Julian

[SeriesShorty]

Check my post on this exact same issue from earlier this week. Lots of good diagnostic info, as well as links to synchro spring replacement procedures.

Good luck!

[Terrys]

My sympathies Julian. Not because of the series issues; they're fixable. Because of the Freebie; they're not. Is you Change Engine light on?

[knac1234]

Seriesshorty-thanks....missed that one. I am a bit nervous attempting any of that though. Looking for some pics.....there are a few in the Haynes manual.....hoping it will help. Were you successful?

Terry-not to take over the thread with my FL issues, but no the Change Engine light is not on. It went on for the first time ever about a month ago at about 50000 miles coming back from California. Needed a new intake manifold (I lucked out and found a genuine NOS one for $775 instead of $1300 :eek:). Drove it 1000 miles more....no issues. We had -20F weather this week, and my wife started it up and noticed oil from the oil filter area. She shut it down immediately (said less than a minute....no lights on dash). I checked the oil, and it was just over the LOW indicator. As I cannot move it, I have to (hopefully today if it doesn't snow again), lie in oil and snow on my driveway and remove that panel to look whats happened. Hoping maybe it was a loose filter (although I checked it two weeks ago) and the extreme cold that contributed. Have my 0W-40 synthetic and a new filter in hand....pray for me!!

If I can move the FL, which is blocking my garage, then I can take the roof rack of the Series and attempt to look at the tranny from above in my garage--freezing, but at least I won't get snowed on!!!!!

Keep any tips coming!!!!

Julian

[Terrys]

Not on topic, so I'll make it quick. That is precisely what happened to my wifes FL 2 years ago, also on a very cold day. It was a blown out cam plug, and frozen vent tube. Did it again immediately after they fixed it the first time, so we dumped the car for an 09 Forrester LLBean edition, and never looked back.

[SeriesShorty]

Julian, I haven't been able to get back to work on my truck cause we keep getting snow dumped on us. Woke up to another 4" this morning. :mad: No garage. So it may be a while before I can back at it. I'm hopeful that mine is just some jammed up syncho clips.

Keep us posted on what you find in yours, especially if you get to yours before I can get to mine. :p

[knac1234]

Terry-Pulled the protective cover off, and sure enough the oil filter was covered. I used an inspection light and thoroughly looked over the whole engine (and vehicle)....even pulled off the air filter cover. No signs of any pipes or anything else burst....looks like just a filter leak (had one before with a minor drip....of course only on this car, never on any other I have owned!). Anyway, changed the oil, left the cover off, and took it for a 15 mile drive stopping every few miles to check the filter. Clean, drives good, sounds good, no dummy lights, temp perfect....looks like I've lucked out :cool:. Wife will take it to work tomorrow for a 30 mile round trip.

Serieshorty-I sympathize with the snow and no garage. I have a garage, but it is packed with the MGs and the Hillman, so it is tight (and cold anyway). If the rack were to come off, I could get the Series in.

Anyway....after possible success with the FLander, I started on the Series as the weather was tolerable and it hadn't started snowing. Started by pulling the floors and tranny tunnel.....first time ever doing that.....thought it was a 10 minute job......took me 2 hours due to rusty screws, etc!!!!! :sly: Trashed them....will get some stainless to replace them with. Anyway, just as I finally got the floor out....it started to snow.....will report more as I know more!! I may post pictures as I probably will have no clue what I am looking at!!

Cheers,
Julian

[knac1234]

Hello all,

Some pics for you to see.....am looking for some insight for the next step:thumb-up:

1. http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m411/knac1234/ROVER%20PARTS/100_4187.jpg

Found this retaining screw just sitting in the hole....will not screw in. What does it do and what problem will that contribute to?

2.http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m411/knac1234/ROVER%20PARTS/100_4186.jpg
I see the ball at the bottom of the shift lever. Does that look normal, or do I need a new lever (I have read about a nylon ball at the end that disintegrates, but can't find a pic of a new one)? All along, my shift lever has felt loose.....maybe that is why....or that retaining screw noted above?

I tried operating the clutch by hand and visually watched this ball go into the fork for 1/2 gears and it worked and selected them fine. I also did the same, but with the ball in the fork for 3/4 gears....it will not select either gear. Possibly something is jammed?

