1969 Series IIa - no third gear

[WilsBoar]

Looking to buy this 1969 Series IIa but it currently has an issue with shifting in to 3rd gear. No apparent catastrophic failure, just stopped going in to gear.

Owner said it may have something to due with a "stuck pin" in the shifter or worst case a synchro issue.

This vehicle may have sat for a long time and then it had this issue.

Any recommendations for approaching this problem without just dropping the tranny and taking it apart? If it was a synchro issue would it be able to shift into 4th gear? First and second gear still work.

[SafeAirOne]

Depends on how deeply you want to delve into somebody else's problem.

You could pull the floorboards and tunnel cover to make sure it's not just a worn shift lever end that's trying to select a new gear without first taking it out of the existing gear. They can sometimes behave this way when the end of the shift lever is worn.

If that looks OK, you could continue by removing the shift lever and the gear selector cover to see if it's just a shifter rod detent problem, which wouldn't be so bad, or whether it's a problem within the transmission innards, which would be so bad.

[knac1234]

Wilsboar,

Last year, my Series III all of a sudden lost 3rd/4th gear (limped home in 2nd w/OD!!).

Anyway, to make a long story short, with help from this board I was able to determine that the synchro spring clips had snapped and were jamming the synchro's movement. Not knowing a thing about transmissions, I was able to repair this with the tranny in place by removing the top cover; removing the gearshift and the selecting mechanism; draining the oil; and then pulling out the broken clips and replacing them with very long needle nose pliers.

Total repair cost (oil, new gearshift lever that caused the issue by trying to select two gears at once, extra clips, long right angled needle nose pliers): less than $100.

If this is the issue, then it is doable. You will lose a half pound of skin from your knuckles when reaching in there though!!!!

Good luck,
Julian

[artpeck]

Curious if it shifts into 4th fine and this is just a 3rd gear issue or is 4th hard to find out of a solid shift from 2nd as well?

[jumpmaster54]

I have a spare tranny but it is for a 2.6 6 cylinder. I suppose they are different?

Stan

[SafeAirOne]

I have a spare tranny but it is for a 2.6 6 cylinder. I suppose they are different?

Only the bellhousing bolt pattern. Just need to change ot a 4cyl bellhousing. Oh, and also the clutch release setup, depending on whether your 2.6 was of the Series III variety.

[WilsBoar]

Artpeck, It shifts in to everything except 3rd. It easily goes into 4th as well. If it was a synchro issue would 4th also not engage? I would feel better if that was the case (of course)

Knac1234 my inclination is to do just that process to see what gives. Also may drain the oil to see if any parts come out with it. I will probably douse it with pb blaster first to see if it may just be some crud keeping parts from moving the way they should be.

SafeAirOne, good idea that it may be a worn shift lever. It is original and doesnt appear to every have been removed.

JumpMaster54, your spare transmission might be the ticket if I find that this one is shot. Do have the bellhousing as well? Please PM on what you would want for your spare if that is the route I have to take.

Thanks all! I appreciate the help and the comments.

Derek

[SafeAirOne]

SafeAirOne, good idea that it may be a worn shift lever. It is original and doesnt appear to every have been removed.

The bulk of my advice was given in the belief that you couldn't select either 3rd and 4th, so the shift lever thing may not pan out in the end.

If you can tell that the shift lever hasn't been removed lately, you can probably see all 3 selector rod ends, where the shift lever fits. If they're all even and straight across when in neutral, and each selector rod returns to the neutral position before the next gear is selected, then the shift lever end isn't your problem.

[artpeck]

The bulk of my advice was given in the belief that you couldn't select either 3rd and 4th, so the shift lever thing may not pan out in the end.

If you can tell that the shift lever hasn't been removed lately, you can probably see all 3 selector rod ends, where the shift lever fits. If they're all even and straight across when in neutral, and each selector rod returns to the neutral position before the next gear is selected, then the shift lever end isn't your problem.

This was my point as well and hence my question on 3rd and 4th versus just 3rd. Sounds like innards but then I am not an innards expert. Just had the same issue with 3rd and 4th (and 1st and 2nd when downshifting) and it was a worn ball on the shift lever. Easy fix. Good luck.

[WilsBoar]

So, I found a series III transmission for my series IIa. I understand that the bellhousing bolt pattern will be different so I will need the series III bellhousing and clutch release assembly? What kind of question do I need to ask the guy with the transmission to make sure it will work for my IIa? Did the Series IIIs have anything but a 2.6 that would screw my plan up?

Derek

[SafeAirOne]

So, I found a series III transmission for my series IIa. I understand that the bellhousing bolt pattern will be different so I will need the series III bellhousing and clutch release assembly?

No. The bolt pattern will be different only if one was out of a 6-cylinder and the other out of a 4-cylinder. If they were both 4-cylinder transmissions, they will mate up with a 4-cylinder engine.

The only thing that is series-dependent is the clutch actuation method:

The SIII has the slave mounted right through the front of the bellhousing and points aft and DIRECTLY actuates the clutch throw lever on the inside of the bellhousing. (third diagram down on this page (http://www.roversnorth.com/store/c-48-slave-cylinder.aspx)).

The SIIA has the slave mounted vertically beside the bellhousing and pushes a bellcrank connected to a rod that runs inside the bellhousing (top 2 diagrams on this page (http://www.roversnorth.com/store/c-48-slave-cylinder.aspx)).

