Front Hubs

[Ncrover725]

I am a new owner of a 1971 series IIA 109 (Ex Mod). Last month I purchased it in Maine and drove it back to North Carolina (1002 Miles). During the trip I noticed that I was leaking a bit of fluid from one of the bolts that attaches the hub. I snugged the bolts and thought all was well. About 800 miles into the trip I realized I lost a bolt from the hub. After closer inspection two of the bolts could not be tightened because those positions on the hub were stripped out. I am guessing at some point maybe air tools were used and stripped out the threads. I have attached the photo of the front hubs and am asking for advice on 1) Is there a better / more durable hub system that can be used? 2) How does this hub work? One of the previous owners had the operating levers welded in place and I was told that is pretty common. On the hub with the missing bolts the welds have broken and move around while driving. I used duct tape to tape the levers in place while going down highway 95. I appreciate the information you guys have given me regarding my new Rover. As a previous owner of Jeeps I have lots to learn on Rovers.

[romany]

HI,

Those are called dual-matic hubs. They were fitted to Series IIs and early IIas. I have them on my 64. When functioning properly, they are very sturdy- heavy duty hubs. They operate by pulling out the levers (2 per hub) and rotating them 360 degrees and then snapping them back in place. Each lever is engraved on both sides with one side reading "lock" and one side reading "free." They obviously should always read the same on both sides (and both hubs). Welding them shut (as the PO did) is defitnately not common. I believe the company was out of Colorado but they're no longer in business. Parts can be hard to find -assuming yours are even rebuildable. I would try Ike Goss at Pangolin 4X4 in Oregon. If you can rebuild them I would because they're very good hubs and kind of unique to Series Land Rovers. I'll let others give advice on aftermarket hubs because there are lots of options out there. Good luck.

romany

[Jim-ME]

It looks like the threads are stripped in the vehicle hub and not the free wheeling (FW) hub. You will need to determine that. If it is, you can use a threaded insert (helicoil) or you can replace the vehicle hub assembly with a new or used one. I think the FW hubs aren't worth trying to fix but others may think differently. New and used FW hubs can be found or you can replace them with new or good used drive flange as originally came on the vehicle. At any rate you first need to find out if the vehicle hub is stripped out and if it is, repair or replace it.
Jim

[Terrys]

The bolts (short if just drive flanges, long if locking hubs are used) are BSF. BSF type heli-coils Are available in England, but I have never seen anyone over here carrying them. If it were me, I'd just heli-coil them for 3/8 fine thread grade 8 bolts. Well, actually, I'm lazy and probably would even do that, as I drove an 88 with only 4 bolts in both front hubs for 7 years.
I've seen plenty of striped holes in hubs, but not striped bolts

[Jim-ME]

British Tools and Fasteners has 3/8thsX20 helicoils http://www.britishfasteners.com/index.php?crn=342
They are not inexpensive. You might want to change the thread to the more common 3/8ths fine like Terry suggested.
Jim

[Terrys]

Good call Jim. I forgot about British Tools. He sold me some mighty fine Whitworth tools many moons ago. I used them alot for studs and fasteners when I was restoring Brit Bikes.
I'd still use SAE Fine heli-coils.

[LR Max]

Superwinch makes replacement hubs for series vehicles. They are about the normal price for a pair of FWH for any vehicle. They are similiar to every other hub that has come on American Jeeps and Trucks. I run superwinch. They work just fine.

Replacement might be an easier/cheaper option.

[stomper]

If it were me, I would go the warn or superwinch replacement route. The truck is not a stock concourse restoration, and I would feel better about having something that worked, and had parts readily availible if I needed them.

Helicoil those stripped hub nuts, and call it a day. Don't throw out the dualmatic hubs. You may find some rebuild parts, and can sell them to someone doing a restoration for a nice chunk of money.

[Ncrover725]

Last night I looked online for new hubs. I saw superwinch made new hubs for series rovers. I did not see any new production warn hubs. Am I correct on this? Any one know of any major drama with Superwinch hubs?

[Jim-ME]

You are correct Warn no longer makes hubs for Rovers. You will need to check with the PO to see if you need either 10 spline or 24 spline hubs. If you need 10 spline hubs, Atlantic British and DAP both sell 10 spline AVM hubs which is about the only new 10 spline hub game in town. Ike Goss (Pangolin 4X4) may have some used Warn hubs for sale.
Jim

[jac04]

Superwinch hubs are made by AVM. P/N 400405 is for the 10-spline shafts. They don't appear to be as high quality as the Warn M11 hubs, that's for sure. I had to get one of my Superwinch hubs replaced due to casting voids in the main body.

Also, the Superwinch hubs tend to leak when used with the oil-filled vintage of hubs. My hubs are greased, so I don't have any issues.

[luckyjoe]

S My hubs are greased, so I don't have any issues.

Jac04 - are you running rationalized axles?

