200 TDI into a Series IIA

[Skookumchuck]

Well I found a 200 TDI out of a Disco, the guy I am buying it from has a kit to move the turbo from the front to the middle of the manifold. Also he says that I can do a 180 on the altinattor and put it high on the right side of the motor. OK so here is the question will this work or am I buying a lot of work to fit this TDI in. Thanks for any and all replys. I have to pay for the motor on Tuesday so help is appreciated.

[albersj51]

From what I understand it's pretty much a bolt in swap. Look at the section on expeditionlandrover.info terri anne has a lot of info on it. The disco is harder to fit because of the turbo, but if they have a kit to move it, you should be good. I know there is some work to do on the bellhousing studs, but nothing major. Also, some good info on doing it sans turbo for better fit and longevity. Plus, even without a turbo it puts out more hp than a 2.25, much more torque and wont stress the stock gearbox and rear end.
Lucky dog! I really want a 200tdi, but too much champaign for my beer budget.

[yank]

You also have to modify the radiator and fan.
I have found some good info on doing a 200Di swap. I think its a good option for a 88".

http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di.htm

[CMorris]

I'm just finishing up this conversion, however with a Defender "hi-turbo" engine. On the Disco version you will have to counter sink the four bolts at the bottom of engine plate for clearance, and as you know, alt. and turbo must move. Both engines require right side engine mount fabrication, and battery tray removal. I opted to remove the intercooler from the radiator/intercooler frame, shorten the frame so it just contains the radiator, and have Bell Intercoolers build an intercooler for me (this was purely to keep the headlights in the radiator panel instead of going outboard to the wings).
I do have photos for anyone interested.
5198

5199

[Moose]

I'm just finishing up this conversion, however with a Defender "hi-turbo" engine...

I do have photos for anyone interested.


I would love to see more photos! I am planing on this conversion for my 88. Have secured a Defender 200Tdi, just looking to get it shipped from the UK. My truck currently has a 2.5 NA diesel in it, so the motor mount and battery tray mods are already done. The only real hassles left to swap in the Tdi I think are the inter-cooler and then the exhaust.

Skookumchuck, is your truck LHD or RHD? I believe I read the Disco Tdi is an easier swap into a RHD truck.

Brett

[Skookumchuck]

My truck is LHD, but the kit the seller is providing takes that into account and he is sending me a lot of pictures and a dvd on how to get everything in place. I really do not want to move my headlights to the wing that would take away the charm of the 68. Morris if you have any pictures and contact info for the company that fabricated your intercooler I would appreciate it if you would provide them. Well it looks like I will have to buy this motor on Wednsday. Thanks for the input.:thumb-up:

[RoverForm]

5198
morris, that is going to be incredible to drive when complete. a little off topic, but which tires are those you have there?

[Skookumchuck]

285/75/R16's Pro-Comps, they came with the truck. Kinda noisy on the highway but great on the trails.

Just an update sourced the new to me motor in Ontario Canada, it is coming with the new manifold so it will fit into Red Rover. Hopefully the parts and motor will be showing up in a week or so. I will post pics of the whole project as we go.

Now I am having to wait.....:mad:

[CMorris]

morris, that is going to be incredible to drive when complete. a little off topic, but which tires are those you have there?

Michelin XZL 7.50x16 from Rovers North.

[REDrum]

I will post pics of the whole project as we go.

How have things been going?

Assuming its in running now, any lessons learned you feel like sharing?

[dreamin88s]

I too would like to see pics espicaly of the modified turbo setup,
the turbo's both 300& 200 defender ,seems even clocking the turbo (300) still is in the way of the steering box end on a LHD (don't know proper name) and the defender exhaust exits 1/4-1/2" over the same area, as mentioned on another site the only way to overcome this is to go power steering or move the motor mounts,adapter plate ect...
if there is a way please share:)
not looking for debating.....just maybe ideas in how this could be done:thumb-up:

[73series88]

when my motor up and leaves, knock on wood
this is going to be my choice.
hopefully not for long time.
aaron

[baja gs]

I think the 200DI minus T might be the way to go. I have looked around and have seen some motors used or rebuilt for sale, but I would be interested in a 200di core (minus the turbo) to rebuild. My neighbor is a deisel mech and maybe order the parts to rebuild from our host Roversnorth. Where to begin?:confused:

[o2batsea]

am I buying a lot of work to fit this TDI in ?

Oh yeah. And I mean a lot. Not a bolt in by any means. Many mods needed. Swapping to power steering will help ease the pain somewhat.

