Head gasket - first big project

[2manykids4a7]

Good morning everyone.

I have been on the board a while and appreciated the input from everybody on some smaller projects, and I now find myself getting ready to tackle something larger. Up until now I have had a local mechanic/friend do most of the work on my 1975 Series III, and he was getting ready to do some more when he got called out of town for 4-6 weeks (family stuff). My schedule is usually pretty busy but I should have some free time over the next few weeks so I thought it was a good time for me to step up and see what I can do, rather than just let the rover sit. Before he left he had done a compression test and was getting no pressure in 2 cylinders so was getting ready to pull the head, hoping the problem was just the gasket and nothing more. So now I am going to try it.

I have never done anything as involved as this before. I don't know what I am doing but I feel that I follow instructions well and from what I have been told this is not a hard job (although everyone who has said that is someone I would consider more mechanically minded than me!). So I am excited to give it a go. I have a green bible and a Haynes restoration manual to guide me. I searched the forum and found little bits here and there but didn't find a write up by a newbie starting from scratch, so I thought I would document my experience here and take whatever advice people have to offer.

I had the rover bought back to my garage this morning and had just taken the bonnet off (step 1 from the green bible) when I got called in to help with homework etc. Don't know if I will get back out today.

Although I haven't done anything yet, I would be glad to hear from anyone if there are things I should be thinking of right now.

Thanks, Steve..

[SafeAirOne]

Everyone is correct--It's not THAT big a job, though it is tedious. You can expect your Rover to resist your efforts with stuff that doesn't want to come apart.

If you follow the workshop manual closely, you can't go wrong.

Some things make the job easier. Lots of folks will disagree, but I personally like to have the radiator support panel and wings out of the way, but then again, I've taken them on and off so many times, I can do it in my sleep. This is not required to pull the head.

One thing I STRONGLY recommend is to go to Wal-Mart and get a box of store-brand Zip-Loc FREEZER BAGS and a sharpie. Put EVERYTHING in the bags and LABEL THEM!! This will make life so much simpler for you or your mechanic when it comes time to reassemble.

Good luck--you'll be fine.

[2manykids4a7]

Mark,

Thanks. I will definitely make sure to store and label all the parts at each step. I also plan on taking lots of pictures as I go so that I can also keep track of what things looked like before I started taking them apart.

I'm guessing that the removal of the wings and radiator support is to give you better access to everything, right? Assuming that is the case I think I may start out with them still attached (the less stuff I touch the less stuff I can mess up!) but if during the process I find out that I am having problems I may see what it takes to remove them (aren't there a lot of little things attached to them that would have to be disconnected?).

Thanks again, Steve..

[LaneRover]

I concur with bag and label everything. I also find it VERY helpful to take pictures along the way.

I know that this next comment reeks of 'shipfitters disease' but there is a fair amount of room/access when you take the head off. I took advantage of the extra access to tighten up some hard to reach bolts neatened up some wiring etc . . .

[rwollschlager]

removing the LH wing (closest to the manifolds) will make it easier to reach all of the bolts holding on the manifolds.
If you choose to leave the radiator on the rover for this repair I highly recommend putting a thick piece of card board in front of it so it is not dented by turning wrenches and what not. Last winter I replaced my head gasket and there was no worse feeling than turning the engine on for the first time in weeks only to see the radiator spewing coolant from where I carelessly nicked it with a wrench.
Go slow, take your time, buy a nice set of feeler gauges for the tappets and a torque wrench, read the green bible, and you'll be fine. :thumb-up:

-Rob

[SafeAirOne]

...if during the process I find out that I am having problems I may see what it takes to remove them (aren't there a lot of little things attached to them that would have to be disconnected?).

Yeah, there are. The real nuissance is the wiring. Not hard, just the least-fun part. Aslo, a first-time removal or the wings and rad support is a lot more time consuming than subsequent removals because of all the stuck fasteners.

I replaced all the hardware with stainless steel 1/4-20 (coarse) fasteners that come on an off very easily.

Sad to say, but I've had my wing and rad support off enough that I've worked my removal time down to around a half an hour, and the installation to about 45 minutes (not counting re-wiring).

Again, a head can be removed without any need to pull the wings and rad support. Rob had some good advise about covering the engine-side of the radiator matrix with cardboard.

I'm not sure about the 2.25, but I was able to pull the head with the intake and exhaust manifolds still firmly attached on my 2.5.

[2manykids4a7]

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement and the advice.

Since this whole thing is a learning process for me I guess that it wouldn't hurt to see how to take off a wing, and removal of the radiator to avoid damaging it seems like a good idea too. So although it may be overkill that seems like a good route for me to go. The added bonus of seeing more of what is going on and generally getting to know the vehicle better seems to be worth the time.

