Weird no start/no power.

[Billy5]

Ok, first off I am new to rovers. Second I have the green bible. So heres my problem. My right tail light would light up when the key is on, but the light switch is off. I looked at the grounds on the top of the tub, looked ok. Dusty but ok. So I thought perhaps the switch itself maybe be bad, allowing power to pass through to that side. I took the dash plate with the switches off to look around ( lots of wires back there) didn't see anything to out of line, except that they are old. So I decided to leave things alone for the time, and went to start it. I got nada. The headlights dont come on, no power at all. I checked the battery and I have 12.15 volts. Mind you I had zero issues up until I looked into the rear light. Always started with no problem. Now, could I have jarred a wire loose when I put the dash back in? Or are there fuses elsewhere that I am missing. I have two on the firewall that appear to be good. Thank you for any direction you may have.:confused:

[I Leak Oil]

What happens when you put a set of jumper cables on it?

[Billy5]

I didnt try cables. I have 12 volts, I dont even have a click click. Its as if the truck is getting no power now. Headlights dont come on, nothing. I just cant think of what I could of done to cause it. Did I jar a wire loose? Its just bizarre. all from a tail light that comes on with the ignition switch, rather than the light switch. But I guess I will try a jump pack. Cant hurt.

[Apis Mellifera]

It sounds like perhaps the ignition circuit and brake light circuit have been switched. As a laugh, you could try pressing the brake and then try starting it.

I'd suggest tracing the various circuits to find where the power is. Brown wires are constant 12V, white is switched, and, as I recall, green with purple is the brake circuit.

The minimum you need to run is constant (switched via the key) 12V on the coil (white wire).

To activate the starter solenoid you need momentary 12V. You could jumper the battery to the coil and then either briefly jumper to the small spade terminal on the (new style) solenoid or briefly (via an actual jumper cable) directly to the starter (new or old style) solenoid.

Regardless, you need a test light and some time to ring some wires.

PS, both brake lights should light unless there is something REALLY weird going on.

[leafsprung]

trace your circuit backwards from the battery with a voltage meter. Do you have a wiring diagram you can work from?

[Billy5]

OK update: I have 12.30 volts at the battery. I checked the connections at the fuse block on the fire wall, seemed ok, but the spade connectors seemed a little loose, I will crimp them down tomorrow. However, When I turned the key to try and start it, it turned over but did not run. So, I checked the connection at the ignition switch. All popped off easily, so I put them back as best as I could, hopefully on the right prongs. Does the switch distribute all the power to the vehicle? I know on boats they do. The switch looks like a standard multi position one. I also think its original, so is it possible the switch just finally crapped out in a coincidental matter? I have looked at the wiring diagram, and I dont see how I can get power to the rear running light with just the ignition switch on, unless the switch is allowing power to flow...I will keep search and researching. Hey its my first rover, with 42 year old wires and switches. And it is just the right rear running light that comes on with the ignition turned on. The po, wired in an aftermarket brake light switch, but it was running just fine until today. Thank you for all the help thus far.

[leafsprung]

-are you getting power to the fuse block switched terminals with the key on?
-Are you sure that the rear lamp is a running light and not a brake lamp?

Check your ignition circuit for voltage:

Bat->solenoid->ign switch->fuse block->coil->distributor

[Billy5]

-are you getting power to the fuse block switched terminals with the key on?
-Are you sure that the rear lamp is a running light and not a brake lamp?

Check your ignition circuit for voltage:

Bat->solenoid->ign switch->fuse block->coil->distributor

Not sound stupid, but the wires to the fuse block are a little murky. There are two fuses. The top and bottom. Which one is switched, and which one is hot all the time? i will clean the wires off so i can tell the colors tomorrow. I have power to the solenoid, but then nothing to the fuse block ( of course I am not sure which one I should be looking at), also heres a kicker, the light comes on with my emergency brake engaged? I just found that one out. I have owned it going on three weeks, what a way to jump in..Now, there is a brown wire going to the same panel as my ignition, it goes to a little box with green and white wires, this is fused ( or so it looks, but I cannot get it open to look). The diagram isnt clear as to what it is or I might be misreading it. Just curious. I will check the power tomorrow. I have both a test light, and a meter.

[SafeAirOne]

Not sound stupid, but the wires to the fuse block are a little murky. There are two fuses. The top and bottom. Which one is switched, and which one is hot all the time?