[I Leak Oil]

I think the 200DI minus T might be the way to go.

Just curious, after putting in all the work and expense of a motor transplant, why leave out the turbo? Why a 200 at that point instead of a regular 2.5d or a Mercedes diesel?

[baja gs]

Why a 200di minus turbo? I have done some reading on this matter and have come up with this. To begin with I am not a professional mech. That said, I saw a British site that sold the 200DI. Their claim was that without the turbo, mating the engine was much easier, that the standard radiator could be used. Also no intercooler. The non turbo is less worry on the trans and drive train, and fitting under the bonnet. The 200 TDI was made to withstand the added pressure caused by the turbo, so without the turbo, should last a long, long time. Now with this set up, it wont be a big jump in power, as far as a big noticeable increase in speed off starts and such, but will pull a mountain pass at 60-65 instead of 45. I dont know that this is all true, thats why Im asking. If this is the case, maybe some one could jump in with some good advice.

[TeriAnn]

There was a long thread about the 200di conversion on the Series II club forum a year or two ago. The proponents of a non-turbo conversion were saying that the non turbo 2.5L 200di provided about the same power as a stock 2.5L petrol engine. Which is about 13HP plus some additional torque better than the 2.25L engine Americans are used to. That would make it less powerful the the stock US version of the LR six cylinder petrol engine.

If the advocates are right don't expect to climb hills faster than a LR with the six cylinder engine but you get a HUGE increase in fuel mileage and an engine that will outlast the petrol versions.

It is a conversion for a massive increase in fuel economy and not so much for speed according to the advocates on the SII club forum.

[Lalo88DK]

Why a 200di minus turbo? .

The stock series drivetrain won't cope well with the extra power of a 200TDI, I know a few that have regretted fitting a 200 TDI in a Series.

I would not fit a 200TDI in a Series Land-Rover.
200Di is a much better solution, and a 200DI will last nearly for ever, but will also be a bit more noisy without the turbo.

[REDrum]

The stock series drivetrain won't cope well with the extra power of a 200TDI, I know a few that have regretted fitting a 200 TDI in a Series.

Interesting.
Which series?
What was the "won't cope" and "regret"?
What parts did the increased/HP/Tq cause to fail?
What did TDi swapped owners do to prevent failure a second time? (assuming they did not remove turbo or whole tdi..)

Thnx

[TeriAnn]

Interesting.
Which series?
What was the "won't cope" and "regret"?
What parts did the increased/HP/Tq cause to fail?
What did TDi swapped owners do to prevent failure a second time? (assuming they did not remove turbo or whole tdi..)


Probably pretty much all Series except stage I and 101's.

Won't cope means gearboxes tend to break as well as those wimpy 10 spline rear axles.

First you want a 24 spline rear axle conversion. You can get by with the stock gearbox if you are not into popping the clutch. Only problem is that the aftermarket gearbox replacement parts tend to be less than original quality. Some people with 109s install a LT77S five speed gearbox.

Some people have been known to use the stronger LT95 four speed gearbox. Others just try to be easy on the clutch with a stock box. If you do an LT95 you will probably want to swap in a Disco front axle assembly.

You just can not swap out one part of a drive train without thinking about how the new part will affect every other part. Well you can but eventually something in the rest of the drive train may well cause you to think beyond that one component you replaced. :eek:

[REDrum]

Won't cope means gearboxes tend to break Thanks, I'm looking for data on what specific gears and/or in/out shafts break? Upgrading axle shafts is a no brainer.



You just can not swap out one part of a drive train without thinking about how the new part will affect every other part. Well you can but eventually something in the rest of the drive train may well cause you to think beyond that one component you replaced. :eek:

Agreed, having been in motorsports and rally for 25 years I know all about it....

[VermontOverland]

Matt Browne at Overland Engineering (http://www.http://overlandengineering.com/) in Maine is the guru on tdi's in series trucks. He's working on my Series III tdi as I write this (installing power steering). I run a stock gearbox, a RN high ratio tcase and a 24 spline GBR rear end and the main wear point I've had is the rear driveshaft ujoint, which is a good, relatively inexpensive "fuse" for all the added power and torque.

I absolutely LOVE the tdi in the series. Incredible additional power in all conditions, but it really shines on those long highway trips. Just rips along growling away.

[REDrum]

So we have one more thing in common Peter, dark green diesel series III.


He's working on my Series III tdi as I write this (installing power steering)

I didn't know that was your's, I touched it on Tuesday....:D I'm working w/ Matt on sourcing and prepping a 200tdi for "Ticostan" Your rig set up is my goal, just with less stickers :p

Damn this is a small community.