[LR Max]

I run superwinch. No problems. They just work. I will say that the old Fairey hubs were smoother but when I think about it, I mess with those hubs MAYBE twice a month so it doesn't matter.

Oh and don't bash them into rocks TOO forcefully. They don't like that. A little rock rash here and there, no biggie but a big hit, they protest. However I would like to think that this is to be expected.

[jac04]

Jac04 - are you running rationalized axles?
I sure am!

[Ncrover725]

Being I am new to this I researched "rationalized axles" once it was brought up a few responses down in the thread. From what I read 1980 is when rationalized axles became the norm. Am I correct with this? Being I own a 1971 IIA I take it I have non rationalized axles? Is the only diference one is greased and one is lubed with oil? I saw below that the Superwinch hubs leak with non rationalized hubs. Is that a leak like a few drops or my current leak that coats the tire and the side of my truck?

[stomper]

NCRover, I am quite sure you have 10 spline axles, I recall Greg, the P.O. discussing going to a 24 spline set-up, but he sold the rover to you before he got to that wish list item.

[Ncrover725]

Stomper, I appreciate that info. I do recall him saying 10 spline and thats what I was going with for a hub purchase. Maybe I should have waited to have bought it until the upgrade was done, lol

[jac04]

Being I am new to this I researched "rationalized axles" once it was brought up a few responses down in the thread. From what I read 1980 is when rationalized axles became the norm. Am I correct with this?
Yes.


Is the only diference one is greased and one is lubed with oil?
No. Brakes became 11" fronts & 109 10" rears across the board, the wheel bearings changed to the larger bearing both inner & outer, oil catchers were incorporated, the hubs are greased, different hub seals, different stub axles, shafts with 24-spline outers, different axle to drive flange attachment, pretty sure different axle casings, and I'm sure some other stuff I can't think of right now.

[Ncrover725]

I have lots to learn

[jac04]

I have lots to learn
If you don't have rationalized axles, don't waste any brain space learing about them. I was forced to learn about them after purchasing a vehicle with them.

[Ncrover725]

Here are some new Superwinch Hubs in the pphoto I found for sale. Does anyone know what the W.B. RIES means? I have 10 spline so I am hoping these are good to go.

[jac04]

WB = wheelbase

The SE and RIES got separated somehow - should read SERIES.

[leafsprung]

Brakes became 11" fronts & 109 10" rears across the board

Ive never seen a 109 rear with 10 inch brakes. I have several LWB rationalized axles all with 11 inch brakes at the back.



If you don't have rationalized axles, don't waste any brain space learing about them.

They are actually cool. They use the same wheelbearings as F100, K5 and explorer carrier bearings and are super cheap to service/replace

[jac04]

Ive never seen a 109 rear with 10 inch brakes. I have several LWB rationalized axles all with 11 inch brakes at the back.

Oops, yeah. Sorry about that. The rear wheel cylinders are the same as the 109, not drum size.

[Ncrover725]

After doing some additional reading online I have come to the conclusion that free wheeling hubs give you an additional mile or two per gallon but are a bit less reliable than a non free wheeling hub. I think I am wiling to suck up the little bit of gas money for simplicity. I am new to rovers so please chime in if I am off here. If I was to replace my dual mattic hubs with non free wheeling what would be needed? I looked on the rovers north site and only saw rear drive flanges for sale and was confused by that. I have 10 spline axles on a 1971 ex mod IIa 109.

[Jim-ME]

The drive flanges are the same both front and rear. To convert back to the flanges you will need 2 flanges, 12 flange bolts, 12 lock washers, two flange gaskets, 2 felt washers that slip over the end of the axle,2 cotter pins for the castle nut on the end of the axle and 2 hub caps.
Jim

[Ncrover725]

Jim,
I truly appreciate the information. I am humbled every day by how much you guys know regarding the series rovers. My wife said the rover has become an obsession which I think is a good thing. Thanks again.

Bobby

[Jim-ME]

You are welcome. Rovers are actually a sickness that once you get it you will never get rid of it.
Jim

[bmohan55]

You are welcome. Rovers are actually a sickness that once you get it you will never get rid of it.
Jim

Until you run out of money....

[stomper]

The only way I know some of this stuff it to READ EVERYTHING! I read every post here on this board, and on the guns and rovers board, even if it is something I don't plan on needing. I know a bit about diesel engines, even though I don't even have one. Another great source I was turned onto is a series of old magazines called the "Aluminum Workhorse". They can be accessed on the internet through www.fourfold.org (http://www.fourfold.org).

Once you read enough, it all starts to come together in your mind. And for what it is worth, my wife thinks I am a nut, who has a love affair with my Rover. It truly is a fascinating vehicle to learn mechanics with.

[RoverForm]

"Aluminum Workhorse"
that's a quality publication right there. too bad the LROA is no longer around.