engine upgrades

[Lord Icon]

Any body change out the carb (z,sol, web) and upgrade to a throttle body injection system? I am commissioning a system and if i don't have to re invent the wheel it will be cheaper....
This is a stepping stone for me till I get the time and cash and energy to do the 200di swap out.
:thumb-up:

[mongoswede]

Any body change out the carb (z,sol, web) and upgrade to a throttle body injection system? I am commissioning a system and if i don't have to re invent the wheel it will be cheaper....
This is a stepping stone for me till I get the time and cash and energy to do the 200di swap out.
:thumb-up:

Have not heard of anyone doing it but there is no reason it cannot be done. Why bother with an antiquated TBI system when you could do a little manifold work and go to a modern multipoint efi. Systems like Mega-squirt and others are fairly easy to work with and apply to any engine.

to limit expenses and the need for making a wiring harness you could look for Saab 900's in the junkyard from year 1986 through 1993 and pull out the fuel injection wiring harness. These harnesses come out of the car reasonably easily and only require a few outside connections like power, ground, etc. They have 4 fuel injector connectors and other sensor connectors that could be used and programmed into a megasquirt computer. There is a guy on the Saab forum that makes an adaptor which allows you to plug the megasquirt computer into the Saab harness. Would probably lay into a rover engine bay nicely and you could mount the computer inside out of the elements (or as away from the elements as you can get in a rover).

[I Leak Oil]

I believe LRMax commissioned a FI system for his, or atleast attempted to. Might pick his brain....

[Eric W S]

There's a throttle body conversion on Discoweb or GnR. Search.

Why waste the money if your are going to swap to a 200di? That makes no sense.

[mongoswede]

There's a throttle body conversion on Discoweb or GnR. Search.

Why waste the money if your are going to swap to a 200di? That makes no sense.


Agreed...didn't even register the 200TDI swap until now.

[Lord Icon]

er, tbi upgrade 300-500$ no engine removal......
200di $2900 plus shipping and many hours under and in my rover engine bay.
I figure I did this with my Unimog and patented it and made a few quid.
the 200di would just cost me money as someone else has done all the brain work...
Besides, the MRS. wants to know why I just can't improve this engine that works " fine" the argument for better fuel economy just is wasted as the rover is not used that often..

[yorker]

http://gunsandrovers.yuku.com/topic/3365

[msggunny]

What about this:

http://www.holley.com/550-200.asp

With this manifold:

http://www.piercemanifolds.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=99009.815PM

and a bit of machine work for an adaptor?

[solihull109]

er, tbi upgrade 300-500$ no engine removal......
200di $2900 plus shipping and many hours under and in my rover engine bay.
I figure I did this with my Unimog and patented it and made a few quid.
the 200di would just cost me money as someone else has done all the brain work...
Besides, the MRS. wants to know why I just can't improve this engine that works " fine" the argument for better fuel economy just is wasted as the rover is not used that often..


You're thought process makes zero sense here. If you really think for a moment that a 70 something horsepower engine is going to be more efficient moving the weight of a series truck you're kidding yourself. If you are looking at gaining more *mpg's* than you need to consider the alternative, which would be a diesel, which also does not mean a Rover diesel either. These trucks are tractors folks, not a Prius.

If you want to improve the 2.25 that's in there now, keep it well tuned and maintained.

[mongoswede]

You're thought process makes zero sense here. If you really think for a moment that a 70 something horsepower engine is going to be more efficient moving the weight of a series truck you're kidding yourself. If you are looking at gaining more *mpg's* than you need to consider the alternative, which would be a diesel, which also does not mean a Rover diesel either. These trucks are tractors folks, not a Prius.

If you want to improve the 2.25 that's in there now, keep it well tuned and maintained.

true...but there are certain things that a modern EFI system give you beyond the possibility for improved efficiency. The modern DIY systems are infinitely tuneable for your application and you can plug a lap top in and see whats going on. You can optimize the fuel delivery for the engine and the driving conditions. While its doubtful that you will see a fantastic increase in mpg you will likely find the engine runs better in a wider variety of conditions. However, the other side of this project is that it would be a good idea to design and build a different intake manifold. The stock rover manifolds are short and fat which tends to optimize top end hp while long skinny runners tend to enhance low end torque. So an efi system and a properly designed intake manifold mated with a properly flowing exhaust manifold and exhaust could be a big difference in the performance. On top of that you could reduce the flywheel weight and improve reving speed.

