Lifter noise?

[Alk-3]

My 2.25 petrol has developed a ticking that I though was tappet noise. I checked the clearance with feeler gauges and one of them had very little clearance. Maybe a few thou, but not tightened right down. I thought maybe I had burned the valve because it was a bit tight, so I pulled the head, replaced all the valves, and ground them in properly, replaced the head gasket and got everything adjusted perfectly. The tappet noise has not changed. I am now wondering whet else it might be. It really sounds like tappet noise, and it sounds like just one loud one, not across the whole bunch. Could this be lifter noise? Any other suggestions? It developed fairly quickly over a period of a few weeks and has not gotten worse, but is pretty distinct.
The noise it not very noticeable when the engine first starts up, but once it's warm it makes the noise.
I'm running 10w40.

[SafeAirOne]

Did you also replace the valve guides while you were in there? It sounds like a sticking valve. I THINK this is one of the many symptoms that you can confirm with a vacuum gauge.

[Alk-3]

No I did not replace the guides. Can I do that now? Do they need to be done at the same time as the valves? Do I have to redo all the valves?
I did notice a few were a bit tight, and seemed to require a bit more force to slide through the guide.

I do have a vacuum gauge, but I don't know how to use it to check for a sticky valve.

[JimCT]

try marvel mystery oil in your fuel. might just free up the valves

[westcoastkevin]

Camshaft lobes/followers perhaps...

[Alk-3]

Does anyone know if I need to redo the valves now if I replace the guides?

[bkreutz]

No I did not replace the guides. Can I do that now? Do they need to be done at the same time as the valves? Do I have to redo all the valves?
I did notice a few were a bit tight, and seemed to require a bit more force to slide through the guide.

I do have a vacuum gauge, but I don't know how to use it to check for a sticky valve.

The vacuum gauge needle will fluctuate rapidly if the valves are sticking (after you hook it up to the engine;)) You should not have had to force the valves to move the main reason for the spec clearance is that the exhaust valve (and to a lesser extent the intake) will expand from heat and get too tight if the clearances aren't correct. If I was replacing the guides I would redo the valves as well since the guides have to be reamed to spec after installation.

[Alk-3]

The vacuum gauge needle will fluctuate rapidly if the valves are sticking (after you hook it up to the engine;)) You should not have had to force the valves to move the main reason for the spec clearance is that the exhaust valve (and to a lesser extent the intake) will expand from heat and get too tight if the clearances aren't correct. If I was replacing the guides I would redo the valves as well since the guides have to be reamed to spec after installation.

well, I have solved this problem, in a round about way. I was on my way home and about 50km's into a 300km trip the heat stopped working, so I pulled over, and sure enough, there was very little coolant in the rad. I noticed there was a bit of moisture around the engine bay, and when I checked under the valve cover breather, there was foamy oil. yup coolant in the oil.
I added what coolant I had to the rad, and limped to a service centre to assess the damage. under proper lighting I could see the crankcase was taking on a lot of coolant. The oil pressure was still fine, didn't change at all. the temperature gauge stopped working when I did the valves/gasket last week. I assumed I had damaged the sensor while I was woking on it, but now I wonder if that's the case at all. I will have to test it to see is I get a reading in boiling water.
I had enough supplies to do a full oil change, and could have purchased enough oil to do another if I wanted to limp home, doing oils changes along the way, but I decided I'd rather not risk a spun bearing. So my wife, myself, our two dogs all piled into a tow truck for a $440 ride home.
So, I'm going to drain the engine of coolant, and do an oil change tomorrow to flush out the water from the crank case.
Last week I replaced the head gasket while doing a valve job. When I had the head off I foolishly didn't even check it for flatness, and just put it back on. there is coolant seeping out from between the head and block near the front of the engine.
I did retorque the head bolts to 65 foot lbs, after warming up the truck when I did the head gasket, and assumed everything was fine.
so, by the time a remove the head again, and refit another set of new valves, and install new guides, and ream them to fit.. which I have never done before, so I don't even know that I could do it, and I'm sure I don't have the required tools to do the job. Then I still have to get the head machined flat again, and hope that it didn't over heat enough to cause any serious damage..
I think at this point I would be ahead of the game to remove the old head, set it aside and buy a new turner high performance head complete ready to drop onto the engine.
I know it will cost more money to do it this way, but I know it will be done right, and done faster than I could otherwise do it, if I tried to rebuild the old head…
Anyway, it's been a frustrating ordeal, and this is the first time the truck has ever let me down. but in the end, I will not have a sticky valve, and will not have to go through the trouble and time of rebuilding the head on my only vehicle.
now for a follow up question.. should I replace the head bolts while I'm at it? I will be ordering what I need tomorrow, and my shopping list is as follows:

turner HP head
head gasket
intake and exhaust manifold gaskets
intake and exhaust studs

anything else I might need?
I think I should start a new thread about this..