If you found a SIII transmission out of a 4-cylinder, you should just be able to install it and run a line from your existing clutch master cylinder to the slave on the front of the SIII transmission (if it comes with the slave. If not, just buy one and plumb it in).

You might want to check on this, but I think the different master cylinders will work equally well with either the SIIA or the SIII slave cylinders displacement-wise.

Not all series III's had 6-cylinder engines. In fact, most didn't (besides NADA). just ask the seller if the transmission was out of a 4-cylinder rover or a 6-cylinder rover.

[WilsBoar]

Thanks for the great rundown Mark. I will see what engine the series III had. I appreciate the info.

Derek

[Jim-ME]

Can one switch the bell housing/slave from a 2a on to a 3 to keep the original 2a clutch system?
Jim

[WilsBoar]

Hmmm, good question Jim. That may save some effort and $$ for me on this evolution.

[SafeAirOne]

Can one switch the bell housing/slave from a 2a on to a 3 to keep the original 2a clutch system?
Jim


I couldn't say for sure--I've never done it, but I'm sure somebody here knows one way or another. I suspect the input shafts and bellhousing mounts are compatible.

[daveb]

I'm just reading this now after replying to the bellhousing question in your other thread. I am running a SIII trans with a IIa bellhousing. So yes it is possible. I would try to fix what you have before dropping any coin on a replacement box. Changing the 3/4 synchro detent springs can't be that hard. I have watched somebody do it and I never even got tired :)

[Jim-ME]

I need a to completely rebuild my trans as mine is really noisy in all gears. I am leaning towards a rebuilt 2a but you never know what might be available.
Jim

[WilsBoar]

Just found 2 SII gearboxes close by. One from a 1958 109 and another from a 1966 88.
From what I have read here, the SII should mate up with my SIIa hardware.

How far am I moving backward if I don't use a SIIa gearbox? Assuming that the gearbox is in decent shape and won't need rebuilt immediately.

[yorker]

Assuming that the gearbox is in decent shape and won't need rebuilt immediately.

Assuming that it will be just as good as anything else would be. ;)

[I Leak Oil]

Assuming it's original to the truck, I'd go with the '66 gear box and not the '58. The early box, being an earlier suffix, is a) potentially weaker because of the smaller layshaft components and b) will be harder to find parts for. The later box should have some of the updates as it relates to the layshaft.

[Larry L]

Wilsboar,

Last year, my Series III all of a sudden lost 3rd/4th gear (limped home in 2nd w/OD!!).

Anyway, to make a long story short, with help from this board I was able to determine that the synchro spring clips had snapped and were jamming the synchro's movement. Not knowing a thing about transmissions, I was able to repair this with the tranny in place by removing the top cover; removing the gearshift and the selecting mechanism; draining the oil; and then pulling out the broken clips and replacing them with very long needle nose pliers.

Total repair cost (oil, new gearshift lever that caused the issue by trying to select two gears at once, extra clips, long right angled needle nose pliers): less than $100.

If this is the issue, then it is doable. You will lose a half pound of skin from your knuckles when reaching in there though!!!!

Good luck,
Julian

Very interested in this process Julian. I too lost 3rd and 4th two nights ago and limped home in 2nd with OD.

I pulled the top cover and expected to see a broken shifting fork, but it looks fine. The issue appears to be limited travel of the ring in the center of the syncro hub for 3rd and 4th. (I can't get 3rd or 4th and when I was trying to shift, there was strong resistance in the gearshift lever, but not a "clunk" metal to metal resistance. It was more of a binding feel.)

I'm thinking my clips may have broken as well. I've not looked in to see yet, but hoping that is the issue if it can be repaired without pulling the whole unit out. The trans is quiet and has never given me any issues, so it doesn't need a rebuild. I just need to be able to shift!

I know nothing about transmissions, so I'm in uncharted waters here... Any additional comments would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Larry L]

OK, I rocked the truck back and forth in 2nd to rotate the syncro for 3/4. No clips broken, but one is out of place. Instead of the normal position, flat in line with the shaft, it is rotated 90 degrees. Up on it's edge. This prevents the ring from sliding forward or backward and was the resistance I was feeling when unable to shift into 3 or 4.

Did some digging and found a lot of folks that said the trans must be pulled and syncro clips replaced out of the truck, but like Julian, there are a few who said it can be done in place. Attached is a very helpful link should someone else be faced with this clip problem - either broken or our of place like mine.

http://www.4wdonline.com/LandRover/Series/Mech/SynchroClips.html

[SafeAirOne]

You must be really unlucky--I've never heard of one of those springs turning up on edge and jamming up the works. Usually they just snap across the flat part and fall out, then you begin the "double-clutching through all the gears" lifestyle.

[1961 109 WAGON]

Pm left. I have a series two a trans/transfer if you need one.

[charleslong]

I have a problem with my 1967 Series IIA..can't shift to 3rd or 4th gear. The transmission has worked well...no noise, smooth shifting. However, after stopping at a stop sign and starting off in second gear, I could not shift into 3rd or 4th gear. I have read the forums and the same problem experienced by others and would like to hear from anyone who can help. I see that knac1234(Julian) repaired the problem and had photos. If possible I would like to communicate with Julian and see his photos if he still has them. I have owned my Land Rover for 43 years. I can be contacted at (757) 482-2265 or on my cell phone at (757) 510-6757. Thanks. Chuck