Help needed in Alabama: brake bleeding

[xrunnr]

Hello All,

Ok, I am so close to "finishing" my two year '74 109 restoration. I know it will never officially be finished but one of the last things on my list right now is getting the brakes to work :( For about the last year I have bled the brakes about 100 times and cant get all of he air out, you have to pump 2 or 3 times to get enough pressure for the brakes to work. Everything from the Master cylinder to the brakes shoes are new but I cant get the air out. I have bled them the ole pump, pump, pump and hold way, reverse bleeding, bench bleeding the master cylinder, jacking up the front end, jacking up the back end and everything else anyone has suggested.
Is there anyone in the Birmingham, Alabama area that can help me bleed these brakes successfully? I will pay you in beer, money or whatever it takes to get the brakes to work right :)

[crankin]

I'm in Huntsville...
AU88 might be closer to you.

These are some suggestions from me...Common things to obscure suggestions.

MC piston coming all the way back? When you bench bleed...did you see this? also, silly question, but you never know...once you got it bench bleed, with no bubbles...you put the lid on and gravity bleed the brake lines in the right order (making sure to keep the fluid levels full)?

Wheel Cylinders new?
Are your shoes adjusted properly? If not...they might be too far away from the drums, when you hit the pedal, the shoes do not hit the drums and the pedal will go to the floor.

What happens when you unhook the line at the mastercylinder and plug it off and then try to pump it? Pedal get hard?

You sure that you don't have any kinks or hard bends in the line? Could be a blockage in one of your distribution blocks...

Now, what I would do...
Adjust your drum brake shoes up tight so the shoes won't move at all. Bleed. I would gravity bleed one wheel at a time, start with right rear, left rear then the fronts. You can take a long hose to the bleeder screw and back to the MC, pedal pump one wheel at a time...do this until no more bubbles. try to close the close the bleed screw while the pedal is in the downstroke. You will get some bubbles from time to time...but they should disappear.

After your done bleeding and you have a very firm pedal, back of the brake adjusters so they won't hang up.


Last if nothing works.
Could always go to a brake place and do a power bleeder on them.

[Alk-3]

this may be a stupid suggestion, but have you made sure your shoes are adjusted out properly? try adjusting them out so the wheel drags a fair bit (more than you would normally set them for) and then try the pedal. badly adjusted breaks will require the old double pump to stop. they don't even need to be THAT badly out of adjustment.
Short of that, take it to a break shop and let them figure it out ;P

[rosims]

I have just got thru fighting this fight for 3 months. Clamp off the rear brake hose and see if you have a full pedal. If you do the problem is in the rear. My problem wound up being wore out rear drums. I could not get the rear shoes to adjust. New drums, adjusted shoes, full pedal..

[artpeck]

I fought this for several months. I would second isolating the problem by clamping off the lines. There is no substitute for directionally pinning down the issue. After you have done that make sure you have the shoes properly adjusted just barely off the drum wall. If that doesn't work then you have very few places to look...leaks/bad hose or bad cylinders. There are many threads on this board about bad new cylinders including one from me. Not bad with a little wear but bad out of the box. That was my issue. When i put new land rover labeled cylinders in, the problem that had vexed me for months was gone. For what it is worth. I know that there are lots of good quality all makes parts but for some reason brake cylinders seem to be a place where oem gets you way better quality.

[yorker]

To bleed TLS fronts you want the drums & shoes off and the pistons clamped back into the cylinders tight to reduce the cylinder volume to the minimum. Then bleed, reassemble, adjust and you should have brakes. The built in problem is that the bleed screws are on the center line not the top of the cylinders.

http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/227377-Bleeding-brakes-***!-**-*!

[SafeAirOne]

Make sure the shoes are on the right way in the rear. TeriAnn's site details the differences in the shoes as far as the location of the adjuster pins goes. If they're not on the right way 'round, you won't be able to adjust them properly.

Here's the link: http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/landRoverFAQ/FAQ_rearbrakes.htm

[xrunnr]

Thanks everyone for replys! Most of the suggestions I have already tried but there are a couple of new ones that I will be trying out this weekend :) If it still doesn't work I will be back with more questions

[bobzinak]

Yorker is right, my white bible says to slaken off the brake shoes, which means that you must minimise the the slave cyl. to lessen the chance of air getting stuck in them. so back off on the brakes, bleed them then adjust up to drums...this has been a problem with 109 brakes forever. I knoe poeple who have pumped gallons of fluid through their system..I'm sur you will fgure it out with all the help you will find here. rove on, bobzinak.

[jac04]

Another tip is to utilize a Motive power bleeder in conjunction with the pump, pump, pump method. The power bleeder keeps the reservoir full and you can pump a lot of fluid through the system quickly, helping get all the air out.

[cedryck]

Right, a good pressure bleeder helps a lot, also makes it a one person job, try to avoid pushing the pedal though, this only aerates the fluid. You also might try, if you have the lousy MC, to raise the front of the car, making the master level, where as bubble will leave the master easier, also might try slacking off the output tube,,slightly messy here but sometimes air does leave there, Cheers.

[jac04]

Right, a good pressure bleeder helps a lot, also makes it a one person job, try to avoid pushing the pedal though, this only aerates the fluid.
Even a good pressure bleeder moves fluid fairly slowly through the system by itself. On difficult-to-bleed systems like the 11" brakes, you need to move the fluid more quickly to get the air out, hence the reason to pump the pedal. Not sure how pushing the pedal aerates the fluid (as long as the reservoir is kept full of fluid). I've bled the brakes on many vehicles using the pedal pump method without any issues at all.

[cedryck]

By moving the pedal too fast, any air in the master is amplified by fast piston agitating it about. That's it. What type of psi do you prefer for a 2a with a CB type master?

[localsonly]

No answers or suggestions on the brakes, but wanted to comment on your truck... Beautiful!