14 year old seeking advice!

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

hi everyone-

i am 14 years old, and (as long as everything works out....) was just given a free 1972 series 3. (at least, we BELIEVE it is a series 3!) it has been sitting in a barn for 30 years, and will need lots of work (new frame, rebuilt motor...) i've re-built two motors and know how to weld, so this shouldn't be a problem BUT... i know nothing about land rovers in general! i figured that i'd try to pick everyone's brain on some things. first: how do you tell a IIA and a III apart? second: we're going to be dragging it out of a barn in the next few weeks, and soaking it in oil. then we're going to see if the motor will spin, and if it will we are going to check the electrical system and see if it'll crank... chances are it wont, but who knows! does anyone have any advice on things to do before that?

any general advice you have would be great too!

thanks in advance!

ebben in vt

[ThePhotographer]

Congrats, welcome to the LR world. Series III have plastic front grilles not metal, and headlights on the front wings. Late IIA bugeyes have the lights on the outter wings but are in a bezel. Have any photos?

[John O from Jersey]

This might be useful: http://www.roversnorth.com/t-how-to-identify-your-land-rover.aspx

Late IIA's (69-71) had lights in the wings too just like Series III but the biggest difference cosmetically is probably the plastic "safety" dashboard introduced with Series III. And as Zach said the plastic grille.

Good luck and welcome to the insanity!

JO

[HybridIIA]

More info here: http://www.eastcoastrover.com/INFOseries.html

[disco2hse]

YES!!!

A lad after my own heart. I was doing similar at your age and at 15 I owned my own commercial fishing boat, after having rebuilt it (it was over 100 years old at the time). What a fantastic journey of discovery you are about to undertake. Wish I was there with you.

About the Landie, yes there are specific design differences between II's and III's. Not hard to make the distinction.

What you will need are workshop manuals. There is the Haines book, but to be honest it lacks too much useful information about specifics. You are much netter off with the actual Land Rover Parts books, Optional Parts Catalogue and Series III Workshop Manual. These three contain nearly all the model specific information you will need. This assumes a level of workshop competence and access to appropriate and specific tools. Those two things you will gather as you go along your journey.

Here's a link to workshop manuals http://www.landroverweb.com/landrover/pdf-land-rover-manuals/.

The other thing you will need are parts. Generally speaking, most Series III parts are relatively cheap. They were built in the bad old days of British Leyland ownership, but the upside is that there a lot of the parts were interchangeable between BL built vehicles and that means you can often parts made for other vehicles and sometimes make minor adaptations to get them to fit (indicator switches, dash switches, gauges,...).

How about you post some pics, we'd all love to be part of your rebuilt :)

[disco2hse]

Series III have plastic front grilles not metal,

Not strictly true. I have a metal Series III grill under the house. It is genuine Land Rover and has the Series III shape, but is metal. ;)

[bkreutz]

Not strictly true. I have a metal Series III grill under the house. It is genuine Land Rover and has the Series III shape, but is metal. ;)
I'd like to see a picture of that, I've never seen(or heard of) one, maybe they never came to North America?

[disco2hse]

Here ya go. It came from a Series III flat deck my wife's cousin used to own. It came to me with the Thomas winch now on the front of my Stage 1, which it why the solenoid box is still attached to the grill.

As a matter of interest, here is a snap of a recent score, capstan winch to restore (it's a heavy damn thing) :)

62586259

[Firemanshort]

Alan - I wager that metal S3 grill is a Kiwi thing. ;) Everything on your island is the same but just a little bit different.

Ol' Ebben in VT could probably rely on the metal versus plastic test for any rover dug out of a barn in New England.

(Cool capstan by the way)

[disco2hse]

haha that is true, even the crickets are "different".

http://www.naturespic.co.nz/i/15089IG08_w.jpg

About the grill, Ozzie and Kiwi, correct. The plastic ones tended to get smashed up on the farm too quickly.

[rwollschlager]

I was in a very similar situation to you not 7 years ago. i was given a series III 88 for christmas in 8th grade and it had been garaged since 1979. At least I had a solid frame and good wiring to start with.

to free the engine, pull the spark plugs and put marvel mystery oil down there and let is sit for a few days, then refill and wait some more, and you never know it might just free up.

When and if it is free, put new spark plugs in it, put a new battery in it, check the carb for debris, and then put a little fresh gas down it and see if it kicks. I was surprised when my 88 roared to life after 26 years of neglect and minor maintenance.

hopefully nothing is wrong with the engine or transmission, typically when one of those failed they either junked the truck or parked it. If those have/had oil in them the whole time hopefully the insides are still good.

Expect to replace everything rubber and all of your hydraulic systems will need a good sorting. Obtain a green bible or the workshop manual cd and it will provide step by step instructions for everything you will ever need to do to your rover, makes it less like a challenge and more into a big set of Lego's. Post pictures up here and more often then not the forum can also be an invaluable source of information as well.

What i cannot stress enough is take your time and do everything right the first time. When people told me this I thought I knew it all and half assed a few things to get it on the road, which ended up taking 3 times longer to fix in the long run. The trucks been sitting for how many years? A few more months wont hurt it.

The hardest part of the ordeal for me was resisting the teenage temptation to beat things up and treat it like a modern disposable car, especially in the woods. My 88 started out with a straight body with minimal dents, and now there isnt a straight panel on it. I've blown and rebuilt my transmission twice, rolled it over, and sunk it up to its dashboard in water (not all in the same day). I regret it now looking back as most/all situations were very avoidable, but I have a story to go with each dent, and the aluminum can be annealed and bent back when I'm done having fun with it one day.
Let the journey begin,
-Rob

p.s. as an incentive to finish it while your still young, its the ultimate chick magnet :thumb-up:

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

here's what i've determined: i have a series IIa, bugeye. is this the rover that was not produced much?

rwollschlager gave lots of tips for starting it up, but i have one question: when you say hydraulic lines, do you mean cooling/brake? i know it needs new brake lines, as that was the reason it was parked; the owner blew a brake line going down a hill and parked it in 1982. it was only driven for 11 years and has 88000 miles. ive heard that the running gear is only at half life... music to my ears :)!

no pictures yet, but they'll come soon.

any more tips would be great...

thanks!
ebben in vt

[Tim Smith]

Hey Ebben. Congrats on the rover! I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.

