a non stater

[NickDawson]

hey gang,
Long time no chat. I've been enjoying catching up on the threads this morning.
Graduate school and full time work has pretty much killed my extracurricular activities including driving and maintaining my rover :(

However, by the looks of the clouds I have about an hour before our first winter storm rolls in. Seems like a good time to takle my starter issue, right?

Over the summer, when I was still driving the rover on the weekends, occasionally when I turned the key, it would just click. Usually the 2nd or 3rd turn would get it going. Now, it only clicks...nothing.

It's a new starter, less than a year old. Some may remember that i have a funky 2.5L engine where just enough is different from the 2.25 to be substantially annoying. The starter is one of those differences. I had to order my from the UK. These starters have the advantage of being a slightly more modern design with an integral solenoid. They have the disadvantage of being too unknown for any of the local rebuilding shops I took my last one to.

I brushed up on other posts about starters (pun marginally intended) and have a few ideas of things to check:


All the wires and ground connection
battery condition and voltage
whack it with a hammer (working solo today, can I hit it and then try and start it? Or does it have to be when someone is turning the key?)
jumping the positive....


It's the last one that has me a bit worried. What's the procedure there? Is it as simple as putting the truck in neutral and using a suitable wire (jumper cable)? I guess my concern is being under the truck and trying to start it. I'll chock the wheels and put the transmission and transfer case in neutral. Do I want the key on or off? I'm assuming if off, the starter may spin up, but the engine won't start since there's no power to the plugs, etc... is that the best way to test, or do I want the ignition engaged?

Any other tips or thoughts?

edited to add:
Just had a duh moment... make the connection at the battery, not the starter!

[NickDawson]

well that was quick... unfortunately I didn't get very far.

I'd forgotten how the starter is really wedged in there on this engine. There's no real way to take a whack at it, but I was able to tap it a bit with a hammer. Doubt it did anything.

I'm getting a solid 12v at the battery and, with the ignition on, at the ignition terminal on the solenoid. When I jump the solenoid (connect the positive directly to the battery) the motor spins, but it's not engaged with the fly wheel. It sounds like...well... an electric motor spinning freely. I tried turning the key while it spun, didn't make a difference.

So, does that suggest the solenoid is stuck somehow? It still makes a click when you turn the key (and another click when you release the key).

Any thoughts before I pull it off (which involves dropping the exhaust)?

[albersj51]

Regarding bullet 3: on another car, I just tapped it, got in, and it started up.

[stomper]

if I'm not mistaken, I think you are suppost to have 14.4 volts from the battery to the starter, or something higher than 12 volts. You may not be getting enough juice to throw out the bendix to the flywheel.

Charge your battery, or if you have a really nice battery charger, there will be a 225volt start charge switch for jump starting a vehicle. Short of this, there may be grease or something gumming up the bendix, that prevents the starter dog from engaging the flywheel.

[NickDawson]

Thanks Stomper!
You are correct about the voltage. I tried jumping it from another car, got a solid 14.6v, but it didn't make a difference.

I'll pull it and see if I can unjam the bendix (which will also be the name of my band, should I ever start one)

[SafeAirOne]

You say you checked the grounds. I'm presuming that you cleaned the contact surfaces between the braided starter grounding strap and the starter and the strap and the engine block? How about the battery grounding wire and the chassis? The battery ground terminal on the battery? Finally both ends of the chassis-to-block grounding strap?

You have the classis symptoms of a poorly conductive circuit that is sufficient to operate the low-drain stuff but not the high-demand stuff.

I had the same symptoms on a known-good starter and it turned out to be a bad battery cable-to-chassis ground. Your meter will read 12v everywhere, all day long for troubleshooting, but when you turn the key, nothing but a click.

[NickDawson]

You say you checked the grounds.

I'll be more specific in this reply - and it sounds like I have some more checking to do.

This starter grounds to the block where it connects. There's not actually a ground strap.

I did check the positive connection and cleaned the connector - it's still virtually brand new and shiny.

I started to get into the process of pulling the stater, which will also involve dropping the exhaust to get to the top bolt... and the snow started coming down too hard. Without a garage, it'll have to wait a few days :)

[stomper]

mark went into more detail than i could on my iphone. You have a few possible problems. Do you get 14.6 volts at your battery? if not, your battery needs to be trickle charged. If you are getting 14.6 volts at the battery, and 12 volts at the starter, you have a corroded wire or ground strap or something. With a known 14.6 volts from a battery, and a jumper cable to your starter, it should start. you just aren't getting enough electricity to the starter to throw the selinoid and the bendix.