According to the wiring diagram (http://www.roversnorth.com/store/images/category/medium/LR-page83.pdf), the brown with blue tracer feed wire is hot all the time and the one with the white feed wire is switched via the ignition switch. Note that the white wire also feeds other stuff BEFORE the fuse (cold start lamp, oil pressure lamp, charge lamp, coil/fuel shutoff solenoid (if equipped).

[martindktm]

also heres a kicker, the light comes on with my emergency brake engaged?


There is no switch or nothing electrical connected to the parking brake...:sly::confused:

[Billy5]

tell me about it, I just noticed that one right before all this happened. Im thinking pinched wires when I engage it. But right now I would like for it to run. I am still amazed how I went from a tail light issue to a non running rig. As i said, the lights dont even come on with the ignition switch on now. A big bummer, yes, do i still love it, without a doubt. Its learning curve for me, and I am getting to know other members, searching the boards..

[Apis Mellifera]

A couple of things: the lights should work without the key on and in my SIII, the brake lights also work with the key off.

As I said before, it's really easy to get it running, if that is your goal: put power to the coil and turn the engine over; either via the hand crank or starter.

It sounds like you have some serious wiring issues. It's impossible for anyone to remotely test the various circuits, so you're going to have to dive in with a test light/DVM and a diagram. Luckily, the older the vehicle, the fewer the wires. I've found printing a copy of the diagram and tracing it with a highlighter makes it easier to keep the circuits straight. Good luck. I actually love wiring problems - easy to fix and satisfying when the light finally lights.

[Billy5]

thank you for all the help. I am going for round two today. I figured something electrically would go awry at some point, just not in my third week of ownership. It was running the champ before this. Thankfully, not alot has been mucked with, no accessories tied in all over, although it has the gm alternator conversion. I just hope I can see the wire colors, the bible the letters are so damn small. Whats getting me the most ( other than being a newbie), is i am not getting power through the truck. So testing maybe daunting..I will get there.

[amcordo]

There really aren't that many electrical connections in this truck. Just be patient and make a list of connections to check via the wiring diagram. If you're willing to do it all right - go to each connection, undo it a little, clear it of debris and rust, and smear some dialectric grease on it. If it's your third week, future you will appreciate cleaning the connections thoroughly now.

[stomper]

I don't know if this helps, but on my series IIA, the P.O. connected a spade connector incorrectly on the back of the ignition switch, and it caused my marker lights to light up whenever the key was turned on. Does the left marker light light up at all? You may have a burnt out bulb, and in actuallyity it is not just one lighting up, but both.

I would take everyone elses advice here and start cleaning and tightening all of the connections. I would start at the ignition switch though, as I bet this is where the problem is.

[JHK07]

May sound silly.... roll your truck 3ft... then try to start it.


Will It push start? If the truck started before you took the dash apart, I would think you problem would be there.

[Billy5]

Update: Got truck to crank, but it did not fire off. So, I checked for power at the fuse block on the fire wall. I have power on the lower ( key on), but no power at the top. At all. So I ran a lead from the battery to the coil and poof she started. So I have no power getting to the coil...progress. You guys are awsome!

[SafeAirOne]

The coil should be getting power from the hot in "START" and "RUN" circuit but not the "ALWAYS HOT" circuit. Something aint right. My bet is on the ignition switch or it's wiring configuiration.

[Apis Mellifera]

As I said before, it's really easy to get it running, if that is your goal: put power to the coil and turn the engine over


So I ran a lead from the battery to the coil and poof she started.


My usual consulting fee is $100 in all but rare cases where the advice proves accurate or in someway useful. Under those circumstances, all fees are waived.

[Billy5]

Thank you Apis for letting me slide..:D. So todays adventure..from what I understand, the top half of the fuse block should be constant hot. I have zip. Key on or not. So I ran a lead to one of the spades from the battery. It started and ran, but would not shut off unless I took the lead off. So that told me, the coil wire is good. Part of my problem is wire colors. Some of wires have the cloth with the colors on it, some do not. Also the whole bundle along the firewall has the original cloth wrap with lucas written on it. Do i have to unwrap the whole bundle to trace wires? I am guessing yes. While I was at it, I checked power to the solenoid. There are three spade terminals on it. I have power to all but one, the one closest to the starter cable. Should all terminals be hot? As far as the ignition switch. When I pulled the dash out, one of the wires came off. So i guessed as to wear it went. I cannot find the proper order them, on the switch. There are four wires going to it. Those have colors still visible. My first hunch was the switch failed. Can I use a regular old four post switch? I have access to them, in the work I do. And, I still have no power on the upper portion of the fuse block. But I have my headlights back...getting there..