Normally hydraulics would include the brake system and clutch. If your truck had a hydraulic PTO fitted that would be another story (but a super cool and rare bonus). By the way, only use Castrol GT LMA in the brakes and clutch. Other than DOT 5 which is super expensive, LMA is one of the few brake fluids that play well with the rubber still found in Girling (read: rover) hydraulics. DOT 3 or 4 is going to get the truck going but it will slowly eat away at the rubber, so if you use it then plan to flush the system later.

For your truck though, the cooling system would probably also be included in the replacement scheme. Just the rubber coolant and heater lines though. And that is just because they are so old. I'm sure you could start it and run it with the original cooling lines, if they aren't broken, just to see that the engine is up to par. Eventually though, you'll need to replace them before you can trust in the truck.

Something else you should do is hammer around the frame to find the weak spots. Pay close attention to the front horns (the section of frame between the front springs), under the master cylinders and the rear stretches from the end of the transmission to the end of the springs. If any of that goes "thud" or "crunch" then do not drive the truck as it might collapse under it's own weight. It's all fixable and if you have the time then cut and weld away.

[Revtor]

Ebben, welcome to the party! (It's a slow, leaky, rusting party but a fun one!)

Check the Bugeye Registry thread and compare your trucks serial# to the list, see if you can maybe find it! You can post it there and get it added to the list.

Hydraulic systems use fluid in pipes to transfer motion a far distance. (for us it's brakes/clutch) Its how pushing your brake pedal in the cab can make your brake cylinders move at the far corners of the truck. Imagine if there was a mechanical system of rods and connectors that had to move all that distance - it would be a huge complicated system prone to rusting and lots of friction. Not what you'd want for critical things like brakes and clutches! The engineers use Hydraulics, because the pipes can be bent to run anywhere and efficiently transfer motion. Power steering systems use hydraulic pressure to assist the steering wheel, and the rams on construction equipment (shiny silver rods/pistons) use hydraulic power too - to get the power of the engine to move the digging arms.

Rover also made an accessory hydraulic pump that ran off the trucks transfer case. It could constantly circulate hydraulic fluid under great pressure to drive any number of accessories. Winch, diggers, etc etc. If you have this consider yourself very lucky..

The cooling system uses a pump to circulate water/coolant. Not under great pressure like you brakes or clutch, and its a constant flow, unlike your brakes/clutch which only move when you push a pedal. The coolant circulates through your engine, drawing heat out of the metal, and then when the hot coolant gets to the radiator, the air being drawn through the radiators fins pull the heat out of the coolant.. It then continues on its way back to your engine to grab more heat and give it to the air.


have fun!

~Steve

[Nium]

Welcome aboard! Couple of useful links

http://www.lrfaq.org/index.html
http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/indexPage.htm
http://www.clifton.nl/index.html?calvin.html

Cheers!

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

well, it's official. i got a land rover! if all goes as planned it'll be in our yard on sunday, but things don't always work as i plan them... ha!

i'll post some pics and the serial number once it gets here, but for now i'm one happy boy!

thanks for the tips, and as before, any more would be appreciated!

ebben

[o2batsea]

Ha, well the first thing you will learn is that "free" never means "free" or cheap. It's going to cost you several thousand just to get it on the road what with redoing the brakes, new tires, and all the other stuff you will have to do to get it thru inspection and licensing. Hope you have a way of building up cash reserves for your project, it's going to take plenty. That's the deal with old vehicles and Rovers in particular since they aren't very well put together.
Pretty much everything mechanical, that is, things that make is go and stop, are still readily available or can be substituted with modern equivalents. The things that are not available too easily are the body panels. As you may realize, these trucks were beaten to death for the most part, and finding good replacements is very difficult ($$$$$) as the spares were used up on them long ago.
They make some reproduction parts like doors and tailgates, but they tend to be poor quality.
Seek out those who retain socks of the original parts such as Pangolin, Rovers Down South and the like. Keep them on speed dial.
Brush up on those degreasing skills. Cruddy parts can be soaked clean in a lye solution. Very green, very earth friendly. Rusty parts can be soaked clean in a bath of Hydrochloric Acid (available at the hardware store in gallons). Wear rubber gloves and don't breathe near the stuff. Put your parts in and let them sit for a day or so. Rinse it all real good and dry with a heatgun or compressed air to reduce flash rust.

[disco2hse]

first thing you will learn is that "free" never means "free" or cheap. It's going to cost you several thousand just to get it on the road

Grinch.

[o2batsea]

Grinch.

What? Am I lying?

Oh and one other thing, don't put any aluminum parts in the above mentioned cleaning solutions. They will boil away.

[SalemRover]

Here are a couple ways to keep costs down. First off play to your strengths. I will bet half the board here wants to live vicariously through you, 14 and a rover project sounds dreamy to most of us. If you are in dire need of some part I am sure some grumpy old fart will part with some stuff hes saving for a project he knows he will never get to. We cannot list parts here for sale or wanted last I checked so I would search around for some boards where that happens. The guns and rovers board is a friendly and polite group, I am sure you will get some help there sourcing parts and advice. The 2.25 gas engine and ancillaries are pretty inexpensive as many folk have swapped that engine out. Which is great news for you as sourcing entire engines or ancillaries should be inexpensive. I dont think it is prudent to list the other parts vendors here but you should shop around, dont be afraid to ask for prices. There are 3 vendors of rover parts all in new england alone. There are technical manuals for your rover online in pdf form so I would start downloading those and use them as reference, back in the days before the interenet we called these manuals the green bible. Sounds like great fun and good luck. To have my one Debbie Downer moment DO NOT try and jury rig things, my cousin died doing just that on VW scirrocco 20 years ago, lets just say an open casket funeral was not an option. There are lots of good folks in the community that can help so be smart and learn to walk away when you dont feel you are in a safe situation. If it sat for 20 years a week or two while you get things sorted out properly isnt going to kill you.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

Ha, well the first thing you will learn is that "free" never means "free" or cheap.

i know... i just learned that with my free polaris sled and $1 sailboat.

just for everyone's entertainment, heres one of my short movies!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5KSRnrgyo

going to work on the rover a little this afternoon, so i'll post some pictures this afternoon.

ebben

[crankin]

Just watched the youtube...
This kid is going to have everyone on this forum liking him...