To access where the detent springs/balls go and to look for something jamming the selector, do I simply remove the two bolts seen in the pic above for the shift lever plate and the two smaller bolts (one seen in the pic) at the angled part of the shift lever plate?

3. http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m411/knac1234/ROVER%20PARTS/100_4188.jpg
Noticed two unused electrical terminals as seen in the pic. I am guessing this activates the reverse lights (which do work) as this is the side reverse is on. Am I right or is this something that should be hooked up somehow?

Much appreciated.....I shall soldier on after hearing some ideas as am worried about taking the plate off mentionned above!!

Cheers,
Julian

[LR Max]

For 1. The retaining screw prevents the shifter from spinning around. Seriously, try shifting into reverse right now. You'll be in for a dismal surprise.

That is all I can do for you right now. God speed.

[Terrys]

Is today the 6th already? jeez the time is flying.
Julian, as Max says, you've gotta have that bolt screwed in, or you'll have one heck of a time trying to shift. See the slot in th ball of the lever? that bolt goes into that slot.
The ball at the END of the shift lever doesn't look as bad as some I've seen, and I don't think that's the cause of your proble. There are several different types of ends on shift levers that I know of, the best being like the 2A which is a large nylon ring.
What switches your reverse lights on if there were no wires attached to the Rube Goldberg original switch?
The detent balls and springs are further back. Look for an L shaped bracket, bolted down from the top, with the Ell going down the side of the cover (about 3/4"x3/4") there will be one on each side, and the 1/2 detent in line with the 2 outside ones, under a brass cap in the center of the gearbox, and, not coincidently, located directly over the 1/2 selector rod.
If you're able to see the shifter go all the way into the 3/4 selector, not at all still slightly in the 1/2, then you're issue is probably the same as the other thread currently in progress (was it siii88?)

[Apis Mellifera]

As others have said, the first picture is of a wallowed out shift lever alignment screw. Originally it was a slotted 1/4-28 screw with a smaller diameter tip that slotted into the shift lever. It keep the lever from rotating in the larger ball and socket pivot. Is it possible that the lever is rotating into what looks like 3 and 4th rather than actually moving the 3/4 shift rod? You can tap the wallowed out hole the next size up and modify the bolt tip to engage the slot.

The reverse switch is original and not hooked up..

The smaller ball looks exactly like the one on my SIII. I've never seen one with nylon bits. Mine has a groove for what I assume is an o-ring. Maybe mine's missing the nylon ring/cup/ball as well.

To look inside, you'll need to remove the top of the gearbox.


Remove the four shift turret bolts (1/2 wrench).
Remove the two bolts (7/16 wrench) securing the shift rod seals on the front. (under the muck in your 2nd picture)
Remove the detents (7/16 wrench, 1/2 socket)
Remove the two nuts (~9/16 wrench) on either side of the top cover
Remove the two bolt on the rear of the top cover (1/2 wrench)
Pry off top

I think that's it - it's been a while.



PS: read this:
http://www.4wdonline.com/LandRover/Series/Mech/SynchroClips.html

[Apis Mellifera]

Detents:

[knac1234]

Thanks for the replies.....

-Will fix that retainer bolt that prevents the shift lever from moving....I don't think it has anything to do with selecting 3/4 though Apis as I observed the ball at the end of the shift lever going into the fork for 3/4 while holding down the clutch with my hand.

-Terry....glad to hear that the lever ball looks ok instead of me wasting $ just buying another one. I forgot to mention that, when I engaged 1st gear (or 2nd), I noticed that I was able to move the ball at the bottom of the lever diagonally into the fork for 3/4 while 1/2 was still engaged.....does that imply the ball is worn enough to warrant a new lever (ie. should the ball be a bit bigger to prevent that ability and hence it is worn down)??

-Reverse lights....well, when I bought the truck I had my wife watch all lamps as I operated the switches from inside, including reverse. Perhaps there is something aftermarket in there.....I will investigate that when the shifting problem is over too.

-Apis....great pic on where the detents are....now I feel more comfortable digging into that. Opened my package of springs and balls....the detent seals are on B/O from RN....hopefully mine are useable until more are available. As far as those synchro clips....gulp.....