[SafeAirOne]

Eh...If you just put new valves in it, you should be able to get away with just ordering new guides and using the old valves, have a machine shop check the head for flatness and install the new valve guides and seals and reinstall the existing valves. You can check the flatness of the block with a straightedge and feeler gauges.

Next time you reinstall the head and "fill" the coolant, leave the cap loose and drive it around for a few miles to open the thermostat, then pull over, shut down and CAREFULLY top it up with more coolant/water mix. You might be able to add as much as another gallon + once the air is out of the cooling system.

PS: I'd be surprised if the new guides would need custom fitting to new valves, but you never know...

[o2batsea]

anything else I might need?
I think I should start a new thread about this..

I'd venture to say a new long block. What you are dealing with there is a pile of shyte. Why prolong the agony?

[antichrist]

The new guides only need to be reamed if they are not within spec.
It shouldn't take a machine shop long to check the block for flatness, mill if needed, and install the new guides.

Get your temperature gauge working.

[SafeAirOne]

I'd venture to say a new long block. What you are dealing with there is a pile of shyte. Why prolong the agony?

:rolleyes: [sigh...]

[o2batsea]

Diminishing returns and all that. Rebuilding an engine is not cost effective. A new Turner engine will better serve and be less expense, and add value to the vehicle. If the truck is just a quirky beater and you don't mind spending hours futzing with it, well...drive on, my friend.

[jac04]

Diminishing returns and all that. Rebuilding an engine is not cost effective. A new Turner engine will better serve and be less expense, and add value to the vehicle. If the truck is just a quirky beater and you don't mind spending hours futzing with it, well...drive on, my friend.
:rolleyes: [sigh x2]

[Alk-3]

I pulled the head, and the gasket seems to be in fine shape, no obvious signs of where the leak was. I have a straightedge and the head seems flat, but the block is a bit cupped.. how much out of flat is too much? it might be only one or two thousandths, I will check and get back to you guys.
I have to say, I'm getting really frustrated here. what started out as a noisy valve has turned into a real problem.
now my fear is the block is too cupped to be okay, and secondly, since there is no obvious signs of where the gasket was leaning, I am afraid of maybe a crack in the block causing the coolant to get into the oil.
Can someone run down the possibilities of how coolant could get into the oil, besides a bad head gasket?
EDIT Okay, I just checked for flatness. My feelers only go down to .002" and they don't fit under the straightedge, on both the block and the head.
Is it possible the head gasket just didn't take properly? I am fearing the worst, which is a cracked block. I don't know how that would have happened though, and the timing of it would be too perfect, given it only leaked after replacing the head gasket..
maybe i'm over thinking this, and should just get new valve guides, and reinstall..

[Alk-3]

another bit of information to help diagnose this:
Yesterday when I noticed the low coolant level, I topped it up, and within 30 minutes of driving I was down enough for the heater to stop working. at that point I called it quits and called the tow truck.
That seems like a lot of coolant to leak into the oil in a short time for just a blown gasket doesn't it?
Right now I'm trying to decide if I should buy a new head as planned, and hope that the block is fine, or worst case, replace the whole engine. if I buy the head, and everything is fine I will rebuild the old head and either sell it, or have it as a spare.
I'm really just hopping the block is not cracked allowing the coolant to get into the oil.

[SafeAirOne]

Did you chase the head bolt hole threads with a tap, then blow/vacuum out the junk from each hole, and then follow the head/head gasket installation procedures in precisely during reassembly? Several things can cause head bolt torque to read higher than it really is.

[Alk-3]

Did you chase the head bolt hole threads with a tap, then blow/vacuum out the junk from each hole, and then follow the head/head gasket installation procedures in precisely during reassembly? Several things can cause head bolt torque to read higher than it really is.

no, I didn't chase the threads. I will do that next time for sure.
I did follow the guide step by step very carefully. the only thing I did differently, was I torqued all the bolts down to about 30 foot lbs, in order, then went back and started over with 65 foot lbs.
after inspecting everything, and recalling the events, I'm starting to lean towards a cracked head. The gasket is in really good shape, with no real signs of damage at all. I can clearly see the indention from the head seating into the gasket and all the water passages appear well sealed. I'm taking the head to a machine shop not to get it cleaned and checked for cracks.