[crankin]

Ebben,
Get us pics of the land rover. Crawl all over that thing and snap pics of everything you can. Some of the "crucial" areas that we would like to see are the bulkhead (firewall) and the frame.

A new frame is going to be about $2000+ and the bulkhead is going to be hard to find, if they are not repairable.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

Ebben,
Get us pics of the land rover. Crawl all over that thing and snap pics of everything you can. Some of the "crucial" areas that we would like to see are the bulkhead (firewall) and the frame.

A new frame is going to be about $2000+ and the bulkhead is going to be hard to find, if they are not repairable.

will do that this afternoon. the firewall if fine, thanks god. the frame is shot in some places, but we can weld (dad and i) and we have a friend who works around the clock on jeeps. hopefully between the three of us we can weld it, but if not, we may have a problem. i can't put $2000 into just the frame. i'm hoping it's a gem in the dust and that i'll only have to put in $2000 TOTAL!

pics this afternoon...

ebben

[giftshopduane]

Ebben

By no means are you required to buy a new frame.. hopefully yours is repairable, if not a little trolling and you can find a good used or repairable frame for sale here in N.E., they are around. Don't be discouraged by the $$ amounts everyone throws around here, you seem to have a pretty good grip on things at the old age of 14 I am sure you and your dad and his connections will have no problem figuring out how to get that thing going. Best of luck I think your Series will be right at home alongside you in VT..you have found your way into a really great community, there is a lot of free stuff around here too.. especially advice wrong or right. Can't wait to see pics and a final product.

Best

[cedryck]

Wow this thread is getting popular,
So here I go, Not hitting the rover addiction till later in life, I learned a few important things. Read, Read, and read some more. The RIGHT information is critical. Don't waste your time with people or periodicals that think they know what they are talking about.
Take you time, tooooo many projects get muffed up because of people trying to meet ridiculous deadlines that they make themselves. Buy and use the right tools, cheap and ineffective tools make the easiest job harder. Employ help when needed, and keep in mind British cars, (trucks) are different, just different. Enjoy your project and ask when you are not sure.

[disco2hse]

Don't be discouraged by the $$ amounts everyone throws around here... I am sure you and your dad and his connections will have no problem figuring out how to get that thing going.

Just repeating this. ^^

Those things were made to be repaired in a field, and I know they can be because I've done it. Unless you want to build a show pony that is "original" and better than new, then frankly there are lots of parts that can be made, or made to fit.

I know plenty of people around here who, when they need new parts, they make them. I have done that myself.

You can throw as much money at a project as you like, or as little as you can. All depends on how much you are prepared to compromise on "originality". We call people who insist on everything being just as it was when it left the factory "rivet counters" :D

[lincoln lass]

Hi Ebben,

Looking forward to the photos.

Looking at this thread and having watched your you tube film, it is obvious that you are a very capable 14 year old and I look forward to your thread on rebuilding the landy.

I assume that your Dad has taught you the skills that you have acquired. If so you are very fortunate. Your Dad and you are a shining example.

Well done, shame we don't have more like you in the UK.

Regards Brian

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

last night, we took out all of the spark plugs and put kerosene in the pistons. then, when we checked the oil there was some thick sludge in the bottom. it didn't seem to have water in it... does anyone know what this is or how we can thin it out so we can drain the oil?

we forgot to bring the camera, so no pics yet. probably sunday when we bring it home.

ironically, we have two friends in our town that have the EXACT SAME ROVER! and they both swear by rover's north!

i don't have much to work with, because my dad does things like so: this isn't staged, its his pure geniusness at work6290 he told me to throw that in for your enjoyment.

pictures on sunday...

ebben

[giftshopduane]

How did he miss that?

[ThePhotographer]

last night, we took out all of the spark plugs and put kerosene in the pistons. then, when we checked the oil there was some thick sludge in the bottom. it didn't seem to have water in it... does anyone know what this is or how we can thin it out so we can drain the oil?

we forgot to bring the camera, so no pics yet. probably sunday when we bring it home.

ironically, we have two friends in our town that have the EXACT SAME ROVER! and they both swear by rover's north!

i don't have much to work with, because my dad does things like so: this isn't staged, its his pure geniusness at work6290 he told me to throw that in for your enjoyment.

pictures on sunday...

ebben

Nice! Where abouts in Vermont are you?

[jac04]

How did he miss that?

Answer:
"...its his pure geniusness at work."

[o2batsea]

I had a brand new Stihl weed whacker that wasn't so lucky. I unfortunately let a greenie try the tractor and his first order of business was to drive over $350 worth of tool. That will teach me!

[disco2hse]

The sludge is old oil mixed with various nasties that both come with oil and from the engine itself. Oil does more than lubricate, it also acts as a way to carry by-products of running away from those parts where it can do damage. Things like carbon deposits, metal grindings, sulphorous compounds, lead compounds (in countries that still put lead in petrol), etc. Mostly, these get trapped in the oil filter (which is why it needs to be replaced regularly) but smaller and heavy particles stay in the oil, which is why you need to replace the oil regularly.

Before running the engine, I would advise you get some engine flush and flush out the engine. Maybe even take the sump off and clean it out. If you take off the rocker cover you will probably find a lot of the same muck in there. While you're at it, pressure flush the cooling system too. It is likely to have globules of coolant (like jelly) and grains of corroded metal (looks like sand) stuck in the galleries.

Turning over the engine while the spark plugs are out and the rocker cover is off will give you the chance to see that important things are working, things like the water pump, alternator, valves are going up and down, pistons are going up and down, carburettor is working and fuel pump is pumping, etc. You can set the timing too.

[cgalpin]

What a fantastic story. Ebben you look and sound like a very capable young man and I'm looking forward to seeing you revive this rover.

There should be a pipe coming up from the sump on the side of the engine with the distributor, and it has a filter on top. You can pull off the filter and pour kerosine down it if you want to try dilute the sludge, but I'm not sure you need to. I'd just drain and refill with fresh oil. I agree on turning it over without the plugs, and if you didn't know you can hand crank it too if needed.

Good luck!

charles
p.s. Don't listen to old grumpy o2batsea!