In the end you will be limited because the cylinder head design is just poor to begin with.

[Eric W S]

er, tbi upgrade 300-500$ no engine removal......
200di $2900 plus shipping and many hours under and in my rover engine bay.
I figure I did this with my Unimog and patented it and made a few quid.
the 200di would just cost me money as someone else has done all the brain work...
Besides, the MRS. wants to know why I just can't improve this engine that works " fine" the argument for better fuel economy just is wasted as the rover is not used that often..

Get a rebuilt Solex and like others said keep the engine in tune and you'll get the most bang for your buck performance wise.

Why even bother with the 200di swap? Gutless enough with a turbo and without not much better than a well kept 2.25 petrol.

[Terrys]

Why even bother with the 200di swap? Gutless enough with a turbo
Have you ever driven a truck with a 200Tdi? Hardly what I would call gutless.

[east high]

What about this:

http://www.holley.com/550-200.asp

With this manifold:

http://www.piercemanifolds.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=99009.815PM

and a bit of machine work for an adaptor?

Gah! Now I have yet another thing to daydream about. Thanks, msgunny :P

BTW, what's different/better about that manifold compared to stock?

[gudjeon]

That Holley TBI is one sweet piece of kit. :thumb-up: Hmmmmm. If/when I get a tax return...:D

[albersj51]

Wow! $1800!?! Im all for turning the rover into EFI, but at that price ill take my carb and like it.

[xsbowes]

er, tbi upgrade 300-500$ no engine removal......
..


little higher with the holley:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-550-200

$1800 for the 550
$190 for the manifold

[gudjeon]

I can always, and have done numerous times, fixed my carb.:thumb-up:

[mongoswede]

little higher with the holley:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-550-200

$1800 for the 550
$190 for the manifold

kit:
EGR No
Injection Style Throttle body
Metering Style Speed density
Intake Manifold Included No
Fuel Rails Included No
Throttle Body Included Yes
Throttle Body Mounting Flange OEM 2-barrel
Venturi Quantity 2
Airflow Rate (cfm) 670 cfm
Throttle Body Material Cast aluminum
Throttle Body Finish Natural
Injectors Included Yes
Calibration Module Included Yes
ECM Included Yes
Wiring Harness Included Yes
Oxygen Sensor Included Yes
Fuel Pump Included Yes

depending on the kit you may or not need the pieces below.

Fuel Pressure Regulator Included No
Distributor Included No
MAP Sensor Included No
IAT Sensor Included No
TPS Sensor Included No
IAC Motor Included No
Quantity Sold as a kit.
Notes Designed for engines up to 275 horsepower.

[east high]

I looked the kit over and it looks like you will still need a fuel pump, and some other sensors. I didn't see whether it was a MAP system or based on airflow but those additional sensors will add some more cost to the kit. Not sure what sort of fuel pressure it requires but its likely it will need a high pressure fuel pump...so some more cost there. Things to keep in mind.

According to Holley, it comes with everything you need for installation except for a manifold and return fuel line.

http://www.holley.com/550-200.asp

[I Leak Oil]

And after all this it's going to get 5hp more and 2 mpg better or what? The 2.25 is what it is....you can't polish a terd.

[msggunny]

little higher with the holley:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-550-200

$1800 for the 550
$190 for the manifold

Forgot $$$(?) for the adaptor to make it fit to the manifold.

[LR Max]

$1800? HA. You can build your own for a fraction of that...because I did.

For mods, I've got a rover head shaved to Kingdom Come, .030 over pistons, ACR camshaft and a Rochester carb.

Once the shop is done removing the JAKE brake valve adjustment, I'll let you know.

[Eric W S]

Have you ever driven a truck with a 200Tdi? Hardly what I would call gutless.


I have. Not too impressed with the motor given it's cost to performance ratio. I want to drive one of Timm Cooper's creations. That's the way to go for motor replacement IMO. Quick jacking around with crap from LR and fix the problems...