I will add feeler gauges to my list, I knew I would need a torque wrench I don't have one and if funds aren't there to buy one I think that is one of the parts that the local autozone "rents".

I took a few quick photos of everything in it's present state. Click the following to go to the webshots album.

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/84/84/6/63/46/2696663460074709635saGGOd_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2696663460074709635saGGOd)

[LaneRover]

Definitely take off the wing, the radiator is your choice. If you take off the radiator you will most likely need to take off both wings.

Learning about your truck is one of the best things you can do.

[badvibes]

2many-

I just did this myself in the past couple of months. No compression in #2, turned out to be a burned, I mean scorched valve. The head was a total and could not be rebuilt, multiple cracks thru the casting. Things that worked for me.....

Pulled the head with the manifolds still attached. Didn't have to remove wings or rad support.

Collect all your new gaskets, hoses, thermostat, and studs and nuts and bolts. I changed everything out hardware-wise basically. Local fastener places were able to fix me up for that. I found it easier to remove and re-install the manifolds on a bench than on the block.

Good buddy of mine was great help in reassembling it all. It' s very convenient to have someone turning wrenches while another LR nut reads specs out of the Green Bible.

I purchased a NOS later head to replace my early dead-head. Some of the bits are metric on the later head. That was a hold up for me as I had to source a banjo bolt for the oil pipe, a hose bib for the heater hose in the head, and a piece to replace the adapter for the temp sending probe in the thermostat housing. The electical sending unit from a 200tdi was the solution for that piece. I now need to switch to an electrical temp gauge from the original mechanical gauge. Hopefully your head is OK and you don't have to spend the $ and deal with the problems I encountered.

All in all it's pretty straight forward as the previous posters have noted. It's those unforseen related problems that come up that make it a little more involved.

Jeff

[bmohan55]

Follow the "Bible" and you'll be fine (couldn't that advice apply to just about anythng?).

You will need help putting the head back on and recommend you use dowels to center the head as you set it back down on the block so no shifting occurs. If the headgasket looks good then need to chase down where you were losing compression, do a leak test on your valves. My problem was leaky valves AND a torn headgasket.

[2manykids4a7]

So I had a few minutes this afternoon and thought I would just start detaching items from the wing. I hate to admit it but I got stuck on the first thing! Actually I may not be stuck but at a minimum I didn't finish. Thought I'd start with something easy and disconnect the electrics from the lights. After cleaning off a load of mud this is what I found (I took off the lens and pulled it through to make the picture easy to take). So do I trace the wire back to find a disconnect or should this come apart somehow.

Steve..

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/83/172/6/30/47/2067630470074709635FjVOSX_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2067630470074709635FjVOSX)

[bkreutz]

There will be "bullet" connectors farther back up the harness, in the case of that particular light I think it's next to the radiator. Be careful with the connectors, they are usually corroded together, put some PB Blaster (or similar) and twist to loosen up before trying to pull them apart.

[2manykids4a7]

Thanks Gale. After cleaning off all the crud I saw the screw fitting and thought I had it but after unscrewing it and finding the rubber bung I realised I needed to look elsewhere. A cursory look at the lamp end made me think it should be left alone and tracing the wire back was the next step. Knowing what I am looking for is helpful.

Edit: I guess I should stop assuming (we all know what that does) and read my bible more! Section 86.40.42 and step 4 reads, "Thou shalt disconnect the lamp leads at the snap connectors in the engine compartment". Lesson learned.

[SafeAirOne]

Not sure about military rovers, but on normal ones, all the wiring connections for both wings and the ground for all the front lights is right behind the grille, in front of the radiator, up where the hood latch is on normal rovers.

Grenreally, behind the grille, you separate all the wires by side (left and right) then you feed them out the holes in the radiator support panel so that they dangle from both inner wings.

[JimCT]

I have done a head gasket with the help of and air ratchet and one mechanic friend and a case of beer, 2 hours start to finish. If you are just doing the head gasket leave the manifolds on, you won't have to mess with a fender. Three nuts on the exhaust and you are free.

[AU_88]

Replacing the bolts with SS would be good too... I plan on doing that and if I'm feeling nice I may try and list all the bolts needed...

[2manykids4a7]

Thanks everyone. I don't think I will be done in 2 hours, no mechanic friend or air tools!

Since I am viewing this as both a repair and a get to know my rover experience, taking off the grill and the wing seem to be a good place to start. I had some time this afternoon and took out the radiator.