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

first, to answer ThePhotographer's question, we're in norwich. near hartford, white river, and thetford.

now for the fun stuff... we finally got it home, and boy will we have a lot of work. all wheels are locked up, so that's the first project. then comes the engine, then if that'll run we'll do the frame. the body and interior are in good shape, so we won't have to mess with them. our plan is to get it running, take it for a few "victory laps", then park it in our new shed and tear the body off to do the frame. luckily, a lot of the rust is just "scale", so it'll scrape off. but don't get me wrong! parts of the frame will probably have to be rebuilt. we have a 95 year old machinist friend who said it looks like we can save the frame.. yeehaw!

here's some pictures: https://picasaweb.google.com/108889099811003186296/1970LandRoverSeriesIIa#

there's lots, i'll go through and clean them up... just wanted to get them up...

more of the undercarriage/running gear/inside soon... like tomorrow

ebben

[disco2hse]

:thumb-up:

Doesn't look too bad to me. Seen a lot worse than that. Mostly grubby and lacking in maintenance.

Your little sister is pretty good with the camera too. :D

[giftshopduane]

"We got ourselves a Land Rover, we got ourselves a Land Rover, whoa!"

The greatest song ever!! That's pretty much the way I felt driving mine back from picking it up... your sister I think is my new favorite person.

The truck is beautiful, I don't couldn't let something like that just sit in a barn for 30 years..

[Partsman]

Good for you Ebben, looks like a nice barn find. Looking at your pics, brings back memories of when I got my first Landie when I was 10. Fantastic, I look forward to watching your restoration / rehab of this one.

[Nium]

Great find! Congratulations that's a nice looking Late IIA (http://www.lrfaq.org/FAQ.2.Ident.LR.html#LandRoverSERIES) though it's not a Bugeye (sorry) still a great looking rig. I imagine you'll be up and running in no time.

[o2batsea]

Bulkhead looks like it will be the worst of it. Let me jump you a hundred miles ahead and have you order the repair parts from Pegasus Parts in the UK. Do not bother with any other course of action because it will either cost you time or money that will be better spent on other areas. Pegasus has done all the hard work, and their parts are exact fit replacement.
The frame. Surface rust is only part of it. What you don't see is an equal or greater amount of rust working away on the inside of the box section. If you plan on keeping the truck for a while you have three options.
Option one, do nothing. If it's rusting, then attempts at surface remediation are futile because it's going to die anyway despite your making it pretty. Get as much use as you can before the inevitable.
Option 2; strip it, patch it, galvanize it. Not just a sandblast, but a chemical strip that will get inside the fame.
Option 3: new galvanized frame.
Locked wheels are probably just drums that are rusted. New drums, shoes and wheel cylinders and you're back rolling. You'll want to refurb the master cylinder too of course.

[Tim Smith]

That looks great! Can't wait to see it moving under it's own power.

When you start oiling down the hardware, which I think will pretty much be everything, go ahead and oil down the springs, door hinges, locks and any other moving parts. You might be amazed to find that things just start to work again.

Start a spreadsheet and add to it time you have put in (figure $10/hr labor rates), parts needed (and then later bought) and by the end of it, you will know how much you've put into the truck. If the frame is usable, then I'd say go with it for now or repair as needed. Get the engine running and then replace all the brake system and probably steering tie rods and you could have a cheap runner.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

Can anyone coach Ebben on what needs to be done to free up the wheels? All four are locked and will not spin - even after we towed it over rough terrain loading and unloading from the trailer yesterday they remain stuck. We have learned the hard way to ask questions first and not bung things up worse than they are. Is there anything that he will destroy if he puts big heat to the area and tries to loosen them up with force?

"The Assistant" (E's dad)

ps - after looking over the frame today I think Ebben will likely be certified to the level of 2CORAATOS when his ride hits the road. Never heard of that rating? It stands for 2-Cases-Of-Rod-And-A-Ton-of-Scrap! Ha!

Rove-On!

[cgalpin]

Haha, I was wondering who was who :)

Ok, I'm no expert, but based on having mucked with the drum brakes recently I would recommend starting with one of the rears - just less moving parts. I'd have plenty of PB Blaster or some other penetrating fluid handy, crack the lug nuts and jack up the rear (under the diff should do fine). If you look at the backing plate from under the truck, lying in front of the rear wheel you will see a 17mm adjustment nut (called a snail cam). Spray some lubricant around it, trying to get it to go behind the nut (you might want to do this to all 4 up front). On the other side of the nut (inside the drum housing) is a snail shaped disc with ridges and if you turn towards the front of the truck it tightens the brake shoes to the drum, and if you turn toward the back of the truck it releases pressure. You'll want to try turn it rearward. If you can get it to release pressure, this might be all that is needed to relax the pressure. Try spin the wheel (forward should be easier than backward).

If not, then at this point you'll want to remove the lub nuts and wheel. There will be three screws on the face of the drum which you will need to remove with a large flat head screw driver (perhaps an impact one). More penatrant here might be useful. Once those are off, I'd take a rubber mallet to the drum and try tap around it in various spots. Perhaps try turn it again (put a wheel on or carefully use a pry bar against the lugs. Otherwise take a block of wood and place it against the back edge of the drum and strike the wood with a big hammer (I am sure E knows the term BFH by now). Do this at alternating points around the drum to try evenly put pressure all the way around the drum. If the snail cam is backed off, the drum should break free from the shoes at some point. Once off, you can investigate further, see how the hub turns without the drum etc.

As others have said, get a manual or take a look at the ones online so you can see what the drum internals look like before going in.

Oh, once freed up, it's likely you can just put the drum back on and adjust the snail cam and it will work until you get parts to redo it all. Depending on the condition of the drums you might be able to get them turned. The only parts that really should need replacing are the wheel cylinders and shoes (and then possibly the drums).

Good luck!

[o2batsea]

Count on the brakes being completely jacked up. What usually happens with old vehicles is that they sit in the snow, ice, damp grass, mud whatever for a long time and the bare steel of the brake parts turns to flaky rust. I mean really, what else would you want to be in top condition besides the brakes? Buy all new. Don't pinch pennies in this area by trying to resurrect 40-odd year old stuff, like Charles does.
As he alluded, the retaining screws on the drums will be the worst part of the demolition. I wouldn't worry about trying to save them, they are strictly to aid in the manufacturing process by holding the drums in place until the next guy down the line could put the wheels on. Drill 'em out and vice grip the shanks after the drum's off. Yer gonna trash the drums so don't be too ginger with them either.
You can just put the wheels back on the hubs without drums if you need to roll it. If the thing can go into gear that should keep it from rolling down the hill into the creek. Does the transmission brake work?