[printjunky]

Gonna hafta agree with Mark. I would dissasseble ALL of your ground connections, clean the points of connection to bare metal and reassemble them. With my tendency to jump to the most complex comclusion, it took me a long time to learn this lesson, but the vast majority of auto electrical problems are conductivity problems - too little (bad grounds/connections) or too much (a short).

I was having all kinds of weird electrical behaviors. After way more complex troubleshooting, I finally gave in and restored my connections, as well as adding additional grounding. For example i have a ground from one of the starter mounting bolts to the same motor mount that is connected to the negative side of the battery (The starter's electrical connection to the block can have other variables, like corrosion, and how well the block itself is grounded), I also doubled my chassis to block grounds. Since then not a single electrical ghost haunting me. (well, none that weren't easily traceable to a broken wire or bad lamp socket, etc.)

[NickDawson]

ah, you guys mean the grounds for the block to the frame, etc ...
I'll give them all a good going over once the sleet stops. Thanks!

To clarify my voltage posts - I get 14.6 at the positive on the starter WHEN I connect jumpers to another running vehicle. My battery is only putting out about 12v, likely owed to not driving too much in the last few months. Jumping from another vehicle doesnt help the problem at all (which would still be the case if the grounds were bad, right?)

[canyonero]

My problems went on for months with me jumping it, cleaning up any ground I could find, etc. After all that it was the simple option of new battery cables, both to the solenoid and ground to the engine block. New cables, end of problem. (Although I'm sure the newly clean grounds help a great deal too.)

[knac1234]

I agree with grounds. My starter was barely working at all. Needed a new battery....still no luck. Finally, installed a ground wire directly from the starter to the battery.....end of problem. Of course, then the starter died, so replaced it with a hi torque one during my "resto". Starts quickly and mostly the first time, every time now.


Julian

[SafeAirOne]

Jumping from another vehicle doesnt help the problem at all (which would still be the case if the grounds were bad, right?)

No, not at all. Presuming, of course, that you're hooking up the jumper cables to your batery. Your battery is still the starting and ending point for every electron's journey to the starter and back. You're not eliminating/bypassing the wiring at all that way.

PS--Your starter should have a ground strap from the starter brace bolt (or nut, I cant remember which) on the back of the starter to the stud sticking out of the 2.5 block nearby, ensuring a good ground path. Grounding through the mounting bolts/stud is probably good enough, but you can't be sure without the strap.

Jumping HAS eliminated an insufficient battery as a possible casue, though....

[NickDawson]

Thanks guys! Looking forward to the thaw so I can go over the cables and grounds.

I was laying in bed thinking about this though. When I jump with an other car, I put the positive to the positive cable on the batter and the negative right to the block on my rover.

Assuming the positive cable from the battery to the starter is good, wouldn't that rule out a bad ground?

[SalemRover]

Thanks guys! Looking forward to the thaw so I can go over the cables and grounds.

I was laying in bed thinking about this though. When I jump with an other car, I put the positive to the positive cable on the batter and the negative right to the block on my rover.

Assuming the positive cable from the battery to the starter is good, wouldn't that rule out a bad ground?

It is also entirely possible to have a weak connection between the positive cable and the battery terminal. That would give you 12v for all your electrics, but would not be able to draw the amperage a starter would need.

-Jason

[NickDawson]

Hey gang,
Quick update... Tonight I replaced the electrical leads and terminals from the battery to the starter and to the frame. I also put a ground strap on the starter. No benefit. With a jump from another vehicle, it's still just a click and nothing.

I'm inclined to think stuck bendix at this point. I'll drop the exhaust down pipe and yank the starter this weekend. Hopefully it's just gunked up and I clean it out. If not, I'll be calling GE UK :)

Thanks for the advice and please keep it coming. Even if the cables and terminals weren't the problem, it was probably worth doing. Even if I did almost arc weld a wrench to my farme in the process :)

[siii8873]

You do not have to drop your exhaust to remove the starter. I know it's a PITA but not necessary. May open a can of worms with the manifold studs.

[Terrys]

You do not have to drop your exhaust to remove the starter.
X2. Just crank your steering wheel all the way to the right and it will come out. Tilt the outer end of the starter upward to clear the bellhousing, then let it down bendix first.

[NickDawson]

Beautiful Virginia day...spring break from school...nothing looming for the work week so that means some good quality Rover time!

I made some progress and was able to get the starter motor off without dropping the exhaust. With the 2.5l and starter, it's not a function of the wheel position. Rather it's access to the top bolt which is doubly complicated in my setup. Regardless, I used the force, and a ratchet extender and found the bolt.

When I "bench" tested things, I was glad to see that both the motor and solenoid seem to be working. Take a look at this video (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/6973307351/in/photostream)

When I apply voltage to the main battery terminal of the stater, the motor spins into high gear and seems to be turning fine.

