109 tires and Michelin

[PH4]

Would someone please explain the difference to me between Michelin XL, XCL, XZL, and XS tires? Also, will 16.50s fit on 109 Rover rims and what is the difference between 7.50s? I have a spare XCL on the bonnet spare on one of my Rovers. I like the look of it. Are these good all around tires? Any other tires suggested for 109 SW. I like the stock size and do not want wider or taller tires than required. Lot of questions but help would be appreciated before I plunk down my cash for tires. I drive on highway(not interstate), sand, and sometimes mud.

[Leslie]

A) http://www.seriestrek.com/manuals/optionalparts2.pdf
Scroll down to page 59.

B) XL and XS aren't available anymore. The XCL was a respected tire, and you can find some used:
https://www.roversnorth.com/store/pm-13158-1-used-michelin-xcl-tire-750-x-16-radial.aspx

C) The XZL is the newer radial version of the XCL. Not cheap.
http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-11066-tire-michelin-xzl-750-x-16.aspx

D) You can't use 16.5" tires on 16" rims.

E) A 6.5x16 tire is telling you that the height of the tire from the rim to the treadface is 6.5", so double that and add 16" for the wheel diameter, and you have a 29" tall tire. A 7.5x16" wheel is going to be a 31" tall tire (approximately).

F) For a 109 SW, a 7.5x16 would be good. Or, a 235/85R16 would be really close to a 7.5x16. Some people will run a 8.25x16 or a 9x16 on a 109. A 255/85R16 might work, too, but I'd suggest looking at the 235/85's...

G) Sounds like a BFG AllTerrain T/A-ko or their M/T-km might be a good tire for you to consider. Actually, I really like the Dunlop Radial Rover R/T, it might be a good one to consider, or maybe the Cooper Courser.

http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/catalog/off-road/5.html
http://dunloptires.com/dunlop/display_tire.jsp?prodline=Radial+Rover+RT&mrktarea=Light+Truck
http://www.coopertire.com/html/products/tires_lighttruck.aspx?page=courser_traction_lt&search=bySize&twtd=0&artw=7.5&rd=16


FWIW...

[J!m]

All good info there, but a bit more detail on the various Michelin tire designs...

XL: currently used by the military, and not too expensive if you find the right source. Wear is slightly better than warm butter, more like cold butter. Mike has these on his 101 (11.00-16 size) and is quite happy with them, but did note they are wearing "fast".

XCL: The "end-all be-all" of mud tires. Good for absolutely nothing else (they do look cool!). Same tread design as the XL, but a softer rubber compound. Wears like warm butter, with highway mileage ranging at less than 10K in many cases. Used on Camel Trophy trucks in the mid-eighties, so they are coveted for restorations and "Sham-el" trucks.

XS: EXCELLENT tire! designed for sand and rocky dirt roads. This 7.50-16 runs taller than normal as well, but not quite as tall as a typical 9.00-16. Still available in South Africa (Labeled Africa S quite often there- sometimes with white letters too) good wear and good on-road manners. Sucky in mud...

XZL: Basically a snow tire on steroids. Quite expensive, good performance, moderate wear. Used on later Camel trucks (well, the 110's anyway). They run narrow, but are true height. Sizes other than 7.50-16 are very hard to get, and this may be out of production now as well. I have received conflicting stories on that...

I run the (NLA) Cooper Discoverer STT (tread has been redesigned on the current STT) and I am at about 60K miles (rotating six tires onto the truck, not just four) and they are shot. Good ride and good on and off road manners, but noisy. wear is acceptable for a mud tire. If you can find these old tread ones for your truck, you will see why they are quite popular on rovers as they have the right "look" as well.

I'm in the market for tires now, so I may add to this thread as I get info on current commoly available tires for the Rovers.

[PH4]

Thank you both for your responses. I definitely like the look of the Michelin X series. Would these tires in 6.50 x 16 be acceptable on a 109 SW? Would they look or be too small? Narrow? Also, do the X series tires perform ok on wet roads?

[J!m]

7.50-16 fit well on the 109.

Also, sizes other than 7.50-16 (such as 8.25-16, 9.00-16 and 11.00-16) are much harder to get.

[Leslie]

I concur, a 6.5-16 will be small on a 109, go up to the 7.5-16 size (a 235/85R16 is a close approximation in size).