Alternately, you might consider putting pre ABS Discovery 1 or Range Rover axles under it. These come with discs front and rear, are fully compatible with the Series drive shafts, have a taller gear for better highway driving, and are easy to get parts for. For about what you'll spend on new Series brake parts you'll get both front and rear from your friendly Used parts guy and probably have change left over. They're much better axles hub to hub and the series wheels will bolt right up. Other than being a tad wider than the series axles you'd never be able to tell outwardly. Cutting off the coil spring perches and fitting leaf spring perches is a simple, tried and true and well documented Rover conversion. My $.02.
Oh and you might also consider Parabolic springs with military shackles. Gets the thing up in the air a bit more.

[rwollschlager]

As he alluded, the retaining screws on the drums will be the worst part of the demolition. I wouldn't worry about trying to save them, they are strictly to aid in the manufacturing process by holding the drums in place until the next guy down the line could put the wheels on.


False, they center the drum. Not a crucial component but they do serve their purpose. http://siteground237.com/~gunsandr/showthread.php?1886-Those-3-Brake-Drum-Screws


Alternately, you might consider putting pre ABS Discovery 1 or Range Rover axles under it. These come with discs front and rear, are fully compatible with the Series drive shafts, have a taller gear for better highway driving, and are easy to get parts for. For about what you'll spend on new Series brake parts you'll get both front and rear from your friendly Used parts guy and probably have change left over. They're much better axles hub to hub and the series wheels will bolt right up. Other than being a tad wider than the series axles you'd never be able to tell outwardly. Cutting off the coil spring perches and fitting leaf spring perches is a simple, tried and true and well documented Rover conversion. My $.02.
Oh and you might also consider Parabolic springs with military shackles. Gets the thing up in the air a bit more.

Much easier said than done. The stock series axles are simple to work with. The taller ratios in the pre ABS Discovery 1 or Range Rover axles will make it harder for your truck to climb those hills of vermont unless you have the power to turn them. Also the rear axle may bolt up trouble free with minor welding, but replacing the front axle will introduce a slew of problems with the steering geometry, and unless done properly, it will introduce the undesirable handling sensation known as bump-steer.These axles may be in the picture for you later on down the road if you're planning some serious modifications and have the knowledge and skills to carry them out, but for now they would introduce unnecessary complications and hassles.

If you do go for the parabolic springs with military shackles, it will alter the angle of your pinion, which is easily corrected with shims like these: http://www.bluetorchfab.com/Product/849/BTF-Steel-Degree-Shims-4-Degree.aspx It is a common and easy modification.

A car needs to do three things, start, stop, and not catch on fire. Focus on achieving those first and then worry about modifications later. You'll find that these are incredibly capable machines bone stock, get it going first then figure out what you personally think needs improving next.

-Rob

[o2batsea]

See? What'd we tell ya. Right or wrong you'll get lots of opinions.
Rob loves his drum screws, I don't. He loves his drum brakes, I don't. The gearing issues are easily overcome by using the Series diffs in the RRC axles. It's all out there on the web; pictures and step by step instructions about making the coil axles work on the Series.
The taller springs and shackles, yup the caster shims will be a good idea. I have some around here somewhere from my old leaf sprung days....Hey I even have a set of parabolics and mil shackles I'll let you have for shipping.
Another old school trick is to put the brakes from a 109 on the 88. The 109 drums are bigger and give you better stoppy. I have a set for ya if you want to go that way. Nothing wrong with drum brakes. I could always lock 'em up up with a good sharp jab on the pedal, however a screeching slide in a Series truck is not for the faint of heart. Especially the red headed kind.

[jopa]

Simple way to free up rusted/stuck brakes on drums with MINIMAL dissassembly. On the rear leave the tires/rims on- Remove the axle shaft and flange, remove the hub nut fasteners and loosen up the hub nut...then wiggle the tire/rim..it will all come free...fronts are similar- just may have to strip down a FHW if they are fitted. Ive done that trick in the field several times on hulks that have been sitting for many many a year.
I may have some parts to donate to your cause- shoot me an email off the board- John

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

Simple way to free up rusted/stuck brakes on drums with MINIMAL dissassembly. On the rear leave the tires/rims on- Remove the axle shaft and flange, remove the hub nut fasteners and loosen up the hub nut...then wiggle the tire/rim..it will all come free...fronts are similar- just may have to strip down a FHW if they are fitted. Ive done that trick in the field several times on hulks that have been sitting for many many a year.
I may have some parts to donate to your cause- shoot me an email off the board- John

you have a private message... i couldnt find your email

[cgalpin]

Ebben, any more pictures or an update?


False, they center the drum. Not a crucial component but they do serve their purpose. http://siteground237.com/~gunsandr/showthread.php?1886-Those-3-Brake-Drum-Screws
Rob it's interesting you say this. I recently put new drums on the front of my truck and they only came with one hole. I now have a noticeable pulse in the pedal as well as the fronts are making a noise that sounds like the drum is not centered under light braking. I'll try refitting them with the single hole at 12 oclock and also swap the rears (just turned) to the front and see if it resolves the noise issue.

[disco2hse]

Rob it's interesting you say this. I recently put new drums on the front of my truck and they only came with one hole. I now have a noticeable pulse in the pedal as well as the fronts are making a noise that sounds like the drum is not centered under light braking. I'll try refitting them with the single hole at 12 oclock and also swap the rears (just turned) to the front and see if it resolves the noise issue.

The single hole is for the Series III. On the later model you do not need to locate the drum as in the earlier models, instead the screw is used to release the drum if it is stuck on the hub (brakes are jammed or it is rusted on). You basically insert the screw and wind off the drum. The hole should be threaded.

I suppose of you are using them on a II or IIA you could drill and counter sink some new holes. Like I said earlier about modifying bits to suit their intended purpose.