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/85/85/0/65/63/2798065630074709635oVkhqb_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2798065630074709635oVkhqb)

It is a little dinged up but I wasn't having any problems with it, maybe I should get it looked over while it is out (pics are in the webshots album). One of the books I had said I could take off the fan to avoid damaging the radiator so I did that and it made removing it pretty straight forward.

I still have what I think is the oil cooler to remove. I haven't looked it up yet but I guess that similar to the radiator I drain the oil and then unbolt everything.

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/85/85/9/67/78/2702967780074709635VYBWqM_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2702967780074709635VYBWqM)

I think I may have the most trouble with the actual grill assembly. At some point an awful paint job was added over the beautiful original green and all the screws, bolts etc were just painted over.

[SafeAirOne]

Another tip...

If you are planning on removing the radiator, the radiator support panel (the whole center (nose) of the rover), and the wings, it is easier to leave the radiator attached to the radiator support panel and remove them as a unit after the wings are off.

[2manykids4a7]

Good to know. For right now I don't mind taking it apart piece by piece, but for future projects I will remember that it can all come out together. My plan (if possible) is to remove the rest of the front grill and then just the wing on the manifold side (passenger side for me).

[2manykids4a7]

I was getting ready to drain the oil so I could take out the oil cooler when I had the following thought.

Am I was shooting myself in the foot for later on by draining the oil now (so I can take out the oil cooler). Am I going to want oil in the engine later when I take the head off? Are there circumstances that could arise where taking the oil cooler (as part of the grill) out, while giving me more room to work, is actually going to hurt more than help?

I may be displaying my ignorance here but I'd rather do that now than later!

As always any advice is most welcome.

[SafeAirOne]

It has been my experience that draining the oil out of the sump does little to drain the oil from the cooler. It'll still be full and will still make a huge mess when you remove the cooler.

Mind you, my experience has been with a 2.5 oil cooler with the thermostatic valve on a diesel engine, so even just a little sooty, black oil from a diesel constitutes a huge mess.

[2manykids4a7]

Progress! The grill is off, and though unnecessary I really like the room it gives me.

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/84/84/2/20/94/2243220940074709635UiOyfO_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2243220940074709635UiOyfO)

I broke one bolt.

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/85/85/2/98/89/2926298890074709635KYpgtq_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2926298890074709635KYpgtq)

I'm still trying to undo the nut here, soaking in PB Blaster right now, any better ideas? It is on the pipe that led to the top of my oil cooler, you can see the other end in the first photo just in front of the top pulley (that I took the fan off of). I'd really like it off so the pipe isn't just floating there waiting for me to damage it.

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/84/84/7/19/35/2693719350074709635hLxlgF_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2693719350074709635hLxlgF)

I'm now turning my attention to the wing which is proving difficult due to some sort of coating a previous owner had sprayed over everything (bolt and screw heads included) on the underside of the truck. The following pictures show where a big chunk came off when I removed the bolts at the top of the mud shield and my (as yet unsuccessful) attempt to get at the screws holding the bottom of the mud shield off.

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/83/172/7/52/14/2728752140074709635iNqjmF_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2728752140074709635iNqjmF) http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/84/84/4/51/67/2595451670074709635GKQPfr_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2595451670074709635GKQPfr)

Has anyone had any success beating this stuff with any means other than brute force?

Thanks Steve..

[SafeAirOne]

Hmm... My splash guards are held on by nuts and bolts, not screws and nuts. That just plain stinks. Nothing worse than slotted screws. I'd recommend a grinder personally.

Oh--I know it's too late, but you don't need to disconnect the top of the splash guards to get the wings off. It can just dangle.

As for your oil cooler line--Hmm. That b-nut looks pretty solidly stuck to the line. You can hold the bulkhead fitting with a wrench and turn the b-nut, but if the nut is stuck to the line, you're just going to twist the line into a pretzel. Of course, you already know that or else you wouldn't be asking...

Can you just disconnect the line from the other end and pull the whole shabang as one unit?

[JimCT]

Changing a had gasket should me a 2 o 3 hour job at best, not sure why you are taking your LR apart? Does not make the head job any easier.

[2manykids4a7]

Mark. The screws do stink, I may try using my Dremel to give me room to get a bigger screwdriver on there. Whatever happens I do plan on not using the screws again and replacing with bolts.

I'm following the wing removal instructions in one of my Haynes manuals so may end up doing more than necessary. I am not too worried about it though since I have a huge hole in the floor pan on that side and fixing that is on the to do list. A previous owner put in a rigid plastic patch to cover it! I figure what I am doing now will just make life easier on that future project.