[Alk-3]

I just dropped the head off at the machine shop. the machinist says it's possible one of the freeze plugs has rotten through.
so now that the head is at the shop for assessment, I'm left with the rest of the engine.. how to I flush out the coolant from the engine? I have drained all I can out the oil pan, but should do anything else?
My plan was to fill the engine with oil as per usual, and then run it for a few minutes, then do an oil change, and repeat until it ran clear again. Is that the best course of action? this would of course have to wait until it's all back together. could be a week or more if I have to order a new head.

[antichrist]

If you're really worried about a cracked head ask them to Magnaflux it.

[Alk-3]

Got a call today from the machine shop. There is a big crack going from one of the freeze plugs across to one of the bolt boss's. New turner gas flowed head is on order.
Does anyone have any input on flushing the coolant/oil goo out of the crank case safely?

[albersj51]

Got a call today from the machine shop. There is a big crack gng from me of the freeze plugs across to one of the bolt boss's. New turner gas flowed head is on order.
Does anyone have any input on flushing the coolant/oil goo out of the crank case safely?

It may not hurt to drop the pan and clean it out really well.

[Alk-3]

It may not hurt to drop the pan and clean it out really well.

I was thinking that. At least get as much out as I can.

[siiirhd88]

I usually add several gallons of kerosene or diesel fuel to the empty sump and flush the galleries by spinning the engine using the hand crank. After a bit of cranking and observing the flow out of the rocker shaft I let it sit for several hours and then drain the mix. I refill the sump with cheap oil and perform the flush and drain again.

Bob

Does anyone have any input on flushing the coolant/oil goo out of the crank case safely?[/QUOTE]

[Alk-3]

I usually add several gallons of kerosene or diesel fuel to the empty sump and flush the galleries by spinning the engine using the hand crank. After a bit of cranking and observing the flow out of the rocker shaft I let it sit for several hours and then drain the mix. I refill the sump with cheap oil and perform the flush and drain again.

Bob



Good Idea. I will do that, thanks!

[Alk-3]

okay, I have finished putting everything back together. I got the new head gasket on, the head, and flushed the engine thoroughly with diesel fuel. I hand cranked it, and cranked it with the starter when I got too tired, then drained and repeated several times. I then put in new oil and started it up. ran if for a few minutes just at idle, and flushed it again, then did this one more time with new oil, flushed it and finally filled with clean oil again. I changed the filter each time I drained and refilled. the oil is now very clear, so I feel like it's as clean as it will get for now. I will do another oil change once I get a chance to drive it for a few km's.
so I still have a noisy tappet, but it sounds different from the last time, which I now beleve was a sticky valve. Now on valve number 8 I'm having a problem.. After running the engine to warm it up, I retorqued the head and readjusted the tappets. I set them all to .010" hot. I then started it up, and there was some tappet noise coming from number 8. I shut it down, and number 8 needed to be readjusted again for some reason, even though I had just done it. is it possible that the lifter down in the block is worn in some way that makes it change the clearance? like if there is a round part that has become oval or something like that? is the lifter hydraulic and maybe having a bit of a hard time coming up to pressure or something?
after I adjusted it again I started it up, and it made the same noise, so while the engine was running I loosened off the lock nut and tightened the screw a little bit, and the noise stopped completely, and it sounded great. I did not leave it tightened like their because I do not want to burn a valve, but I also wanted to see if the noise would go away.. so what could be the cause of this?

[bkreutz]

You could have a worn rocker arm tip that gives you a false clearance reading, the feeler gauge could be hitting two high spots but when the engine is operating the actual clearance is too much. Something like this )). Imagine putting your feeler gauge in between those two, you would be bridging the concavity on one side and the convexity on the other. This isn't common but I have seen it a few times over the years on different engines. The proper way to correct is to replace both but I've gotten away with not replacing by adjusting the valve lash with a dial indicator. Just an idea, your description sure sounds like this.

[Alk-3]

yes, I had read about this before. I wonder if it might be the case here.
Any and all suggestions are very much welcome, and I will check each suggestion as we go.