[leafsprung]

No you should not cut off the original cloth braid of the wiring harness. Referring to the wiring diagram will save you a lot of guessing and will answer most of your questions.

[Billy5]

I was hoping I wouldn't have too. I have the diagram ( green bible), what I am having the most difficulty with is experience with reading them for one, two I am missing some colors on the wires. I was curious if there may have been a fusible link in there that may not have shown up on the diagram. Which I now know there is not. So what I need to do is, write out so I can understand it better. And lets not forget, I have a slight case of first time owner panic:D
PS i am still interested in those bits you have, after I get it running..lol

[LaneRover]

As you go through definitely check and clean up all the grounds. Most of the electrical problems I have had over the years has been the ground.

[Apis Mellifera]

There actually are fusible links in the Lucas harness: they are the wires themselves. The larger ones are slo-blow.

The solenoid basically has three connection points: two large screw terminals and a small spade terminal. One of the screw terminals has the battery cable and some brown wires (one around a 10g - constant unswitched power to the fuse block). These wire connections may be ring terminals or spades. The other screw terminal has only the starter cable. The small spade terminal on the side is for the MOMENTARY switched power from the key switch.

The key switch (and part of the fuse block) has the constant brown. Assuming your key switch only has off - on - start, the first position sends power to the white wires. This powers the coil. The start position is a momentary switch and sends power to the solenoid, which energizes, allowing the battery power to pass directly through the solenoid and to the starter. Once the key is in the on position, the solenoid spade terminal shouldn't have voltage on it.

If this is your first time dealing with wiring, marginal or otherwise, I HIGHLY recommend a test light or a "buzz box". These are the most basic of test equipment and will help you determine where the power is going and how/if the various switches are working. I have several long alligator clip jumpers too. A volt meter will do the same tests, but these things will allow you to reach and isolate circuits whether you know the wire colors or not and will visually tell you instantly if the circuit is in order.

[Billy5]

Yes, this is basically my first real electrical trouble shooting experience. I have done some new wiring before but very basic. All of the other times I had trouble ( on boats I work in marina-paint and fiberglass Im an ace with), So on the solenoid I saw three spade connections. Two of those are thin gauge ( i would say 16g roughly), the third looked heavier but not 10g, looks more like 14, but I could be wrong. I have both a test light and digital volt meter. I have power ( constant) at two of the three spade connections on the solenoid. The third has zip. I have been staring at the diagram for two hours, and did not see the connection from the solenoid to the fuse block. I will look again. By the time I am done, I know I will look like a complete idiot.

[Apis Mellifera]

Can you post a somewhat-close picture of the solenoid?

[Billy5]

Yes i can do it tomorrow, and another oddity, my ignition switch has extra spades, even though i only need four. It does say lucas on it but why the extra spaces dont know.

[leafsprung]

Solenoid has three small connections:

1)Horn - constant power
2)voltage regulator -constant power
3)ignition switch - hot when you turn the starter switch

Sounds like your solenoid wiring is fine. The ignition switch has more terminals than are used. Again study the wiring diagram to determine the number and correct orientation of the wires in an original configuration.

Study the wiring diagram here:

http://www.lrfaq.org/Series/images/10-N.jpg

Trace the lines from one end to the other to see what path each circuit takes. You should be able to match this up with your truck so you can test circuits from the battery to each load to determine if there are problems.

[Billy5]

I cannot thank you enough. As usual, I looked at the diagram with my panic eyes, instead of taking one thing at a time. So my issue is the coil is not getting power. So I will just focus on that. It gets its power from the fuse block from the way I am understanding it. So, it also looks like its switched power as well. I do believe I am starting to get my head around it. As for the regulator, I dont think I have one, the po installed a gm alternator conversion. Another small problem is I dont know where ( physically ) items are located on the truck, as this is my first one. But I am getting there. Again, thank you.

[LaneRover]

I cannot thank you enough. As usual, I looked at the diagram with my panic eyes, instead of taking one thing at a time. So my issue is the coil is not getting power. So I will just focus on that. It gets its power from the fuse block from the way I am understanding it. So, it also looks like its switched power as well. I do believe I am starting to get my head around it. As for the regulator, I dont think I have one, the po installed a gm alternator conversion. Another small problem is I dont know where ( physically ) items are located on the truck, as this is my first one. But I am getting there. Again, thank you.