PS. Changing axle housings from original to a later model is not trivial. KISS.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

more pictures at the end of that album. ( i put up the link on page 4). i'll put it in my signature though. today we took the front tires and drums off, and the front wheels spin now! i even have some brake pad left... now tomorrow is the day for the back wheels.

we know we have to replace the cylinder and springs, so we'll put together an order for roversnorth! look forward to calling them. i have already had to call them once, and they were very helpful!

how do you pull the master cylinder and shoes? no, we don't have a manual, but i'll search around for one!

thanks!
ebben

[crankin]

more pictures at the end of that album. ( i put up the link on page 4). i'll put it in my signature though. today we took the front tires and drums off, and the front wheels spin now! i even have some brake pad left... now tomorrow is the day for the back wheels.

we know we have to replace the cylinder and springs, so can we get them at an auto parts store?

thanks!
ebben

More than likely negative on the parts store. You have yourself one of them fancy British cars. ;)

The cylinders are one of those things that can be hit or miss on quality with after market brands, such as Britpart. I purchased a brake rebuild kit from a competitor's website. Out of the four cylinder's one was bad...but they happily replaced it for free. But all in all..I save some money buying aftermarket instead on NOS (new old stock).

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

Here's a link to workshop manuals http://www.landroverweb.com/landrover/pdf-land-rover-manuals/.


that link only has the manuals for series III, would it still be the same?

[cgalpin]

It should be good enough for most things, or at least until you get your hands on a hard copy of the IIA ones.

It was good advice someone gave to leave the drums off if you just want to get it rolling so you can put it in the shed. You'll want to pull the hubs and replace seals (and anything else needed) and grease up the bearings and once you have the hubs off, the brakes are much easier to get to.

That said, there are springs top and bottom that come off. Take note of how they are installed. Then the cylinder is held on by two bolts from the other side of the backing plate (and you'll need to disconnect the brake line). The bottom of the shoes are held by a retaining ring which will have two bolts holding it to the leading shoe. Undo those and the bottoms of the shoes will come off. It can all be done with the hubs in place but harder.

Well done so far!

[Partsman]

Here you go Ebben, this is the manual you'll want to have at your side:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1855205548?tag=roverhaulcom-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=1855205548&adid=0HEJ4NZR2JSKATZZB8YN&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roverhaul.com%2Fbooks.htm

Well worth the investment

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

How do I "pull the hubs"?

[cgalpin]

See this parts page provided by our hosts for the basic layout. You have selectable lockers on the front which have a few more moving parts and I am not familiar with, so I'd start at the rear if I were you.

http://roversnorth.com/c-69-hub-assembly.aspx

The manual should provide step by step instructions, but if you look at the parts involved and work your way in it should be pretty self explanatory. You will want to read the manual before re-assembling and make sure you set the preload on the bearings properly.

But I'd wait until you have it in the shed before pulling the hubs.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

See this parts page provided by our hosts for the basic layout. You have selectable lockers on the front which have a few more moving parts and I am not familiar with, so I'd start at the rear if I were you.

http://roversnorth.com/c-69-hub-assembly.aspx

The manual should provide step by step instructions, but if you look at the parts involved and work your way in it should be pretty self explanatory. You will want to read the manual before re-assembling and make sure you set the preload on the bearings properly.

But I'd wait until you have it in the shed before pulling the hubs.

no garage yet... we're still building it. i think we're going to have to lay down some plywood and do this outside.... i think i'm going to pull the rear wheels/drums and see if i can get them to spin.

oil filter is on order... it'll be in next week.

the frame is only broken in two spots, and that is the front horns on both sides. we shouldn't have to take the body off to do those... yay!

ebben

[mongoswede]

"The frame is only broken in 2 spots" ;) Thats signature material right there.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

E's ignorant assistant (dad) is wondering if a set of free 265 75/R15 tires will fit on his wheels/rims. They currently have 225 75/R15 tires on them. We are just trying to get this project rolling to assess the other issues before we throw much money into this - but we don't want all four tires to roll out in different directions on the 1st test run!

Good news - the full repair manuals are on order and should be here in a week or so. Ebben can get advice that is actually usable! Ha!

The attached photo is E working on an overhaul of an Atomic 4 - he bought a 32' sailboat on craigslist for $1.00. Another story....

By the way, to pull the hubs do we just remove the six bolts on the hub?

Thanks!

[cedryck]

If your talking about hubs, the rear, the six bolts you talk about will remove the axle shaft on the rear, the long or short one,,,,

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

We have the front end up in the air now and are trying to get to the bearings to lube them, and perhaps access any seals back in there which he would need to replace. The drums are off now and the assembly has been cleaned. Not sure what to do next. Probably should have started in the back but E got to the jack first and lifted the front.

Jay (E's old man)

[cgalpin]

Tires will work fine.

I can't tell you what's in those selectable hubs, but if you start removing it, things should become clear. Once the hub is off, you'll see the wheel bearings and use the parts pictures here as a guide. There will be an outer nut (there is a tool you can buy but a chisel will knock it free), then a lock washer which you need to bend up, then remove the lock washer and inner nut and heavy washer. Then you'll see the bearings. The whole hub assembly can then come off (disconnect brake lines).

hth
charles

[TedW]

63526353

Ebben: I see that your cat has discovered your truck. It is a known fact that cats (and dogs) love rovers - especially 1970 IIA's. My cat sleeps in the spare tire every night, and earns her keep by harvesting rodents that might otherwise chew on the wiring.

Enjoy your truck! What is your Vin#? Our trucks might have been on the assembly line at the same time.

Ted

[ducttape]

This is going to be a great thread! Congrats!

[disco2hse]

We have the front end up in the air now and are trying to get to the bearings to lube them, and perhaps access any seals back in there which he would need to replace. The drums are off now and the assembly has been cleaned. Not sure what to do next. Probably should have started in the back but E got to the jack first and lifted the front.

Jay (E's old man)

Stick back together and if anything like wheel bearings or seals need fixing (when you have it running), do it then. Chances are they will be fine. No point in replacing things that are not broken or worn out.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

so after our brief break, we are back. we got the back tires off and are now working on the drums... boy they are stuck! we also got oil, brake fluid, and best of all, free sets of winter and summer tires! tomorrow will be taking the rear drums off, then figuring out the clutch and motor. we also have got a green bible, and it sure is helpful!

more soon...

ebben

[o2batsea]

Guess you're good then. Since you aren't saving the drums, a sledge works.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

Guess you're good then. Since you aren't saving the drums, a sledge works.
actually, the drums are in pretty good shape.. i'm going to try to save them... running low on money :)

[disco2hse]

actually, the drums are in pretty good shape.. i'm going to try to save them... running low on money :)

Yeah, that's the smarter move. These things are still carefully engineered and too much bashing and banging in the wrong place can be expensive. We joke about the 5lb spanner and in a couple of places that is an accurate description, but in nearly all other cases you need to be careful in how you undo and release stuck bits otherwise other bits you wanted to keep get busted too.