[Alk-3]

...figured it out, and it's not good, but could be worse.
I went out to try what bkreutz suggested, and it didn't do much, if anything,, the engine is cooler now, so it's hard to say if it made any difference… anyway, I adjusted it the best I could and started it up to listen, then adjustested and listened again etc, when all of the sudden it started backfiring up through the carb.. that distinctive pop sound.. so I had a real quick glance at it before I ran to shut off the key, and noticed valve number 8 not moving at all. after shutting it down I used the hand crank to get valve number one to the fully open position and sure enough, the pushrod on valve 8 was jammed up on something down in the block. it looked like it was going through the hole to the lifters at the correct angle, but it's hard to say.. anyway, I decided to pull the whole rocker arm assembly to see what was up. Once I got it taken apart, the #8 pushrod was clearly wedged in on a slightly different angle than the rest. I shined a small light down and could see the end of the pushrod was not sitting in the little cradle in the brass thing (not sure what it's called, but I've attached a photo of the part I'm talking about..) anyway, I had to use a claw hammer to get the pushrod unjammed.. which really did not require any real effort, but I couldn't get a grip on it with all the oil everywhere.. so I peered down and the pushrod has actually punched a hole through the brass thing, but way off to one side, not in the middle. in fact, the hole it punched doesn't seem to be affecting the fuction of the brass thing. I can seat the pushrod into it's designated cup and it stays put.. it would have to be very very loose (maybe ⅛" or more clearance at the tappet adjustment before it would once again hop out of it's cup and go into the hole.. So I bolted everything back together again, and it is running just perfect.. for now. I ran around the block a few times, going very hard on it with high revs, pulling away with as much load as I could, and it held fine, as I would have expected. everything sounded really good too, better than it's sounded in months.
I'm wondering though, will the bits of brass that got punched out find their way into the oil pan? should I be concerned with them bouncing around in there maybe causing some damage to the cam or something. it is brass, so it's not going to stand much of a chance against steel parts, but still..
My main concern is the pushrod popping out and causing this problem again. My thoughts are if this happens on the road at some point, I would not want to run it at all without the #8 valve functioning, so would it be wise (if it stops working on the road) to pull the spark plug? I do not intend to drive the truck much, as I do work from home, but the occasional jont out to grab something is all. In the spring I plan to remove this engine and fix the lifter issue, and then store the engine, and fit a new more powerful one that can handle slightly higher RPM's.. so in short, this engine is on it's way to retirement, but I would need it to last till the spring.
By the way, the engine has good compression across all cylinders, does not burn oil, has the brand new HP gas flowed turner head now fitted, and has loads of power for a 2.25.. but I drive on the highway a lot (7 hours per weekend, every weekend) at about 60 to 65mph, with a Roverdrive, and I don't want to torture this strong engine with this abuse, so I'd like to swap it out before I burn it out.
If the advice is to pull the head and fish out the lifter from the block and fit a new one, I will do that, but if it not an absolute urgency, I wouldn't mind waiting on it, now that I've removed and fitted the head three times in under two weeks.
Here is the picture.. this picture is of the part sitting upside down.. the pushrod seats into a socket on the lower side. hope that makes sense.

http://www.turnerengineering.co.uk/acatalog/ERR_607_Tappet_Slide.jpg

[SafeAirOne]

The pushrod wasn't properly seated in the tappet upon reassembly.

[Alk-3]

The pushrod wasn't properly seated in the tappet upon reassembly.

correct. that's what I assumed as soon as I saw the pushrod was stuck.

[SafeAirOne]

correct. that's what I assumed as soon as I saw the pushrod was stuck.


I figured as much. Your write-up questioned if it would happen as you're driving down the road in the future. It won't--if the rod is seated in the socket and the rocker is adjusted.

[Alk-3]

I figured as much. Your write-up questioned if it would happen as you're driving down the road in the future. It won't--if the rod is seated in the socket and the rocker is adjusted.

that's what I wanted to hear. I will replace the tappet once I get a few days in a row to tear it down, but in the meantime I'm going to assume it's okay for now. If by chance it does happen as I drive, would pulling the plug on the cylinder be wise just to get it home?

[SafeAirOne]

If by chance it does happen as I drive, would pulling the plug on the cylinder be wise just to get it home?

EDIT: Oh...I just realized that you said you're going to drive it without replacing that tappet (or at least checking it). It is a soft, crumbly metal, so I personally wouldn't risk it. It could be shattered, which could very well lead to all sorts of nastiness. END EDIT.