[solihull109]

I would like to thank some of you guys. It's been long hours for several months. I needed a good chuckle.

I'm actually amazed that some of you would consider spending the money on a foolish mod like this when most of you are too cheap to just keep the truck tuned up and in good running order in the first place.


Oh, EWS, you're right on the money. If you're going to do it, might as well go big.

[xsbowes]

....you can't polish a terd.


According to Mythbusters, you can!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI

[I Leak Oil]

According to Mythbusters, you can!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI

Ok I guess the terd polishing experts have it all over me on that one...it's still just a terd.....

[mongoswede]

I would like to thank some of you guys. It's been long hours for several months. I needed a good chuckle.

I'm actually amazed that some of you would consider spending the money on a foolish mod like this when most of you are too cheap to just keep the truck tuned up and in good running order in the first place.


Oh, EWS, you're right on the money. If you're going to do it, might as well go big.


I have my own engine selected for the next rover. but I didn't want to muddle the already turbulent thread. :D

[Eric W S]

I have my own engine selected for the next rover. but I didn't want to muddle the already turbulent thread. :D


Hopefully your mantra is WWTCD? What would Timm Cooper Do?

:thumb-up:

EwS

[I Leak Oil]

It's probably a Saab 4 banger.

[Eric W S]

I would like to thank some of you guys. It's been long hours for several months. I needed a good chuckle.

I'm actually amazed that some of you would consider spending the money on a foolish mod like this when most of you are too cheap to just keep the truck tuned up and in good running order in the first place.


Oh, EWS, you're right on the money. If you're going to do it, might as well go big.

That there is the truth. It's easier to whine and complain than to just fix the problems. :rolleyes:

The 200tdi is just over paying for ease of installation.

[SalemRover]

Late to thread. having driven a turner 2.25 with a variety of carbs and a decent running 2.5 NAD now (which should give you a fair approximation on a 200di). The acceleration off the line is slightly less with the 2.5, slightly. Where the 2.5 wins big time is the extra torque in mid to high RPMs. You do not slow down on hills anywhere near as much as the 2.25, I do slow down on highway hills with the 2.5 but slowing down to 55~60 versus 45~50 makes those hills less white knuckle driving. I would not go back to the 2.25 now that I have a nice 2.5. 25mpg is nice too. Unless I updated my brakes I do not want more engine than the 2.25.

[Eric W S]

http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6667601/editorials/easy-jeep-vw-tdi-diesel-swap/index.html

I know it's for a jeep, but someone did one in a 88.

It would move an 88 tweaked to 165hp...

EwS

[east high]

http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6667601/editorials/easy-jeep-vw-tdi-diesel-swap/index.html

I know it's for a jeep, but someone did one in a 88.

It would move an 88 tweaked to 165hp...

EwS

Just for the sake of conversation, could a series transmission hold up to this VW diesel? I've read the series transmission is the weak link in the drivetrain. Same with the 10 spine axles.

[Lord Icon]

See , this is going way too far. As the poor bastard that started this mishagoss, my intention was a stop gap measure till I had the $$$ for my nice 200di.
I have done the whole POWER thing. I sold my last rover off for a unimog due to the bigger badder mentality.
I am acutely aware of the rover's weak links. The 200di is mildly better than a well tuned 2.25 and just as slow. I'm ok with that. If I wanted something more I would get a tracked thing form Howe and Howe in Maine. I want some thing I can use for a lifetime... mine.
I have the webber carb in now primarily due to their ease of tuning. I was just thinking outside the box .
The other reason for the upgrade was for access to power steering .... just the pump.
As a user and offroad trainer of winching skills , this past weekend at the winter romp and the 5 hours of recovery on the "kickass trail" I have had all I can have of the electric winch.
The thought process of taking mechanical energy and converting it to electricity then back to mechanical at the winch and attaching it all with thin ( 1/2 inch) heating elements .. read wire, is killing me.
I want my milemarker hydrolic winch back.
In the field they have never failed me.... ever. Never gets hot, no strain on the wiring ( Hi Lucas, you smoky bastard) works all day no questions asked.
Say all you want about any brand of electric winch, they all fail for the same reason.... heat, mostly due to duty cycle.
Anybody read the info sheet that comes with the winch? Holy crap, the amp draw even on a light load is 3 digits. How about a max pull ? in snow? up hill? weak batt? 63 amp alt? little bit of corrosion on the wires or terminals?
I will probably keep the webber and just save my pennies for the 200di.
Cheers to the lot of you for all your suggestions and help..
Kris