[o2batsea]

actually, the drums are in pretty good shape.. i'm going to try to save them... running low on money :)
Then save up for when you DO have money for new brakes. If there is one area where trying to save money is NOT SMART, it is the braking system. Following closely in second place; tires. Highly recommend new master cylinder, lines, flex hoses, shoes, drums, wheel cylinders and associated fixings. Any advice to the contrary is foolhardy.

[giftshopduane]

+2!!

[disco2hse]

Then save up for when you DO have money for new brakes. If there is one area where trying to save money is NOT SMART, it is the braking system. Following closely in second place; tires. Highly recommend new master cylinder, lines, flex hoses, shoes, drums, wheel cylinders and associated fixings. Any advice to the contrary is foolhardy.

1, He is 14 years old. Let him make his decisions.
2, Brake drums are unlikely to fail unless they are cracked or severely worn.
3, Agreed on other areas that may be prone to failure (lines, etc.)
4, Being a good mechanic is not shown in how much money you spent, but in how careful you were in the execution of the task. A sledge hammer is only needed in extreme cases. Otherwise, there are better methods for removal. It is more productive to investigate why the drums may be stuck than going hell-for-leather and smashing at it. For example, judicious application of heat may be enough to break rusty bits apart.

5, At Ebben, take any advice you read on a forum with a grain of salt. Including my comments. I will never drive your vehicle and it is probable that others on here not either, so any decisions you make you will carry the consequences, and the cost. Your car, your choice. From what I have seen and read, I am sure you will make a good choice.

Finally. I and others have not seen your actual car. Things get stuck for a reason and we can't see that from the comfort of our chairs.

[Partsman]

1, He is 14 years old. Let him make his decisions.
2, Brake drums are unlikely to fail unless they are cracked or severely worn.
3, Agreed on other areas that may be prone to failure (lines, etc.)
4, Being a good mechanic is not shown in how much money you spent, but in how careful you were in the execution of the task. A sledge hammer is only needed in extreme cases. Otherwise, there are better methods for removal. It is more productive to investigate why the drums may be stuck than going hell-for-leather and smashing at it. For example, judicious application of heat may be enough to break rusty bits apart.

5, At Ebben, take any advice you read on a forum with a grain of salt. Including my comments. I will never drive your vehicle and it is probable that others on here not either, so any decisions you make you will carry the consequences, and the cost. Your car, your choice. From what I have seen and read, I am sure you will make a good choice.

Finally. I and others have not seen your actual car. Things get stuck for a reason and we can't see that from the comfort of our chairs.


Well said Alan!! :thumb-up:

[o2batsea]

1, He is 14 years old. Let him make his decisions.
Not questioning your parenting skills or anything, but, really? You'd let a 14 YO decide? If I was Dad, I wouldn't want my boy out on the road with anything less than perfect brakes, tires and seat belts.
I suppose you Kiwis have different ways, so....

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

Not questioning your parenting skills or anything, but, really? You'd let a 14 YO decide? If I was Dad, I wouldn't want my boy out on the road with anything less than perfect brakes, tires and seat belts.
I suppose you Kiwis have different ways, so....

my dad works on an ambulance... so we are being careful about it. we are planning on putting in new cylinders, lines, and shoes in. we aren't going to do drums because they're in good shape... seat belts are in good shape... we got 2 sets of tires, both of which are almost brand new.... so we're good on that too.....

thanks for concerns though!

ebben

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

so we are thinking we are going to try to fire the motor next week... but our gas tank turned to crap, so would the carb still work if we put a tank on the roof and gravity fed gas?

we are going to do a mass order to rovers north in the next week or so... there goes some money :)

ebben

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

by the way... we're putting in new brake lines/hoses/cylinders... i assume to determine whether ours is a "single system" or "dual system" is to determine the number of reservoirs.... we only have one... would that be single system?

thanks!
ebben

[stomper]

Sounds like you have a single system for brakes. To be sure though, count the number of brake lines coming out of the brake master cylinder. It is attatched to the brake pedal tower.

Gravity feeding the carb from a plastic gas can on the roof should work fine to get it started. Have you checked the clutch hydrolics yet? you may want to add these parts to your RN order, then you will have all the big components addressed to get it moving under it's own power. (providing the transmission or engine are operating properly that is).

[crankin]

so would the carb still work if we put a tank on the roof and gravity fed gas?


Yep. It will work.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

last night was very exciting. we changed the oil, filters, gas, and checked valves for proper oiling, and everything went great. we then proceeded to hook up a battery, and to our surprise lights turned on! we'll have to get some new lights as some blew out, but the flashers, headlights, brake lights, and dash lights work. the inside does not, but I think we can probably replace the bulb and it worked fine.

now for the exciting part... at 9:30 at night, we turned the key and to our surprise the engine cranked nicely! we had disconnected the fuel line so the engine would not start, but it cranked nice and all oilers are working... i'll post some movies this afternoon...

ebben

[disco2hse]

Very happy for you :)

Getting closer and closer...

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

tuesday was also a very exciting day for us... we got the rover to run! the fuel pump feed line has a leak, so we put a gas container on the roof and my dad ran a manual fuel pump... it started a little rough, but after a few tries it started up and sounded like a normal (but rather loud :)...) motor.

as we were cranking the engine to test the spark plugs, it even started firing on three cylinders!

next project is to get the fuel pump going, then we'll look into the clutch and see what condition the transmission is in...

we will be sending out an order to RN for new brake lines and some fuel lines in the next week or so...

we also got a movie of it running and of us cranking it for the first time, i'll put that up tonight or tomorrow!

ebben

[ThePhotographer]

Congrats!

[cgalpin]

Well done. Something isn't right though... got it, no pictures or video!

[disco2hse]

So anyway, you going to make some room on Maverick for the Landie :D

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

video FINALLY finished uploading.... though it might stay processing through the night....

here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G81Hyyhg4DM

ebben

[Partsman]

Nice Ebben! Good for you. Keep up the good work.
~Harvey~

[cgalpin]

Awesome!