[Skookumchuck]

My engine shiped out to me today. I am hoping to have it late next week and get started with the conversion.:D It is coming with a 300 TDI exhaust manifold which I hope will cure the steering box issue. I will be taking lots of pics as we start and get this done. Will post as we get things done.

[TeriAnn]

It is coming with a 300 TDI exhaust manifold which I hope will cure the steering box issue.

Isn't there a power steering pump mounting bracket available for the tdis?

If yes it should be easy enough to put in a RR P38 power steering box & eliminate the stock steering box.

But there is a negative side. I discovered that the manual steering was an important part of my daily upper body workout. Now days I keep a pair of dumbbells sitting next to my chair in the living room to use whilst watching TV in the evening. ;)

[Skookumchuck]

what is the cost of a p38 steerig box? The guy I bought my Rover off of has one for sale. Lugging a chainsaw around will work at keeping my beer belly to a six pack or a 24 if they are a good sale price....just finished eating a rack of smoked ribs getting ready to watch the game .:D

[TeriAnn]

what is the cost of a p38 steerig box?

It really depends. A lot of P38 RRs have been going to the wrecking yards. Depends upon what the wrecking yard asking price is. I would guess well under $100.

[Skookumchuck]

thanks the guy up here wants $700 for a brand new in the box one.

[CMorris]

I have a spare P38 set up that I would love to get out of the shop for $100.........problem is shipping, the thing weighs a ton!

[o2batsea]

Matt Browne at Overland Engineering (http://www.http://overlandengineering.com/) in Maine is the guru on tdi's in series trucks. He's working on my Series III tdi as I write this (installing power steering). I run a stock gearbox, a RN high ratio tcase and a 24 spline GBR rear end and the main wear point I've had is the rear driveshaft ujoint, which is a good, relatively inexpensive "fuse" for all the added power and torque.

I absolutely LOVE the tdi in the series. Incredible additional power in all conditions, but it really shines on those long highway trips. Just rips along growling away.

Um, he's over on GnR trying to get some answers for you just now. I replied to his post, but he may end up having to order up a bracket for ya.

As I stated earlier, the 200tdi is not a "drop in", it's major reconstruction.

[REDrum]

As I stated earlier, the 200tdi is not a "drop in", it's major reconstruction.

Do tell, what sort of "major reconstruction" have you experienced?

[o2batsea]

Do tell, what sort of "major reconstruction" have you experienced?

The 200 Tdi comes in two flavors, Defender and Disco/RRC. The Defender versions have all been poached for their intake/exhaust manifolds and finding one that hasn't is a daunting task. So, you are left with a Disco/RRC version to attempt to put into a Series.

By the way it is highly recommended that you go ahead and upgrade to a R380/Lt230 gearbox and transfer case in order to save huge amounts of headache. If you do you must purchase the short bellhousing in order for the engine to sit far enough back in the frame. You'll also have to mod the frame for the transmission mounts and probably have to remove the crossmember to make it easier to remove.
The Series gearbox is not only weaker, but the gearing is so low that you will find yourself winding it up too high on the road (like topping out the engine at 65 when you really want one more gear). Maybe the Ashcroft high ratio box is an option, but if you do that you might as well go with the R380, but I digress...

The first problem you will face is the steering if your truck is left hand steer.
The Series steering box is right where the turbo is, so one of them will have to move. Since you can't get the Defender manis, you'll best be served by converting to power steering either with the Range Rover box or a Saginaw box from a Scout. In either of those cases you will have to alter the steering column to be able to adapt it to the new steering shaft. Fortunately the 200 tdi has a PAS pump, so it isn't too big a deal once you work out the steering thing. You'l need to find a place for the reservoir and the hoses/plumbing. You also need a new track rod made.

Second issue is the cooling and intercooler for the turbo. The easiest thing is to use a Disco Tdi radiator and inter cooler as these will fit between the fenders, but the tins behind the breakfast are in the way so they must go. You should fab some sort of cross brace for the top of the radiator and for the top part of the breakfast tin to attach so that you can keep the original bonnet latch. The Bonnet prop rod can stay if you do the cross brace thing properly. Now if you are doing a 2A with lights in the breakast you will want to get the plastic buckets. Next is to find the correct fan shroud or use a Disco one with an electric puller fan (that's what I'm doing) but you'll have to modify it to take the generic fan.