The oil cooler line is a bit of a pain, I can remove the bracket it goes through and maybe able to then disconnect it further down the line. I will take a look. Who knows maybe it has loosened up overnight (fingers crossed).

[2manykids4a7]

JimCT. I guess my post title is a little misleading since right now I haven't touched the head! When I first posted there were various replies about removing the wings and grill, no-one said it was completely necessary but that they found it helpful. Since I am not under time pressure I decided I would take that route too. For me the added benefits of more room to work, getting to see the engine more clearly and making future projects (like fixing the hole in the floor pan) easier made it worth it. I will get to the head though, and then probably take considerably longer than 3 hours!

[LaneRover]

Oh, and the 'previous owner' you speak of is the Ministry of Defense.

My 109 P-up as the stuff all over the underneath of it.

[2manykids4a7]

LaneRover. Good point, I hadn't even thought that far back! The truck was apparently originally South African military.

One of the screws on the mudshield is out but the other is still resisting, along with a few others holding various things to the wing. In my oil cooler post someone suggested using a little heat to loosen them up. So I am considering getting a small blow torch and giving that a go. As I said in that post though, to a novice, the thought of an open flame in close proximity to flammable liquids and gases makes me a little jumpy.

If all else fails I guess the grinder will get some work!

[stomper]

You are more likely to burn yourself with that torch than start a fire. don't worry about gas and other flamables. just don't go and touch the bolt after you have heated it up.:thumb-up:

[2manykids4a7]

Thanks stomper. That's what I needed to hear, obviously I don't plan on burning myself but what I really didn't want was to start a fire! I took a quick look and the torch I remember my friend using was one like this..

http://www.lowes.com/pd_148755-13877-309272_0__?productId=3130885&Ntt=torch&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dtorch&facetInfo=

But there also seem to be mini versions like this

http://www.harborfreight.com/micro-torch-42099.html

(and obviously you can get both at the cheaper or more expensive ends of the spectrum).

It may make no difference as heat is heat but what do you guys use when you want to heat up a bolt to loosen it up?

[slorocco]

I tend to use one like the Lowes picture but with a piezo electric lighter on is so you can just light it with one hand when needed. A bit more expensive but much more convenient.

[amcordo]

Awesome post to follow!

If using a torch have a fire extinguisher nearby (you should have a good one in a rover at all times anyway).

Also, you mentioned Dremmel. I have one of those and it's good for a few jobs, but make sure you go out and spend $30 at Lowes for a full size power grinder. You'll love it whenever you have to take anything apart on the Rover.

[2manykids4a7]

slorocco. Thanks for the tip. I picked up one of these this morning.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_299446-717-2880088_0__?productId=3133747&Ntt=torch&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dtorch&facetInfo=

Tony. I'm glad that you are enjoying following the post. Doing something like this for the first time, I find the advice and the moral support from everyone both helpful and encouraging. I will have both the Rover and the house fire extinguishers close at hand. I do have a power grinder that if necessary I don't mind putting to use. I do plan on replacing all the nuts and bolts etc, so if I can keep as many intact on the way out as possible, I think that will help me when getting new ones to match.

Not sure when I will have a chance to try out the new tool. Work is fairly busy right now and the kids have stuff all weekend.

[2manykids4a7]

Progress!

Had some time this morning and with the help of the torch to loosen the more stubborn bolts the wing is now off. I now have plenty of room to get to the head and start in on that.

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/82/482/1/83/3/2388183030074709635anQGTo_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2388183030074709635anQGTo) http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/87/187/6/3/64/2403603640074709635rjgGfJ_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2403603640074709635rjgGfJ)

Although this was not completely necessary I am glad that I have done it. At some point I will be taking the wing off again in order to repair some rust in the bulkhead and may even be replacing the wing itself. The rust can be seen here.

http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/85/85/0/86/72/2501086720074709635lpKFOy_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2501086720074709635lpKFOy) http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/82/482/8/24/33/2336824330074709635DzNkeD_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2336824330074709635DzNkeD)

The only bolt that I was not able to get undone was on the lower pipe from the oil cooler but I was able to take off the bracket and detach the whole thing at the oil pan. I assume that this will not cause me any problems so long as remember to put oil back once everything is done!

Next step is to get stuck into the originally planned head gasket job.

If anyone has any input or comments at this stage I am more than happy to hear what you think.

[2manykids4a7]

Having followed the manual and enjoyed all the room and easy accessibility that the removal of the wing and grill afforded me, I feel I made real progress.

The head is off and here is what I found!

http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/48703/2742430430074709635S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2742430430074709635cAhGrZ)

If you click the photo there are other various angles of the head (plus step by step pics of the process to get to this point).