[rwollschlager]

next project is to get the fuel pump going, then we'll look into the clutch and see what condition the transmission is in...

we will be sending out an order to RN for new brake lines and some fuel lines in the next week or so...



First off, congratulations on getting it running!
Fuel pumps are not expensive so if your's is having issues it might be best to replace it now.
As far as brake lines, not to knock our hosts, but it would be cheaper to get the fittings from our host, and find brake line at a local auto parts store and bend it and flare it yourself. If you don't have a flaring tool or a bender you can rent them for free at auto-zone, its a valuable skill to have which will be applicable to any car you'll have in the future.

-Rob

[Boston]

Can't wait for my truck to be ready to fire up.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

Hi ya'll

Things are going grand here... front panels are off and the drive assembly (front hubs) are coming apart nicely - but the chrome on the swivel balls is worn away over about half of the surface. Are the balls something Ebben can smooth out/clean up and have it work ok? or do you think it will leak oil like a faucet. The swivels are very expensive and we really would like to make these work. Please comment on the ball situation and any advice you have to getting the big seal retainer ring off for the ball seals - they look very distorted/rusty and we hope not to wreck the housings that they mount to. The mounts cost more than we have in the money tin!

A big box came from Rovers North today - Ebben has his work cut out this summer! Ha! fuel pump, brake stuff, yup... lotsa fix'ns to make her safe for rip'n through Vermonts vast virgin forests.

"The Assistant" a.k.a. Dad

the photo is Ebben and his 'real' boss! Ha!

[disco2hse]

Swivels will probably need to be replaced, unless you can get second hand ones that are still good. Hunt around for someone who is wrecking. Check out the parts required from the parts manual and see how much you actually need to replace. You should do the bearings, etc. at the same time, and the bushes too. Front end is something you can't really scrimp on.

Hopefully, there won't be too many other big expenses as you work around.

[Revtor]

If the swivels are pitted, the seals will get chewed up and they will leak oil. If you are on a tight budget, I'd say keep you eyes out for a decent second hand pair, but in the mean time fill your swivels with one-shot grease. It was designed to stop crappy swivels from leaking. It'll stay in place so you can move on to other areas of the rig.

But keep your eyes out for new used swivels.. because any holes that would let oil out will let dirt and water in!! Not good in the long term.

congrats on the progress!!

~Steve

[cgalpin]

I'm glad to hear it's moving along cough we need more pictures cough.

People have had success filling the holes in the swivel balls with JB Weld, including myself although with minor pitting and not a long enough period to declare total success. You clean them really thoroughly, slather on some JB Weld, and sand smooth once set, perhaps a coat of epoxy paint on top. But If I were you I'd do this and go with one-shot grease just in case.

[disco2hse]

Any updates guys?

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

I just wanted to check in since I haven't said anything in a while. unfortunately, we didn't accomplish much over the summer. dad was busy with his boat shed (which we'll put the rover under!) and i was mowing lawns and working at a camp. hopefully we will have more time to work on it soon. we received clutch parts which are next on the list to go in!

onward!
ebben

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

today was an exciting day. we pulled both clutch cylinders (which need to be replaced) and are beginning to think about patching the swivels. though we have a question! there is a ring on the back of the hub assembly that acts as a seal around the swivel. this DESPERATELY needs to be replaced. to pull these rings do we have to remove the whole hub assembly... if so... how on earth would we do that? it seems like there is no quick way to do it.

thanks in advance and sorry for the long hiatus!

ebben

[cgalpin]

Good to hear

There is no quick way, but the good news is that you do want to tear down the swivel balls and give it a good thorough cleaning and check the bearings. It likely just need a cleaning and fresh oil but you want to do that. It will give you a chance to access and fix the brakes as well.

charles

[Partsman]

That's right Ebben, there isn't an easy way to do this, but as Charles said, it gives you an opportunity to do the other things that need doing. Take this chance to do all of the jobs that need doing, and do them right the first time.
Harvey

[stomper]

I think I have read that some people cut the seal open, and instal it with the cut facing up. that allows you to avoid the disasembly. I'm sure others will chime in on this, and whether is is a bad idea or not. If there is any pitting on the swivel balls, it will tear up your new seal in short order though, so you are probably best off taking it all apart to repair or replace the swivel balls.

[crankin]

I think I have read that some people cut the seal open, and instal it with the cut facing up. that allows you to avoid the disasembly. I'm sure others will chime in on this, and whether is is a bad idea or not. If there is any pitting on the swivel balls, it will tear up your new seal in short order though, so you are probably best off taking it all apart to repair or replace the swivel balls.

TerriAnn...
http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/LRhubseal.htm

Also, the epoxy filler technique is mentioned.

Here it is in more detail:
http://forums.roversnorth.com/showthread.php?12858-Can-I-save-these-swivel-balls
http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37019

I will add my two cents...if you got everything apart go ahead and do the seal right, don't cut it.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

thanks everyone for your advice. i think we are going to pull the swivels and do the jb weld trick!

now on tires... i had a set, but the tire place decided that it wasn't good to put them on, and they they said they wouldn't sooo.... we're in the market for some cheap tires. the only thing is that they'll fit on a LR well, and have some bite to them. (i have a job up a steep driveway, and in the winter it'd be nice to take the rover up :)).

any help will be great!

thanks!
ebben

[crankin]

There are plenty of threads on the forum that discuss what tires fit well.

Do you have 15" or 16"?

Do a search for "tires" on here. I am partial to Toyo open country

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

we have 15" rims. i did a search and we're having trouble finding cheap!

[o2batsea]

Tires, along with brakes, are one of those areas that you definitely don't want to cheap on. You'll find that mud tires are redonkulously expensive, due to the fact that they have much more rubber in them than a comparable road tire. In addition they usually have more plies as well as stronger sidewalls.
There are plenty of choices for 15 inch wheels. Generally speaking, Goodrich mud terrains, Goodyear KM2s are the top choices. For a little more streetability try Goodyear Dura Trac.

[GeniusAndHisAssistant]

we ended up getting hercules terra trac.... was a bargain at $101/tire PLUS free shipping! hopefully they'll work well. now off to the tire shop to have them put on the rims, and then the rover gets to be towed into the shop so that it the frame can be welded!

ebben