You will need to redo the throttle pedal as the Tdi uses a cable type throttle pull. It may be possible to adapt the mechanical linkage, but a Defender pedal could be used if you somehow rework the mounting bracket to fit the Series footwell. I dunno I thought that it was too much and I hate the D pedal anyway so I'm doing a modified linkage.

You can keep the Series brakes, but I would at least upgrade to discs up front which is yet again a whole 'nother bunch of mods.

On to the chassis. If I am not mistaken the Series engine mounts have to come off, but I guess that depends on a lot of stuff and you may be able to keep them. If you upgrade to the R380 you will lose the cross bar for the hand brake and you will have to use one from a Defender. There may be fit problems with the front cross member and it may need to be notched.
I think you'll also find, if you go with the 5 speed, that your front floor tins are all wrong.

Exhaust. As mentioned before the turbo is a problem and with a Series frame it will hit the frame. You will need to make a small adapter to move the turbo up and away from the frame. The pipe. It can go one of two ways. You can run it out thru the wing like the Series diesels do or under the truck like on coilers. The Series frame is made for the exhaust to run outside the frame rail, so this might be the least painful way to go but will require an adapter for the turbo to pipe. A regular Series exhaust will be too restrictive so you'll have to make one up from scratch.

Lots of other little stuff like the speedo, wiring, fuel plumbing, and you'll want to add an EGT gauge and maybe a tach.

Over and above that the axles are still ten spline so you may wish to install late RRC diffas with 24 splines and the uprated axle shafts from GBR.

If that's a "drop in" to you then I guess it's a drop in.

[TeriAnn]

In addition to what o2batsea said above, the 109 has a taller frame up front than the 88. The Disco turbo and the top of the 109 frame want to occupy the same space unless you raise the engine up a little.

I have heard a rumor that the 300tdi manifolds will work with a 200tdi as well as the 300tdi cylinder head (the 200tdi head is NLA) but have not confirmed it.

A transfercase high ratio conversion is quite strong & with an otherwise stock drive train will put you at about 2650 RPM @ 65 MPH with 33 inch dia tyres.

The Roverdrive and the Heystee overdrive can easily handle the power of the tdi's.

The LT77 is not much stronger than the Series box. The LT77S is the one to get or the stronger R380. If you go with the R380 you should go with the newer 300tdi as they have the same bell housing bolt pattern.

Ashcroft transmissions makes a five speed Series adapter kit (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=83) for connecting a LT77 or R380 to a Series transfercase.

They also make part time 4WD kits for converting a LT230 to part time 4WD (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=92).

Don't forget that the gearing in a LT230 is VERY different from Series transfercase gearing. If you go to a LT230 you will need to convert to 3.45 R&P gearing.

I don't remember anyone saying a 2.25L petrol to tdi was a drop in conversion. But once done it is a heck of an improvement as long as the drive train is also addressed.

[o2batsea]

I don't remember anyone saying a 2.25L petrol to tdi was a drop in conversion. But once done it is a heck of an improvement as long as the drive train is also addressed.

Check reply #2.

I'm avoiding the whole adapting thing by switching to a coil chassis. You can keep up with the progress on D90 in the build ups section.

[Mojave Rover]

Check reply #2.

I'm avoiding the whole adapting thing by switching to a coil chassis. You can keep up with the progress on D90 in the build ups section.

I must say that this conversion is not for the faint of heart. I too was going to coil my frame to handle a pair of D1 axles to compensate for the bonus torque of the 200tdi. I spoke with Ike and had a change of heart. Less to go wrong sticking with parabolics. So I modified the axles to fit the Series. Engine mount needs to be moved four inches (100mm) forward on passengar/right side. Left is fine. Better to upgrade to the LT77, but even better to get a stubby R380. Mine was shipped from Ashcrofts and arrived in three days to Vegas... Plumbing is an issue with regard to the Intercooler. I put on a Saginaw box, so the cooler situation is moved to the right. It fits, just a little off-set towards the rear. Must have an electric fan. Picked up a Defender pedal and the mod. is easy following the post on TeriAnn's site. Issue concerns drive line. Need shafts to fit. According to those across the pond, Defender front shaft will fit, but the diameter is fairly stout. Many like to have Disco shafts modified since they are skinnier in order to lessen the opportunity of hitting the engine cross member (which also has to be modified) during articulation. Ultimately, when doing this type of an upgrade, one is not reinventing the wheel. This has been done across the Pond for quite a while. Issue for us here is the steering upgrade, it gums up the works. It just takes time and M-O-N-E-Y. Until my Rover runs, it is an extremely expensive paperweight.

