2.25 not firing 3&4 ?

[Lance]

I am working on a 1967 109 staton wagon. It has the stock 2.25 engine. It was running great then out of nowhere it started running only on #1 & 2. If I remove the plug wires on 3&4 cylinders it doesn't make any difference. I have tried almost everything I can think of to make it run on all 4. The head is rebuilt...new valves,guides,seals,& exhaust seats. Honed the cylinders & installed new rings. Adjusted the valves like the book says. I have compression & spark. I have two distributors...the original Lucas with a pertronics & a new one with points(this is the one that was in the engine when it started running bad). Nothing changes with either one. I static timed it like the book says, TDS on flywheel both valves closed dissy rotor pointing to #1 BUT when I put my adjustable timing light on it I have to move the knob on the timing light 40 degrees to see the timing marks????
Could the gear between the cam & dissy jump a tooth? Also what is the grub screw & what does it do?
I just about out of ideas.:confused:

[jopa]

Lance...Ive read your post elsewhere too...few things to consider. Its either in the distributors or the cam/crank timing..
Check to make sure you are getting spark at the 3rd and 4th plug- pull them- connect to the wire and turn the engine over by the ignition- is there any spark?...if no then its the distributor or leads or plugs...

If yes- then look at your timing- not the light on the crank but---cam to crank.
Take all the plugs out and by hand turn the the engine over slowly- are all of your valves opening and closing as they should? Next then check to make sure the cam to crank are properly timed to each other

- use a skinny screw driver or piece of coat hanger to feel the #1 piston rise on the compression stroke- watch your valves carefully- exhaust valve should not open until the piston has reached the top- not before and not after...this will tell you if the timing chain has jumped a tooth from stretching...it will throw all your timing off. The chains do stretch...Good luck- John

[siii8873]

I had this same problem. It was blown head gasket. If you have a spark on both cylinders check your compression also, you may find it low on 3 & 4 if it is a blow gasket.

[SafeAirOne]

...pull [the plugs]- connect to the wire and turn the engine over by the ignition- is there any spark


Note that you have to ground the outer spark plug shell in order to get a spark.

[Broadstone]

I had this same problem. It was blown head gasket. If you have a spark on both cylinders check your compression also, you may find it low on 3 & 4 if it is a blow gasket.

I agree. If both plugs fire its the head gasket. I too had the same problem.

[Apis Mellifera]

In your testing, have you substituted the distributor cap and/or the plug wires. You have confirmed that you've got the firing order correct?

[Lance]

I have tried new wires,car & rotor. I am starting to believe that the timing belt has jumped. In the manual it says/shows the dissy drive gear 20 degrees from a bolt hole on the triangle that hold the dissy. I have 40 degrees. 20 degress too much. Could that cause these cylinders to not fire???

[Apis Mellifera]

No timing belt in a Series. It's a chain. For it to jump, there would have to be some pretty unusual/destructive circumstances and none of the cylinders would fire. What's pretty common is to reverse 3 and 4 when installing the plug wires.

The drive gear is located only because the distributor only goes in one way and to make sure the vacuum advance unit doesn't foul throughout the adjustment range. In fact, you could rotate the distributor 180 degrees and as long as the wires are in order, the truck will run. It doesn't care whether there's 20 or 40 degrees, the engine wants the spark at the right time. In your case, the distributor would just need to be rotated 20 degrees in "the right" direction, but again, those references are arbitrary.

For kicks, flip the 3/4 plug wires. If that doesn't work, make sure they're sparking. Next, I'd check compression. If the valves are too tight or the head gasket is blown, that will show the compression loss.

[Lance]

The head gasket is brand new, just rebuilt the head. I have 120 psi on all four cylinders. Rings are new. I have compression with plugs out of all the cylinders & with plugs in except for the one I'm checking. I have compression with the motor running & the compression tester on. I have adjusted the valves as per the manual, they are all about .010/.011. They look like they are moving when they should. I am getting spark to those plugs.
I'm just not sure how could it fire 1&2 but not 3&4. This problem started all by it's self. one day it was fine the next day no worky. The head needed rebuilding anyway so I thought now is the time so I could check the head gasket.
Thanks for the ideas...keep um comin. I'm going to find it!
I'm thinking of pulling the timing chain cover & check the chain, the front main seal leaks anyway so maybe I can kill two birds with one stone.