Don't rule out having to clean up the connections on the fuses. A little 600 grit sand paper or emory paper wrapped around a pencil will clean up the 'clips' that hold the fuses in.

[Billy5]

Ah..the saga continues. Well I am getting pretty good at reading wiring diagrams..and the guys at RN are way helpful. The diagram was confusing me because as i followed wires on it, some go to a voltage regulator. I no longer have on, as it was converted. So, I am trying to figure out where did the wires that went to the regulator go. I have four greens on the switched fuse, and four on the other. One of these is supposed to be hot all the time ( unswitched). This i do not have. The switched fuse has power when the key is on, but the other has none. So, I jumped the switched fuse strip, to the one with no power, and she started. And, I really loved this one, both brake lights are on. But hey only one was on before ( the whole reason behind this mess.). the good news is, my oil light works ( it didnt before) and the cold start light ( that stays on though). So i am making progress I think. There was a question regarding the output of the alternator. From what the guys at RN told me, the wiring can handle up to 42 amps, the alternator is 60. So my concern could this cause a problem. The way i understand the diagram is, one of the fused strip goes the interior light, and thats it. The other has five whites, and four greens. So why do i have all the extra wires?

[Billy5]

Well it helps to have the right diagram. US fed standard. Didnt know about that one. Big difference. Still nothing yet, but hey. I put the gallon of gas away, along with the matches. Thank you RN, for sending me the right one. Now,wheres the for sale sign..:D

[Billy5]

Had quite a few AH HA moments. two of the three problems found, and fixed. Thank you guys again for the help!

[SafeAirOne]

...two of the three problems found, and fixed.

Details??

[Billy5]

Ok, well first things first. I wasn't great at reading diagrams. But I am now ( well not great but much better). I also didnt know what wires went where ( the whites), so I powered each one and traced it to the item it was powering ( cold start light not on, but I am not sure if it needs to be). The main culprit was intermittent power from the brown/blue to the ignition switch. The po did a gm alternator conversion, so the two wires that got connected together wasnt great. So i reconnected and poof power to the ignition switch and thereby power to the lower fuse strip. Once I did this, the brake lights ( both) lit up when I turned the key ( original problem except I only had one lit) The po installed an aftermarket brake light switch. When I poked my head under the dash where he installed it, one of the prongs was bent over making contact with the EXPOSED spade connector therby shorting it, send power to the rear lights. Since I had an intermittent power issues all along, that is why one lit and not both. That end of it is fixed. But now for another question. According to the diagram, one of the two fuses is constant hot, from the brown/blue. THis power the sockets on the dash and panel light switch. I could not find it. So i untaped the wiring for the alternator. There it was. THe po had this connected to the white wire from the alternator. There is also a lead from the battery. In my mind this tells me that the alternator is getting power from two sources, the battery and the brown. Am i correct in that thinking. The third wire is red, which was connected to the fuse strip. I started it up and checked for power from the alternator ( trace amount from the white, nothing from the red). The smaller red and the white come from a connector at the alternator. I am going to research that more on the boards. For now, i am going to run the brown back to the fuse strip to power the other fuse. At least thats what i am seeing in the diagram. I learned so much in the past few days, thank you guys!!

[Partsman]

http://www.series2club.info/diagrams/2A_petrol_pos.pdf Here's a wiring diagram, it may be of some help to sort this problem out, now keep in mind that this is how it SHOULD be, not how it may actually be. Who knows what changes the PO's have made over the years.

[Billy5]

Thank you, i have a diagram. I had one, but it was the wrong one. I have a US spec series 2a, i didnt know there was a different one for it. All the difference in the world. I have figured out the alternator wiring to ( i think). It has one red going from the battery to the post on the alternator. THen two wires from a connector. One red, and one white. The red was connected to the upper fuse strip ( where a brown, constant hot should be), and the white was connected to a brown constant hot ( approx 10g). The white should be connected to my ignition light or a switched power source. The red should go to battery. At least thats what I see.

[Billy5]

All fixed!! First experience with the electrical system on it. Overall, frustrating, but I learned a tremendous amount, thank you all again for the help. Hopefully I can return the favor!