Even a complete novice like me can see the blown head gasket but is there anything else that I should be looking for?

I may be displaying my ignorance here but should I be concerned about the fact that 3 of the cylinders are a dark grey while the other is all nice and shiny?

Now that I am here and I am going to be ordering parts, what other things make sense to do now?

As of right now my plan is to replace the gasket and put everything back together with new hardware whenever possible, but I am very welcome to hear thoughts on other things that should be done.

Thanks, Steve..

[SafeAirOne]

I may be displaying my ignorance here but should I be concerned about the fact that 3 of the cylinders are a dark grey while the other is all nice and shiny?


That's probably the piston that was getting a regular steam cleaning by the coolant.

[siii8873]

Just completed a head job on my SIII. I took the head to an engine rebuilder and had it shaved flat and a valve job. Should at least have it checked for warpage.

[2manykids4a7]

That's probably the piston that was getting a regular steam cleaning by the coolant.

That makes sense. Thanks. Is there any point in trying to "clean" the other cylinders while I have access? Or would this just make it pretty to look at right now, but once it is back together it will make no difference at all.

[2manykids4a7]

Just completed a head job on my SIII. I took the head to an engine rebuilder and had it shaved flat and a valve job. Should at least have it checked for warpage.

Thanks. Good idea. This is the sort of advice that really helps me. I have time right now so if I can make sure I have covered all my bases before reassembly I would like to do as much as possible.

If anyone else has other recommendations please chime in.
Are there other parts I should replace while I am here (new gaskets etc.)?
Any other little jobs that now is the time to take care of?

[SafeAirOne]

That makes sense. Thanks. Is there any point in trying to "clean" the other cylinders while I have access? Or would this just make it pretty to look at right now, but once it is back together it will make no difference at all.

I personally wouldn't bother. I'd just take a good look at them to make sure there isnt anything obviously abnormal with them (cracks, melted spots, damage, etc.)

[2manykids4a7]

I now need to buy the parts to actually repair this thing rather than just leave it all in pieces! So here is my latest set of questions.

1. Head gasket - Genuine part or not? I assume the genuine is the copper one like the one that is on there and my gut says go with that but I'm open to opinions.

2. Other gaskets - What should I do? Buy a set (genuine or not)? Get individuals as I see fit? Use something else (I have read various posts about hylomar etc.)?

3. The only part I broke that I cannot simply replace from the local hardware store is this one (not sure exactly what to call it).

http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/48648/2926298890074709635S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2926298890074709635KYpgtq)

It is part 13 in the following diagram

http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/46322/2448325790074709635S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2448325790074709635fzCBKF)

I couldn't find it when looking in the parts section from RN. Does anyone have a good source?

Thanks, Steve..

[bkreutz]

I usually get a gasket set, every time I try to "individualize" it I end up forgetting one (or more:D) and then have to either make one or wait until one arrives. Hylomar... I only use this for metal to metal sealing, I use Ultra Black, or #3 Permatex every where else. I've always used Genuine gaskets, but that's probably a holdover from the days I worked for the dealer.

[2manykids4a7]

OK so it is time for another one of those questions that I feel like I should know the answer to but don't so I'm going to ask it based once again on the principle that it is better to look like a fool now rather than later!

Do I need to replace all the different gaskets?

In my mind I have a sort of hybrid plan where I spend the extra to replace the head gasket with a genuine part (does that mean it will be copper like the one that blew?) and then buy a complete set of all the other gaskets (the cheaper non-genuine ones) and replace the ones that don't look so good while leaving the better looking ones alone.

As always I am open to anyone's thoughts on the wisdom/foolishness of this idea.

Steve..

[SafeAirOne]

How many gaskets did you disturb?

Off the top of my head, I can only think of a few that NEED replacing when you remove the head--Head gasket, oil feed pipe (all 4), rocker cover, and either intake/exhaust or exhaust/downpipe, depending on which method you used during disassembly.

Did I miss any?

If you go with a copper head gasket, you might consider ordering 2 rocker cover gaskets, since you'll need to re-torque the head bolts and the rocker cover gasket is often a single-use item.

Also, composite head gaskets are available for the 2.25 petrol. If you use a composite head gasket, check with your parts supplier to see whether you need to use the thick (~3mm, IIRC) hardened washers under the head bolts (if you aren't already using them).

[siii8873]

I ran my truck for the first time after I completed a head job :D because of a blown head gasket
I had it inspected by a motor shop, ended up having it shaved, valves and seats ground, seals, and exhaust guides replaced per recommendation from shop.
I will say this made a big difference in the engine performance, well worth it!!