[SafeAirOne]

Don't know if you ever got an answer, but the grub (skew gear bush retaining) screw, which threads into the block under the oil filter adapter, keeps the skew gear correctly engaged with the gear on the camshaft and prevents any movement of the skew gear assembly in its bore.

Generally, in order for the skew gear to become disengaged from the gear on the camshaft, the whole skew gear assembly would have to rise up in its bore about 1/2" to 3/4" (along with the ignition distributor assembly) then settle back down in place and re-engage the oil pump drive shaft splines.

IIRC, without a grub screw, the skew gear naturally wants to rise when the camshaft turns because of the cut of the skew and camshaft gears.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6059/6318432977_7be8660d51_b.jpg

[Lance]

I never did get a answer to the screw gear....thanks so much. That helps a lot. Probably not that if it would have to move that much. Think I will pull the timing chain cover next.
Thanks for the pic & info. Big help!
I have only owned this a few months, need to learn.

[bkreutz]

I don't know what pulling the timing cover will tell you, any problem with things in there would affect all 4 cylinders the same, the cam timing would either be correct or incorrect for all the cylinders. Looking over your last post, you say you have compression on all 4 cylinders and spark on all 4 cylinders. That only (at least in my mind) leaves 2 things, spark at the correct time (re read some of the earlier posts about crossed plug wires) or fuel. If you have fuel, compression and spark at the proper time it will fire. Is it possible that something in the intake is blocking the back two cylinders preventing the fuel/air mixture from getting there? The reason I ask is that years ago I ran into a similar problem and found a shop rag had been left in the intake manifold during a repair and it was blocking off a couple of cylinders.

[Lance]

I just put the manifold back on a couple weeks ago when I put the head back on. I didn't run a wire or anything through the manifold so I quess there could be something in there but I think I would have noticed plus this problem started all on it's own. I might take it back off, at this point it won't hurt & isn't that hard to do. I agree that pulling the timing cover may not help but I really don't know what elase to do Plus I don't understand if I set everything on TDS #1 then start the motor and put my timing light on it I don't see any timing marks. I thought I should see TDS on the flywheel? I have to adjust my timing light 40 degrees to see the timing marks???

[SafeAirOne]

I agree that it's unusual to have a sudden MECHANICAL issue where the rear 2 cylinders don't operate.

Not to be insulting, but are you sure the timing light is on the #1 plug wire and the firing order is correct? If you put the timing light on the other wires, does the timing mark on the flywheel come closer to the pointer?

I still think it's an electrical issue in the primary or secondary ignition circuit/components.

[Apis Mellifera]

The dynamic timing may be near 40 degrees. You have initial static timing, which is what you measure on the crank pulley or flywheel, and you have the mechanical timing provided by the distributor. To find out what the distributor timing is you take the points plate off and look at the weights. There will be a number stamped on them, say 15. Multiply that by 2 and add the static timing of, say, 10 and you'd have 40 degrees total. It's possible the small springs inside the distributor broke, producing max mechanical advance at all times.

http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0015.html

That might help my explanation.

That said, as was mentioned, given the info you've provided, anything timing related that suddenly happened would have caused all cylinders to misfire. Humor us and simply switch 3 and 4 plug wires to see if that does anything. If that doesn't help, and as you said, you have spark and compression on 3 and 4, it has to be inlet related. I can't think of anything else that could produce the same results based on your tests.

The valves are working
The valves are gapped
There is spark
There is compression
The front two cylinders are working properly
The misfire was sudden
The firing order was checked

This doesn't add up to a misfire on 3 and 4 - I'm stumped.

Just to be sure, your wires should be CCW 1-3-4-2... You can get it backward and still have two cylinders correct.

[Lance]

Don't worry about insulting me, I'm pleased to have you guys helping. I soooo want to fix this and go for a drive! I put the timing light on the front plug wire closest plug to the front of the vehicle. I didn't try putting it on other plugs but I will just to see what happens. The dissy rotates counter clockwise. Firing order is 1 3 4 2. I have #1 wire going to the top front (right) plug on the cap, then going counter clock wise next is 3 4 2.

[Apis Mellifera]

Well, in that case, try starting it up and spraying the inlet manifold around 3 and 4 runners with WD40 or some such. Could be a massive vacuum leak. If that's the problem the exhaust note will change. If you use spray ether, just use short blasts.