I've got 7.5-16 XZL's on my 88"; I can't speak as to the actual performance of the others. These aren't quiet (but, neither is a Series); I've got a Subaru for a commuter, so I don't see a lot of mileage either, so I can't testify as to how many miles I'll get out of them either; and while they look tough, they're not the best "mud" tire out there, (but, if it's THAT bad, use something tracked, right?? ;) )

[J!m]

I think I may go with some nice, quiet high-mileage on-road tires, and buy a second set of chains.

I'll put my street tires and chains against any mud tire of the same size and see who gets further in the mud...

I do so many on-road miles, it just makes sense. Even driving to the Arctic Circle and beyond, there wasn't much where the mud/snow tires were needed...

And, I may get a set of XL's...

[fruitpunch]

Michelin "X" the original.... came long before all the other XZL, XCL, XL, XYZ, XS.

Michelin X was stock tire on early 90's & 110's on the continent... an all around tire. I think I got about 90000km on mine a few times around the globe :D. Compound pretty hard, pretty bad in the rain, good on the road, soso in mud.... was a 7.50 R16. Replaced them the with the NLA BF Track Edge, that was like rails in the snow but wore much faster.

XYZ came on a firetruck I owned, special snow tires wore out within about 2 months when temps went up, never seen another set.

[JimCT]

running 255-85R 16's on our ambulance and 235's on the RR. Surprisingly quiet on the road, siped and excellent in the snow and ice and better than the coopers in the mud. Pretty damn cheap too. Just a thought

[J!m]

I'll give the Truxxus a try... Any preferred vendeor?

[fruitpunch]

Traxxus on my d90 were great just like the BFG MT the first 20k but then they get really loud. I got them when they first came out for 99 bucks free shipping, think I would go MT again... or Trac Edge if it was made again.

[J!m]

I am looking for a tire with a "street" center rib and a very aggressive side wall/tread edge to keep it (somewhat) quiet on the road when aired-up, and then I can air down and make use of the side of the tread and side walls in the nasty stuff.

Something like the old Avon tires used on the series trucks in the sixties. Those made sense for a Land-Rover, as they often served dual duty as mine does now.

I'll drive 4-8 thousand miles (or more) on a single expedition, and most of it is on road of some kind (some better than others). I need a TRUE dual-purpose tire, which I think may not exist, so the chain idea reamins...

Still searching!

[PH4]

To burden you with further questions, my 109 3 door has Firestones that were put on it in Europe and they have tubes. Is it best to run tubes? Can all tires run tubes? If not, can the Michelin Xs run tubes? Advantages of tubes?

[J!m]

Most of the Michelin tires require tubes.

You can run tubeless tires with tubes, and you obviously need tubes for tube tires.

The rims are different, with tubeless rims having a safety bead to lock the tire on the rim. This is important if you run low pressures, as we often do off-road, to keep the tire on the rim, although I have been quite lucky in not loosing a bead while off-road. They come off easier, but also seat easier as well. I use a cargo strap to crush the tread area and help set the bead as air is installed...

I happen to run tube rims with tubeless ties (and no tube installed), for many reasons.

1) Tube rims are easy to break down in the field. The same reason for the tubeless safety bead is reason for added difficulty in dismounting a tire in the field. This can save considerable weight, particularly on an 88 or 90, where space and weight carrying capacity are paramount. I carried a second un-mounted tire, knowing I could mount it myself if I shredded a tire. This saved the weight of a sixth rim in my over-packed 88.

2) Tubes require the dismounting of the tire to repair the tube. Tubeless tires often can be fixed on the rim (I have even done a plug on the truck, without letting the rest of the air out!). No jack needed...

3) Tube rims are easy to get for Land-Rovers. My 1995-spec 110 has tube rims as standard. Also, the cast aluminum "on-road" wheels love to crack and break off-road, whereas steel wheels can be fixed with good old-fashioned brute force. Basically, if your life depends on your truck getting you home, you'd better be able to repair it with a hammer...

4) If your tubeless tire gets REALLY messed up, you CAN run a tube in it. These tend to run hot, and should be avoided, but a generous application of baby powder helps.

So, I run with six mounted and balanced tires (which I rotate on the truck for even wear and maximum mileage) and I carry a tube or two in my gear along with a Safety-Seal plug kit in case two spares just isn't enough. I also have a set of Australian made Tyre-Pliers, which work great! Don't forget to practice with them before you pack them away and forget about them...