Will report back when the weather is more tolerable outside :D

Julian

[SafeAirOne]

Some pics just to give you an idea of what you'll be looking at once the cover is removed (ignore the As and Bs--They were from another post). NOTE: In the "B" parts of the lower pic, the springs that go outboard of the ball bearings to hold the balls against the shifter rods are not there.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4691967059_b6340c2593_z.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/4692599950_a6990ab987_z.jpg

[ignotus]

Hi,
From looking at you photos, I'd say that your ball on the end of the shift lever needs to be larger. They came at different times with a nylon cup over them that would break and fall out leaving a too small ball. Or in the series 3 case as previously stated an o-ring around the center of the ball.
What happens it the shifter allows the reduced size ball to move lateraly before the previously selected gear is moved to the detent, so it is not able to select another gear.
A properly fitting ball can't move lateraly until the ball lines up with the next gear selector and the detents are automaticaly aligned.
Others have nailed the loose setscrew issue.

gene

[knac1234]

Mark-those pictures are fantastic....very helpful for a rookie like me!

Gene-thanks....I don't think it will hurt to order another shifter as they are not that much, plus I can get a new set screw to fit the hole properly. I tend to agree with your analysis, again just because I was pretty easily able to move the shifter (and hence the ball in question) into the forks for 3rd/4th gear while 1st or 2nd was engaged by moving the shifter diagonally (easy to observe when looking at the mechanism identified in one of the pics I posted, pressing the clutch with one hand, and moving the shifter with my other hand).

Cheers,
Julian

[Apis Mellifera]

Is there a chance that because of your sloppy shifter ball, that when you're "shifted" out of 1 or 2, you're not all the way out? If the shaft is either a little toward 1 or 2 and the detent didn't center the shaft, that could lock out 3 and 4. Just brainstorming.

[knac1234]

Apis--Before giving up due to freezing conditions and snow yesterday after work, I got as far as removing the gear shift lever and starting to clean the crap off of the gearbox in preparation for removing the cover.

With the shifter removed, I was able to move the 1/2 shift fork with my finger in and out of gear. I could not do the same for the 3/4 shift fork. For the heck of it, before giving up for the day, I removed the plug that houses the 1/2 detent spring and ball....both were in there.

By Friday, I should have a new shift lever, all new detent springs and balls, synchro clips (6 so that I have backups), and a bunch of other bits related to those areas arriving in the mail. Weather should maybe hit 50 on Saturday, so that will be my next crack at it. I will know then whether I can pull this off, or whether to tow it to the shop to have someone else take care of it. I also ordered all new screws and fixings to reattach the floors and tunnel cover when ready....no more rusty junk there :))

Cheers,
Julian

[ignotus]

Julian,

If you think the 1/2 selector was centered in the detents and you could not move the 3/4 selector I think it may be possible that the syncro is bad on 3/4. Just make sure the detents for 3/4 are working first.
Good luck!

gene

[knac1234]

Hello all,

Weather was good today, so, after a few more hours of removing rusted bolts, I was able to remove the seat box to gain full access to the tranny.

Another hour or so, and I cleaned up the top portion pretty well in order to take the cover off.

So, here is my dumb question of the day:

How do I get the top cover off (referring to the pics Mark posted in this thread)?

Referring to PIC 2-I have removed the 2 bolts of course that hold the gear lever and the two nuts you can see where studs are poking out only. Also removed the O/D gear lever assembly whose bracket was mounted to the top case. Do I need to remove those two slotted screws also?

Referring to PIC 1-Notice the bolt that is unscrewed but not removed (hits the bolt head of one of the bolts on the smaller cover).....does it need to come out too?

Thanks....never done this before, but am equipped with the proper parts and those long pliers!

Julian













http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m411/knac1234/100_4190.jpghttp://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m411/knac1234/100_4189.jpg

[Terrys]

Referring to PIC 1-Notice the bolt that is unscrewed but not removed (hits the bolt head of one of the bolts on the smaller cover).....does it need to come out too?














http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m411/knac1234/100_4190.jpghttp://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m411/knac1234/100_4189.jpg
You're all set Julian. That one is for the reverse stop, and doesn't need to be undone. The cover is on dowl pins, and because there is also a vertical joint, it may be difficult to break loose. Just tap with a small ball peen hammer, upward. It will come.