If that's not it, I give up.

[Lance]

OK I put the timing light on all the wires #1 & 4 both look the same on the flywheel, the timing marks are there. I switched wires 3&4. Putting 3 on 4 & 4 on 3 (getting zapped in the process....I have good spark:thumb-up:). Still no change. I haven't started it in a few days and it is very cold here now some I needed a lot of choke to get it started, I don't think it was my imagination it sounded pretty good like running on all 4 but then it went away & back to two?

[Apis Mellifera]

Since you're switching wires try these configurations (looking at the cap):
31
42

12
34

24
13

43
21

[Lance]

Will do, won't be able to try this until tuesday. Had to call it a day.
Thanks for the help.

[Lance]

Don't know if anyone is still out there but I think I'm on to something.
Yesterday I was working on the Rover again & found that if I unplug spark plug wires 1&2 then 3&4 will fire BUT when I do this I get a spark that is jumping from the valve cover to anything grounded! If I plug 1&2 back on then 3&4 stop firing the spark goes away & 1&2 start firing. Something shorted??? where to look??? I have swapped dissy with spare but that doesn't change anything.

[SafeAirOne]

I'd change the plugs and wires and probably the rotor and cap too. Then you've eliminated any leakage anywhere in the secondary circuit.

[albersj51]

I agree with Mark. It sounds like really bad plug wires.

[Nium]

Is the ground strap from engine to chassis sound?

[Lance]

I will check the ground strap.

[Apis Mellifera]

I suggested cap, wires and rotor in post 6. In post 7 he said he's already replaced them.

I've heard that if the coil is wired backward it will do strange things spark-wise. Also, there is an arch from the valve cover to ground? Isn't the valve cover either grounded already or if the gaskets are in good condition, isolated completely?

[Lance]

I'll try reversing the wires on the coil. Almost seems like something is drawing the coil down. Has enough spark for two plugs, Pull wires off 1&2 then 3&4 work.
From earth to negative side of coil has steady 10 volts. Positive side of coil has 13 volts. Across coil (neg. to pos.) I have 4.5 volts. Does that sound normal?

[Apis Mellifera]

Assuming the truck is negative ground, you should have battery voltage on the + side of the coil and the - side should go to the points. I'm not sure what to make of the voltages you've provided, but it doesn't sound right.

I think I would completely bypass the wiring harness. Disconnect the low tension coil wires. Jumper from battery + to coil +. Jumper from coil - to points. Start truck then turn off key. The truck should still run, but you will have (hopefully/in a normal truck) disabled all switched 12V. This will isolate it as either a wiring problem or a distributor problem.

At this point, I'm leaning toward an improperly isolated points set, which is easy to do, or some other fault inside the distributor.

You say that it will run either on 1 and 2 or 3 and 4. Will it run or 1 and 3 or 4 or 2 and 3 or 4?

[Lance]

Just tried both of your suggestions. It will run on different combos of wire configurations even on one cylinder. Connected coil so it was off the harness straight to the battery, switch off. No change???
Seems to run on any two cylinders, doesn't matter which two but only two??

[SafeAirOne]

Hmm...How'd that engine-to-chassis ground strap check out? Did you clean off the contact surfaces so you're sure you have a good, conductive path?

[Lance]

I don't have a ground strap from chassis to the motor but the neg. from the battery goes straight to the engine. We just cleaned it, was pretty greasy. Should it have one from the motor to the chassis?

[Lance]

What voltages do you guys get if you put your meter across pos. & neg. terminals while running. Mine stays at 4.5 volts...very steady.
When I do the same measurment on an old jeep I have, the voltage jumps around very fast/unstable voltage.

[Nium]

One side of the battery should be connected to the chassis directly next to the battery by a short thick piece of wire. If your rig is positive earth then the "+" terminal of the battery will be connected to the chassis and the negative side of the battery will go to the starter solenoid. If it's negative earth then the "-" side of the battery will be connected to the chassis and the positive side of the battery will be connected to the starter solenoid.

The chassis is suppose to be the "earth" connection point for all electrical "ground" connections. Using "earth" and "ground" is a bit of a misnomer here because there is technically no connection to earth or the ground in an automotive DC electrical system but since it's the commonly accepted terminology lets go with it. Modern vehicles and Landys from negative earth make onwards use the chassis as the negative connection point to the battery and the "hot" or positive connection point to the various electrical components (lights, windshield wipers, ignition coil, etc) are made through the starter solenoid, to the fuse block, to the ignition switch and outwards from there.