BTW, I'd check to make sure that #8 lifter that wasn't seated is straight before ordering parts. The book says to roll it along a flat surface and look for a wobble.

[Alk-3]

EDIT: Oh...I just realized that you said you're going to drive it without replacing that tappet (or at least checking it). It is a soft, crumbly metal, so I personally wouldn't risk it. It could be shattered, which could very well lead to all sorts of nastiness. END EDIT.

I'd be more concerned about running it at all with a lifter bouncing around, crunching up the tappet, setting the cam follower free to mangle up the camshaft and head. Limping it home could turn a simple lifter and tappet R&R into a whole new head and camshaft.

BTW, I'd check to make sure that #8 lifter that wasn't seated is straight before ordering parts. The book says to roll it along a flat surface and look for a wobble.

as the day wore on and I gave it some more thought, I've decided to go ahead and replace the broken part, even though it does seem solid right now.. I just had zero interest in once again pulling the head off this motor… I'm SO tired of it. every time I pull it off something else goes wrong, and it's just getting silly now.
I will get a new pushrod, and a whole new lifter assembly, new head gasket (AGAIN!) and go for it.
does anyone know if I could get just a head gasket somewhere. I've only been able to find the whole gasket set.. I have way more gaskets than I could ever use.
sooo any tips on how to remove the cam follower and lifter assembly with the tappet? I understand I have to remove a setscrew that has a safety wire threaded through it..

[SafeAirOne]

Upon further research, it seems the cam follower (tappet roller) shouldn't be able to fall into the cam area even though the tappet is completely destroyed unless the tappet guide itself is raised (which it won't be unless you remove the safety-wired set screw). In other words, it appears as if cam and block (not head, as I mis-stated earlier) damage shouldn't be an issue with your current situation, at least not from the cam follower falling into the cam compartment. I've retracted my earlier post regarding this.

Still, I'd probably want to change that tappet if it has a piece missing. I wouldn't bother with the lifter if it is still straight, and head gaskets alone are available almost everywhere.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7146/6541908169_39ce9c77ac_z.jpg

[Alk-3]

Upon further research, it seems the cam follower (tappet roller) shouldn't be able to fall into the cam area even though the tappet is completely destroyed unless the tappet guide itself is raised (which it won't be unless you remove the safety-wired set screw). In other words, it appears as if cam and block (not head, as I mis-stated earlier) damage shouldn't be an issue with your current situation, at least not from the cam follower falling into the cam compartment. I've retracted my earlier post regarding this.

Still, I'd probably want to change that tappet if it has a piece missing. I wouldn't bother with the lifter if it is still straight, and head gaskets alone are available almost everywhere.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7146/6541908169_39ce9c77ac_z.jpg

Okay, that's good news. I was wondering if this would really be a problem, but I don't really want to risk anything. So now I have a fear of the roller dropping into the cam compartment.. it says to make an appropriate wire clip.. what does that mean? I'm sure once I pull it out it will be obvious, but at that point it might be too late.. the way this project has been progressing I will almost be shock if it doesn't fall into the cam compartment.

[SafeAirOne]

Okay, that's good news. I was wondering if this would really be a problem, but I don't really want to risk anything. So now I have a fear of the roller dropping into the cam compartment.. it says to make an appropriate wire clip.. what does that mean? I'm sure once I pull it out it will be obvious, but at that point it might be too late.. the way this project has been progressing I will almost be shock if it doesn't fall into the cam compartment.


Well, an undamaged tappet should just slide right up the groove in the tappet guide (#11 in the diagram), but you have to remove the set screw (labeled 6,12 & 15) in order to slide the tappet all the way out. The key is to make sure the tappet guide (#11) doesn't ride up in the bore, allowing the tappet roller to fall into the cam compartment while you're fetching the tappet.

It's not as hard as it sounds. All you need is a stiff wire with a small hook bent on the end of it. Something that will pass through the front or rear gap between the tappet and the guide and hook on the recess in the side of the tappet and pull it up. The other option is if you have some pretty long needle-nosed pliers that you can just grab the tappet with and pull it out. A magnetic pick-up tool will probably get the tappet roller out, or you could use the hooked wire.

Should the tappet guide somehow be raised, allowing the tappet roller to fall into the cam compartment, it's not the end of the world, though it is a PITA. Just male sure you do not rotate the engine. You'll have to remove the fuel pump and rear cam cover and retrieve the tappet roller.