[knac1234]

Terry...thanks....will post pics at the end of the day of what I find!

On another note, I was catching up on some reading on this BBS and came across your barn thread. I am SO sorry. I cannot imagine how you feel about the damage to those unique vehicles. I suppose the only thing that is positive is that you or your family was not physically standing in there when it collapsed.

Cheers,
Julian

[Terrys]

Thanks Julian. I fell as badly for the guy who owned the barn as I do for loosing the cars. Just goes to show how bad this winter has been in this area. The Mini and Landy Rover are repairable, but the TD is a bit too badly damaged.

[knac1234]

Hello all,

Before letting you know about my progress, a question again!

The gear selector rods.....should I put grease into the "cups" where the ball at the end of the shift lever sits???? I cleaned them all up and oiled the inner forks, but those cups were nasty, and now are clean, and am thinking grease is needed?

So, here was my Sunday:

After taking some pics, looking at the mechanism, and taking a deep breath, I removed the gear selector forks from the tranny (some have called it a Chinese puzzle....hence my worry!).

I could then easily see the 3rd/4th synchro, and rotated it.....clip 1 OK, clip 2 OK, clip 3.....just a piece of metal that I quickly removed. Clearly it was jamming the mechanism as I could then select 3rd and 4th with my finger no problem :D

Ran into town and bought the recommended long 90 deg angled pliers and set off to replace the clip. Two hours later, after mangling two clips (and my fingers and knuckles), miraculously---and I have no idea how to describe it----I got the clip in. Clip looks properly installed, and I am still able to select 3rd and 4th gear :D

Drained the tranny oil to find the other half of the broken clip (which I did), and reassembled the tranny with all new detent balls, springs, and seals while I was in there.

So it APPEARS I will be successful, as the forks are back in and I can select all gears!

More to come as I need to install a new gearshift lever and of course put everything back together. To finish it off will be the proper spring and cup on the yellow knob lever that I ordered at the same time to replace the DPOs rigged spring and washer setup (and new screws and stainless nuts, bolts, and washers for the floors and seat box).

CHEERS,
Julian

[Terrys]

OUTSTANDING!

[albersj51]

Nice work, Julian! Also, thanks for following up. Too often (me included) we fix it and forget to follow up, which doesn't help the next person when trouble shooting and they do a search later on

[SeriesShorty]

Awesome!!! I'm glad yours went well and I can't wait to get started on mine.

[knac1234]

I am pretty confident it is going to work....will post when the whole thing is back together! Either way I owe all of you a big thanks for saving me some $$ fixing it.

Series shorty--good luck with yours, but get ready for busted knuckles and some pain----have plenty of beer on hand!

Any comments on the grease in the selector cups where the gear lever ball sits??

Cheers,
Julian

[Terrys]

yeah, grease it up. You don't have to go nuts, just enough to coat the whole area.

[Apis Mellifera]

Nice!

Once the top cover is installed and tightened, make sure the detent balls still move freely. I'd use copper grease (then again, I either copper grease or gasket sealer everything these days).

[kwd509]

I am pretty confident it is going to work....

Bravo!!!......and from this distance, it didn't even look that hard.
An inspiration to those of us intimidated by gearboxes.

[SafeAirOne]

Nice job. I understand replacing those springs in-situ can be a real...challenge, let's say.

[knac1234]

Quick note as most of it is back together......

Rover works GREAT :thumb-up:! New shifter, all new springs and detent balls, synchro clip, seals, and a few other bits. It shifts smoother than it ever has (likely due to the new gear shift lever), and 3rd and 4th are there no problem. Still pops out of second on deceleration (did that for the past 10 years on the old owner), but I can live with that. Even the 4wd knob pops up properly thanks to the proper seating cup and spring from RN!

What a great BBS.....I would never have attempted anything tranny-related without your help! Oh, and Mark...."challenge" is right....next time I have to replace those springs I don't anticipate it being any easier....at least getting to the synchros will be.

Cheers,
Julian