If the only connection to the "earth" side of the battery is to the engine that would mean that the rest of the electrical system in the rig is isolated from the "earth" side of the battery except for the electrical path of least resistance back to the "earth" side of the battery. Which could be through the accelerator linkage, ignition coil, etc. because the engine is electrically isolated from the chassis by the rubber motor mounts. If you have the Green Bible (part # AKM8159) please refer to page 38-N figure "Fig. N1-28 Layout of general electrical equipment, negative earth systems. Series IIA 4 cylinder models. From vehicle suffix 'D' onwards" you will notice "Item 14. Lead, starter motor to earth" and "Item 20. Cable, battery to earth".

I would suspect there use to be some sort of bonding strap from the engine to chassis or transmission to chassis (which wouldn't work nearly as well) a PO had installed that has broken since you had reported your issue started all of a sudden and not slowly.

To make the long of it short. Yes, there should be an electrical bonding strap from the engine (one of the starter mounting bolts for example) to the chassis and the "earth" side of the battery should be attached to a clean, bare spot on the chassis next to the battery.

As a quick experiment to check if this could be the root cause of your troubles attach one clip (the black) of a set of jumper cables to a bare spot of metal on the engine (away from the fan or moving parts) and the corresponding lead (black one) at the other end of the cables to a clean, unpainted piece of metal on the chassis. See if it causes your issues to go away. If yes then you definitely need to install an engine to chassis bonding strap or reroute how the battery connects to the chassis.

If I wrote things that you already knew my apologies.

Cheers!

[Lance]

I have a couple grounding straps here in the garage that I bought for something else but never used. I will install one this week if possible. (almost limited to weekends now).
I have seen a few guys refer to "The Green Bible". Is this better than the Hatnes manual?
Thanks for the help.

[Lance]

I attached a ground strap to a tab on the battery tray between the battery & oil bath air filter. Looks like it was made for it. The strap that was on the Rover is long and had a bolt hole in the middle, worked out perfect to ground the chassis & motor with one strap. Still didn't fix anything but it needed that anyway.

[SafeAirOne]

Have you considered an exorcism?

[Lance]

No but I have thought about pushing it off a cliff !

[yorker]

No but I have thought about pushing it off a cliff !
Haven't we all? ;)

FWIW I run a ground strap to the chassis and to the engine from the battery, I know it is overkill but I have always felt that extra grounds aren't a bad thing.

[bmohan55]

If you do an exsorcism won't that just drive out "The Prince of Darkness", which would lead to more troubles?

[Nium]

Disconnect the wires to the coil and measure the coil resistance from "+" to "-" terminals on the coil. Would have been nice if the ground strap had fixed it.

With the coil wires all connected and the engine not running but the ignition turned on.

With the points closed you shouldn't measure any voltage on the distributor side of the coil to ground and battery voltage from the other side of the coil to ground.

With the points open you should measure battery voltage on the distributor side of the coil to ground, may have to leave the DMM on the post for a few seconds to see it, and battery voltage from the other side of the coil to ground.

[Lance]

I have checked the coil resistance, it is a "Flame Thrower" that I bought with the pertronics....the resistance is 3.0 ohms. I'll check the voltage across the points.
Also I'll through this out there to think about. This has happened twice, In the morning when it's cold I need full choke and pump the pedal a few times. When it starts it sounds pretty good for about 10 seconds then it's back to misfiring again & then thats it for the rest of the day.

[Lance]

I do have battery voltage when points are open & .25 when closed.

[Apis Mellifera]

Hang on...do you have points or a Pertronix?

You say that you need to choke it to start it then it runs for 10 seconds then misfires the rest of the day. Are you making choke adjustments? Are you driving the truck with the choke on all day? Does the misfire change with choke adjustments? You also say it's not firing on 3 and 4. Are you driving the truck on two cylinders?

[Lance]

I am not driving, haven't driven in months & the choke is used just to start it in the morning for my day of troubleshooting:sly:. I have two distributors, the old lucas with pertronics & a new one with points. The points distributor is in it now but I have tried the pertronics a few times thats why the flame thrower coil, I figured I would buy the pertronics & new coil at the same time.
It will run on 3&4 if I unplug 1&2. In my troubleshooting I have found it will run on any two cylinders but only two ???