[TeriAnn]

Need shafts to fit. According to those across the pond, Defender front shaft will fit, but the diameter is fairly stout.

There are lots of companies in the States that make custom drive shafts to your specification. Stock Series shafts have a short slip joint and the yolks are not high angle. You can do a lot better by going with custom shafts.

[baja gs]

Im still asking, whats so bad with the 200TDI minus the turbo? Or a 200DI. I know it wont set land speed records, but an improvement over the petrol lump. It should fit, with standard trans etc. with little modification and a rebuild should last a long time, and get great milage, and some added grunt offroad.

[REDrum]

If that's a "drop in" to you then I guess it's a drop in.

LOL....not drop in, but not major reconstruction either.

[o2batsea]

LOL....not drop in, but not major reconstruction either.

After you pass 50 years old, it is...

[east high]

We should start renaming these threads 'how do I put a Series body on to a TDi Disco?'

[I Leak Oil]

Im still asking, whats so bad with the 200TDI minus the turbo? Or a 200DI.

I don't think anyone said it's bad. It just seems to be a fair amount of work for not much perceived benefit in power. If you're after better mileage then it could be a good fit. If you're after a money savings, you'll probably have to drive it a good long time to make up for the cost of the transplant. Durability? Better than a 2.25p but again, you'll have to drive it for a very long time to make up for the difference. Cool factor? Absolutely. Good, bad or indifferent...it all depends on what YOU want out of it. Your truck, if you want a 200DI then go for it!

[Skookumchuck]

We are using a 300 manifold which moves the location of the turbo so that shouldn't be an issue. I already have the ashcroft conversion and 24 spline axels. The front disk conversion is already planned and parts ordered so that is not so bad. I would actualy like the powersteering conversion as well but will have to find the right box and parts. The rad and intercooler are from a Disco so the mods there are do able. Never new about the problem witht he gas pedal thanks for the heads up. We have a couple of parts Defenders so I will need to rob parts for that. I was told the engine mounts would fit for the 200. Did you just cut off and move or put on a new mount? The Motor and parts are showing up here this week with the works scheduled to start the following week. Even if it is a lot more work than I was origionaly led to believe it is still a major improvement in power, torque and best of best I can make my own fuel.....Driving for free:D

[SafeAirOne]

You'll be fine. You're not doing anything that hundreds of people haven't done before you.

[Skookumchuck]

I was hoping this was thecase kinda getting a little nervous reading some of the posts here. No matter what it will be worth it to not have to shift down to second and crawl up the big hills doing 20MPH with semis pissed at me.

[o2batsea]

I was hoping this was thecase kinda getting a little nervous reading some of the posts here. No matter what it will be worth it to not have to shift down to second and crawl up the big hills doing 20MPH with semis pissed at me.

Amen, brutha.

[Mojave Rover]

I was told the engine mounts would fit for the 200. Did you just cut off and move or put on a new mount?

I used the original mounts. Left side moved 4" - 100mm - forward. Right-hand side a little different approach. Still moves 4" but we had motor on hoist, lowered it into bay to ensure all was well. Tacked the right side mount to fit. That should do the trick. Of course moving things forward is important for the placement of the non-Series trans. With an LT77 or R380, without going forward, the stick encounters the seatbox. That 5th gear adds four inches to the overall length of the trans. Rearshaft pretty short as well. Offset the mount .5" higher in order not to conflict with the D1 axle diff housing fouling the lower pulley, hence tacking in place with motor in bay. I've seen some fairly grusome pics of chunks removed along pulley due to axle articulation. Also makes it easier to secure shock bolt as well, since they appear to want to share the same space. They do not, but it sure looks that way when you measure that second time. Same for left, looks like it will foul. :)

[Skookumchuck]

Thanks for the info. I am planning for now to keep the series trany with the Ascroft it should work out fairly close to the right RPM ccurve. I get up to 60-65 on the flat now witht he 2.25 gas at about 2600 RPM. Hoping to be close with the diesel just not losing power and speed on the slightes hill. So if I am using a stock series trany will I still have to move the engine mounts? I guess time will tell when we get the motor out and test fit the 200. I will be taking lots of pictures of the whole ordeal as we go and I will post them. Thanks a gain for the advice.

[Moose]

Yes, even if using the stock gearbox, you will still have to move the right side engine mount. The left can be used as is. I put a 2.5 NA diesel into my 88 last spring so when my 200Tdi shows up in a month or so I am just slightly closer to a "drop in" conversion. :D

Brett

[Skookumchuck]

Thanks just waiting now for the freight company to call when the motor is delivered.:D