[PH4]

Lot of food for thought. If I cannot find a second hand set of Michelin X series think I will go for Cooper Courser 7.50x16. Anyone have any experience with the Courser tire?

[PH4]

Lot of food for thought. If I cannot find a second hand set of Michelin X series think I will go for Cooper Courser 7.50x16. Anyone have any experience with the Courser tire?

[fruitpunch]

Please correct me if you believe I am wrong....

http://www.aircrafttyres.com/images/Michelin%209.00R16%20XY%20new%20and%20used.JPG

This I believe is the original Michelin X pattern as on early 90's 110's.... and I also think very similar to truck tire treads.... might even be a truck tire R20 or something like that.

http://www.aircrafttyres.com/images/0092.JPG

I believe XL, but very close to XCL....

http://www.aircrafttyres.com/images/Michelin%20255100R16%20XZL%20new%20and%20used.JPG

XZL, also make sure if you spent the big bucks for these you know if they are new or retreads I have seen some scarry things happen with retreads @ speed, but fine for offroading only.

http://www.aircrafttyres.com/images/Michelin%2016.00R20%20XL%20new.JPG

XL I believe...


http://www.witham-sv.com/vehicles/840.jpg

XS but then Sand will be hard to find around here

[Leslie]

Fruity, I think you're on the mark...

I *believe* the XL is the larger commercial version of the XCL (more for equipment than normal passenger vehicles).

XZL's can be run w/o tubes. My tread looks nothing like the one that you've posted:
I'll find a pic... http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/front/image.ImagePhotothequeServlet?codePhoto=1566&codeGalerie=MICHELIN_PAYS&codeRubrique=20060127104058&taille=vignette


The old TracEdge was a great tire. IMHO, the best, closest thing to it available right now would be the Dunlop Rover R/T. I'd highly suggest giving the R/T at least some degree of consideration, FWIW...

[Leslie]

http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=20060301154613
For the XZL....



http://www.dunloptire.com/dunlop/display_tire.jsp?prodline=Radial+Rover+RT&mrktarea=Light+Truck
For the R/T...
And also http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Dunlop&tireModel=Radial+Rover+R%2FT

[fruitpunch]

For some reason it sticks in my mind that they changed the pattern from the original XZL's to the O/R version, at some point the XCL also was out of production. Or may be I am remembering the 9.00's on the 101's.

I still can't figure out what BFG was smoking when they stopped the Trac Edge, I guess volume was too low. Most Posers were buying MT's the daily drivers the AT's and the handful globetrotters the Trac Edges....

http://www.landcruiser-teile.de/zubh_dateien/bfgtrac.jpg

[JimCT]

There is a 4WD shop in East Hampton that carries them, but the last set I found on ebay for a good price. Jim

[J!m]

I was shopping last night and found a perfect tire for the series. The Goodyear G171, which is a drive wheel tire.

Designed for off-highway, but still good on-road

It comes in 7.50-16 equivalent (31 inches tall) and is designed for commercial use, so no ugly white letters on them. No idea on price- I have to check with my local Goodyear dealer for that.

Check their web site- they look more aggressive in person, but allegedly quiet (ish) on the road.

I saw these on the Yukon Territories trucks up on the Dempster Highway, and decided to look them up.

Too short for my 110, but perfect for my series (both need tires now...)

[Leslie]

For some reason it sticks in my mind that they changed the pattern from the original XZL's to the O/R version, at some point the XCL also was out of production. Or may be I am remembering the 9.00's on the 101's.

I still can't figure out what BFG was smoking when they stopped the Trac Edge, I guess volume was too low. Most Posers were buying MT's the daily drivers the AT's and the handful globetrotters the Trac Edges....

http://www.landcruiser-teile.de/zubh_dateien/bfgtrac.jpg




There are different XZL patterns still; commerical equipment and larger truck tires look like the one you posted, but the 4x4 O/R one in Rover sizes is the one in my link above.


I concur, the TracEdges are legendary.

AND.... the BFG Commerical T/A-traction is NOT a good substitute for it. I put a set of those on the Disco, and it ran through them like butter, the regular BFG AT-ko is a much better tire than the Commericals....

[KevinNY]

For something like the Trac Edge and A tire that I have had unbelievably good luck on and off road with, I can not reccomend the Copper Discoverer ST highly enough. They also have the "right Look" in 235/85 on a series.