[Apis Mellifera]

Have you changed the coil since this started or are you still using the Pertronix?

[Lance]

I changed the coil awhile ago, I have other coils I can try.
I'm totally out of ideas. I have talked to the Land Rover dealer about it but I have my doubts that they will find anything, they work on all new stuff & at $135.00 per hour it will get real expensive real fast. Would they have magic equipment that could diagnos this?

[stomper]

I would stay away from the dealer on this issue. you are better off finding an older gentleman who owns an independent garage. Dealer technicians don't seem to know how to diagnose anything that doesn't have a computer port on it, and they are only capable of swapping out parts, not always fixing the problem.

Search the yellow pages for a classic car shop or a british car shop in your area.

[Lance]

I just checked compression again & it looks like to me that my compression is going down from when I checked it a few weeks ago??? The head is newly rebuilt, the cylinders honed with new rings. The readings I got today are the lowest I have seen. #1=110 #2=110 #3=118 #4=110 seems really low to me. Do the new rings need to break in?

[albersj51]

Its my understanding that yes, the rings do need to seat in the bore before they seal properly.

[mongoswede]

I just checked compression again & it looks like to me that my compression is going down from when I checked it a few weeks ago??? The head is newly rebuilt, the cylinders honed with new rings. The readings I got today are the lowest I have seen. #1=110 #2=110 #3=118 #4=110 seems really low to me. Do the new rings need to break in?

the purpose of honing is to apply a cross hatch pattern to the cylinder walls. The cross hatch is a roughing of the cylinder walls that is designed help wear the rings to the cylinder walls. I have heard all sorts of break in procedures for newly rebuilt engines. have you done any sort of break in on your new engine?

[Lance]

No, I have only run it a few hours in the driveway but the compression is less then it was when I first put it back together. I just thought 110 was low for new rings but I really don't know.

[albersj51]

If I'm wrong someone will correct me. as I understand, you won't get optimal compression until the rings are fully and properly seated. Also, there was a thread on GnR about checking compression on these motors, may want to check it out.
http://siteground237.com/~gunsandr/showthread.php?1247-Compression-Numbers

Also, you dont want to idle the engine to break it in, you want to drive it under different RPMs so the rings will seat.

Best of luck.

[SafeAirOne]

Also, you dont want to idle the engine to break it in, you want to drive it under different RPMs so the rings will seat.

I agree--Find out how to properly break in an engine and follow those procedures closely. Doing it improperly could have a lasting effect on an engine's health and lifespan. Varying the RPMs is only one aspect of a proper break-in. There are other factors including pressure that you can't duplicate on an ordinary engine test stand (or sitting in an unfinished chassis).

[Terrys]

I only skimmed the first 4 pages, but it sounds like you haven't found the problem. I can say with some certainty that it has nothing to do with your cam, jumping timing or whatever. My initial thought was blown head gasket between 3&4, but your compressions are good. If you have spark at the plug wires,and it's running on 1&2, but it's not running on 3&4, I'd look to see if those 2 plugs are fouled.

[Lance]

Sounds good, Even though it isn't running good & is very weak on power right now I don't see any reason why I couldn't drive it on short local trips to help break it in. Any thoughts.

[mongoswede]

Sounds good, Even though it isn't running good & is very weak on power right now I don't see any reason why I couldn't drive it on short local trips to help break it in. Any thoughts.

vary the rpm and use the full rpm range. dont sit at any one rpm for a long time. after the first 500 miles change the oil.

[Lance]

It is Fixed !!!!!!! The short of it is there was a leak in the bottom of the intake manifold where the exhaust preheats the intake air. The fix was to make a plate between the two manifolds. Basiclly isolating the two. Thats it! Thanks to all of you guys for helping me. Cant wait to drive it, it's been months!! Just in time for the snow!

[SafeAirOne]

A leak caused spark plugs #3 and 4 to not spark unless you disconnected plugs #1 & 2 ?????

[Lance]

3&4 had spark but would not fire (ignite), when I pulled the wires off of those cylinders it never changed but I had good spark. I had everything it needed to run but it just wouldn't run. The hole (I never found it) is inside the "box" where the two manifolds bolt together and the exhaust passes through to warm the intake air. By blocking off that open space & isolating the intake the leak is plugged. YaaHooo