[Terrys]

Just for the sake of conversation, could a series transmission hold up to this VW diesel? I've read the series transmission is the weak link in the drivetrain. Same with the 10 spine axles.
This is a highly debated topic. It's been my experience that if word liike 'hurst' 'muncy' 'quarter mile' etc are a major part of your automotive vocabulary, you need to adjust your driving habts downward a fair bit if you over power almost any part of a Land Rover drivetrain. I haven't ever found the need to uprate a series truck since they're just backroad plodders for me. I've never replaced a gearbox, or needed to rebuild one because of a failure I caused by pushing it. I have snapped a couple axle shafts in 35+ years, but that's really it. While concurrently owning very powerful cars at the same time as Landies, I change my shifting and 'foot' accordingly when I jump back in one of the series trucks. Many people claim synchros in LT77 and R380 gearboxes are weak, and begin to protest shifts early on. This isn't my experience. I cautioned my son years ago when I let him take my defender that he had to pretend there was an egg in between his hand and the gearshift lever. I fully engage the clutch before I put the ponies to it; no jolts, shocks or jerks, if you follow my thinking. The shock to the drivetrain is way less giving it the pedal when it's all coupled up, than having a lot of power on before it's coupled up. Within the limits of common sense upgraded engines, the torque is reasonably absorbed, but add the torsion of engaging the drivetrain with power 'on' is looking for an overhaul.

[fishguy]

http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6667601/editorials/easy-jeep-vw-tdi-diesel-swap/index.html

I know it's for a jeep, but someone did one in a 88.

It would move an 88 tweaked to 165hp...

EwS

Was that Rover/VW ever finished? I have never seen a final result...

[gudjeon]

That is how the old series LR lasted for so long as they are slightly underpowered and you have to use your brains and gearing to do what you want. If I wanted to drive with just the accelerator pedal, I would have kept the '73 F250 3/4t 4x4 with the 427.:thumb-up:

[yorker]

Just for the sake of conversation, could a series transmission hold up to this VW diesel? I've read the series transmission is the weak link in the drivetrain. Same with the 10 spine axles.

Sure it could, was it designed to? no.

As for winches- KevinNY had a Power steering converision on his 2.25, There isn't any reason why someone couldn't duplicate that and run a hydraulic winch instead. I don't know why you'd want to when there are such nice PTO winches out there though.

[Eric W S]

Was that Rover/VW ever finished? I have never seen a final result...

It was. It a mechanical diesel. Lived in Colorado before an untimely demise.

Can the series transmission take it? Not likely. But they have lived behind rover v-8's before.

[Lord Icon]

Well, I tuned the old girl today.....
The timing was off by 18 degrees. Bit of a power robber? The timing was originally done by me before the winter romp. Turns out the mark I was using was a spec of debris that reflected the timing light nicely. Looking closely I found the proper mark and was shocked at how far out it was....
Two things come to mind:
#1 holy crap , the engine still ran?
#2 not only ran but with 18 mpg and surviving the romp...Gotta love this engine, poor timing, age , runs on dirt and old gas...
The second thing I did under the bonnet was to see the new alternator bracket holding my new delco 10si was BROKEN. The weld( if you could call it that) , was broken and the part attached to the engine was only touching the part holding on to my shiny new alternator. At only 500 miles from install I am less than amused.
Took it to the local tractor repair place down the street. Old guy said a few choice words about poor craftsmanship and cheap welders, took it out back and 10 min later I had a welded bracket. Bugger was still hot.
I guess $80 for an alt bracket was not well spent.
Good news is the location being up on the top of the engine, the alt flapping in the breeze was easy to see.
I can't imagine what damage would have occurred if that thing had fallen into the spinning metal fan blade at highway speeds...
Well live and learn...