[TeriAnn]

I still can't figure out what BFG was smoking when they stopped the Trac Edge, I guess volume was too low. Most Posers were buying MT's the daily drivers the AT's and the handful globetrotters the Trac Edges....

Trac Edges were a funny sort of hybrid tyre. The all terrains and mud terrains were BFG's off road tyres that used their "armored side wall" casing. Those tyres were designed from the bead out to encounter nasty protrusions.

The Trac Edge, I think, was envisioned as a pickup tyre for people who drove a lot on dirt roads that got muddy part of the year. It was basically a street pickup tyre with knobby mud tyre edges added to help the pickup get through the muddy sections of the road. It was never marketed with the All Terrain and the Mud Terrain as an off road tyre with strong sidewalls. Instead BFG had it listed in the section with the other light truck tyres.

The Trac edge likely died because people who wanted something other than a light truck street tyre went to BFG's off road tyre offerings.

My Land Rover has been shod with BFG Mud Terrains for the past 160,000 or so miles (I get about 60K miles per set). I have used other brands & treads under my Land Rover over the years, starting with Michlin XCL's and have decided the the BFG MT's are the best overall tyre for the types of driving I do. There are better tyres for each kind of driving, but I have yet to try one that is as good an all around tyre that provided me with high puncture resistance and long mileage.

Just some thoughts,

[Clive]

X and XS are still available throughout Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Cost about GBP 200 a pop. No pun intended, they have thin walls and are not good with sharp objects around....amazing in sand 'though. Have been in 2 WD gliding over the desert sand of Northern Kenya with three other vehicles using different treads bogging in 4 WD.

[fruitpunch]

Yes the sidewalls of the Trac Edge was the weak spot, also worth mentioning is that I had some friends that had studded them for winter driving. If the only thing BF G would have done was put the M/T sidewalls on these it would get 98 points out of 100 form me. Originally it was a 92 point tire :eek:

Fruity's tire rating system....


Trac Edge 92
M/T 88
A/T 75
Radial Rover 86
XZL 96 (if you consider price and wear 85 )
XCL 90 ( just too soft for road )
X 82 ( long lasting but too scarry when wet)
Traxxus 87
Firestone 70 (original tire on my IIa if score was for original then 100)
Chinese 79 (currently on my IIa, wear sucks but soo bargainous)

Others to try Silverstone MT 117 on something with a big lift supposed to be up there with the XZL one size only. No DOT I believe

Also my old XCL's didn't have DOT markings and taking them past 65mph was scarry

[J!m]

Regarding tire markings:

Many of the Michelin tires noted are available to the military, and do not have DOT markings. They do however have MIL markings on the side wall. These are good up to 55MPH per mil spec, but do not have to travel faster on road to meet the spec.

Traveling faster on XL's for example can be a bit scary in any type of weather; however Mike reports his 11.00-16 XL's are much safer feeling than his 9.00-16 equivalent Buck-$hit mudders which are now rotting peacefully in the woods behind his house...

Again- not a road tire. If you go above 55MPH with any mud tire, you are taking a chance. If you wan to go fast, get a proper street tire, and enjoy the ride. I may get another set of six wheels shod with street tires for the long hauls, a Sankey loaded with six (enter favorite mud tire here) mounted on another six wheels, and swap them at the trail head... That is if the chain idea is too much trouble, but I think the chain idea is easier, and quicker, and takes up less space, less weight, no need for a trailer, etc...

[JimCT]

Here are the tires on our RR

[TSR53]

Here are the tires on our RR

...and the Unimog (right?!?) with Continentals?

[fruitpunch]

Hmm ex swiss military pertrol 404, conti makes sense. my ex swiss mil 88 has one conti 7.50 spare

[JimCT]

YEs those are Continentals, but the Mog is a German radiobox the spare is a Fulda...just so happen to know because we had a flat today playing in the flooded Ct river...

[TSR53]

YEs those are Continentals, but the Mog is a German radiobox the spare is a Fulda...just so happen to know because we had a flat today playing in the flooded Ct river...

Ok Jim, make a new thread in OT with Unimog photos... Weekend project :thumb-up:. More details.

ps... don't forget the Fulda spare photo details (kewl I guess right?) and today's CT flooded river jaunt. Hopefully, you took the camera.