When I apply voltage to what I'm calling the solenoid terminal, the bendix kicks out and the motor turns very slowly. if I try and jump them both at the same time, nothing happens. I'm assuming that's all normal operation? Then again, shouldn't I be able to apply voltage to both at the same time and get the desired high speed spin and bendix movement? I was reluctant to try and bridge those contacts too much since I wasn't sure if it would cause damage.

here's a closer look at those two terminals:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7060/6973307955_28f1d7b5f1_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/6973307955/)
Bench Test (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/6973307955/) by NickDawson (http://www.flickr.com/people/nickdawson/), on Flickr

My next step is to ensure that I've got a good connection from the wire to the solenoid terminal. The connector seems a little lose and I'm hopeful that's all there is to it. I'll report back shortly.

In the mean time, any comments or suggestions regarding the "bench" test (which is really a "ground test" in my case :) ?

[NickDawson]

I didn't make much progress today, although I took a lot of stuff apart :(

I replaced the connectors on the lead from this relay to the solenoid:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7042/6973727251_b421f72644_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/6973727251/)
relay (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/6973727251/) by NickDawson (http://www.flickr.com/people/nickdawson/), on Flickr

And then I tested the starter which you'll see in this video (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/6827611410/).
width="400" height="225" flashvars="intl_lang=en-us&photo_secret=45cd2387d7&photo_id=6827611410" bgcolor="#000000" allowFullScreen="true"

As you'll see, the bendix moves forward and the motor starts turning.

I made sure the the new ground strap on the stater had a good connection to the frame...hooked all the wiring back up and still just a click when I turn the key.

That click is the same click as when I test it - the solenoid's magnet and movement.

It's almost like the flywheel is jammed? Could that be? I've started the rover a few times by getting a tug from another truck and popping the clutch. Wouldn't that suggest everything is moving appropriately?

Where does all this take us? I think we've ruled out electrical issues, right? Could the starter still be bad and just incapable to working under mechanical load?

Related - I'm quasi inspired to strip and rewire the entire electrical system. But that's a project for after graduate school. Right now, I just need to get it running.

[SafeAirOne]

zDoes your motor turn when you use the hand crank?

Is that a new starter or an old one? It may be engaging the flywheel, but still not have enough torque to do anything once its engaged for whatever reason.

EDIT: I just re-watched the video. It seems like it's taking an awful long time for your starter to spool up. Ususally it's just "Bam--Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" not "Click--rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".

[NickDawson]

zDoes your motor turn when you use the hand crank?

Is that a new starter or an old one? It may be engaging the flywheel, but still not have enough torque to do anything once its engaged for whatever reason.

EDIT: I just re-watched the video. It seems like it's taking an awful long time for your starter to spool up. Ususally it's just "Bam--Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" not "Click--rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".

Thanks SafeAirOne

This thing doesn't have a dog for the hand crank, just a massive 2.5" (I think) hex head bolt. I have pull started it a few times, so the engine is turning over. Wouldn't that mean the flywheel is free too?

Regarding the starter's speed...or lack there of:

When I put a jumper right on the main terminal, the gear remains retracted but spins quite fast. When I bench test with everything attached correctly the result is what you see in that video - extended gear, slow spin.

My question, with a sample size of 1 strange rover to reference, is that normal? If not, I'll yank it and take to a starter shop tomorrow.

It's only about 2 years old - had to order it from Dingocroft in the UK when the orignal starter bit the dust. That doesn't mean it is of any quality though... likely britpart or similar.

[SafeAirOne]

Thanks SafeAirOne

This thing doesn't have a dog for the hand crank, just a massive 2.5" (I think) hex head bolt. I have pull started it a few times, so the engine is turning over. Wouldn't that mean the flywheel is free too?


That's right you have the 2.5P. It's actually a big bolt with a 41mm head holding the pully on the crank.

I guess the question is "do you hear it whirring away when you're cranking it or does it just go "'clunk' and then nothing?"

If it's a clunk and nothing, then I might drag the starter down to an electric shop for a checkup, presuming that there's nothing impeding the full flow of electricity from your fully charged and servicable battery.

[NickDawson]

The Rover rides again!
Just to close this thread - I found a local rebuilder who went to town on my Dingocroft 1 year old starter. I picked it up yesterday and within 10 minutes had the rover back on the road.

Thanks everyone for the troubleshooting advice and support.

As part of the proces, I ended up replacing all the battery leads and ground straps, which I'm sure will prove to be worthwhile.

I got a kick out of the old timer working on the starter - he apparently had to dip into his stock of tractor parts to find an armature. I didn't want to know too much more...

Now, to fix the brake adjusters and the toe-in alignment and she'll be as good as...new'ish?