Restored Series III 109 2.25 Won't Restart

[mjones1700]

I just spent the last 2 1/2 years restoring my landy. It was a major body/frame restoration. The only mechanical things I did was replacing all the fluids and lube it up and replace the plugs. I did replace the gas tank and sending unit.

I was so excited to crank her up again after 2 1/2 years. However, she will not start (starter turns fine but never fires once). I first thought it was a fuel line issue, but there is new fuel in the fuel line filter, plus it smells like gas is getting to the carb. I also tried some starting fluid without benefit. Now I think it is a spark issue. I neither see nor hear a spark when I pull the plug wires off a touch. I'm getting a new voltmeter today to test the lines to the coil.

I did have virtually all the body panels off. I didn't intend to change any wiring but possibly I did by accident.

With that said, I will add the caveat that I'm medical . . . not mechanical. I know how the human body works but not engines. The wiring to the ignition looks to me like a pile of spaghetti wrapped in electrical tape inside the dash. So, if you have ideas for me, tell me like I’m a mechanical bimbo. Any help would be appreciated as I'm drooling to get this baby back on the road. Thanks.

[Ross72SIII]

Take the voltmeter to it systematically and Ill bet you'll find a lead on your problem. Or you'll find a whole bunch of new problems. Either way, it will be interesting. There is a very good chance you nicked or cut something taking the body apart.

Ive found over and over its usually me overlooking something silly when the Rover wont start. Such as the fuel tank sender unit reading 3/4, but having no fuel in the tank...then realizing thats about right because I havent filled it up in a week and a half.

[crankin]

There are some many things that this could be...

Here are some things:
Low battery (sitting for 2 years will drop the voltage of the battery)
Poor Ground connections
Starter motor has shorted windings

Are you sure you are getting fuel to the carb? You have taking the fuel line off and turned the car over to watch fuel pump out of the tube? Sometimes the diaphragm will dry and crack in your fuel pump after sitting dry for some time.

Because I am lazy I do not want to type out all the rest. Here is Terriann's FAQ that I have ripped off...but will supply the link to the original page so that you can read more.

Symptom: Engine just does not start and there is weak or no spark at the plugs. (a low battery or starter motor with shorted windings can cause the voltage to be too low to create a spark when trying to start the engine)

Likely cause: If you are not out of petrol, the ignition switch is in the on position, your battery is fully charged, you have a good ground connection between the engine and battery ground and your starter motor does not have shorted windings then it could be any part of the ignition system.

First check the point gap (This should always be your first check). If the gap looks OK, remove the distributor cap, put the engine out of gear, mechanical brake set and have someone turn the the engine over while you watch the inside of the distributor. Verify that the rotor is turning, the brass bar at the top is still there and that the points open and close as the lobes move. Also visually inspect the centre contact of the cap to assure that the sprung contact is still sprung and in good condition and that there are no carbon trails or shallow cracks leading sway from the centre contact.

With the starter motor not turning use a volt meter or continuity lamp to verify that there is 12V (lamp is lit) when the points are open and zero volts when the points are closed. You place one lead on the insulated side of the points and the other on a good ground. If there is 12V when the insulated contact is open AND closed then either the points are not really closing or there is no electrical path between both contacts. Readjust points or replace them if the contacts are bad.

If there is NO 12V on the insulated side of the contacts you need to trouble shoot the primary circuit using the method previously described.

If the primary circuits checks out as OK, the points are working correctly and the points have the proper point gap, the fault could be either the secondary circuit or the timing is off by a long way (usually if the timing is way off it will try to start or a cylinder will fire at a wrong time). The parts of the secondary circuit that will keep anything from firing are the coil, high voltage wire between the coil and distributor, centre connector of the distributor cap and the rotor. If a visual inspection doesn't identify the bad part, swap out components with new ones.

Check out the rest of her page because it has a lot of good information. http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/landRoverFAQ/FAQ_ignitionTrouble.htm

[mjones1700]

Thanks I will go through all of those. I didn't mention but it has a brand new high end battery that is working great and I put in a new starter that was working great (while it was running 2 1/2 years ago) just before I shut it down for restoration. The starter cranks the engine like a top. But I will check the other things. Now, if it was just a fuel problem, would it at least hit now and then with starter fluid sprayed into the carb?

I would guess, once I get my voltmeter, to check the line from the ignition (with the ignition on) to the coil by disconnecting it from the coil and testing it to ground. If that end is hot, then testing the wire coming off the coil on the other side (not the high voltage wire).

Now a dumb question. I noticed some type of round switch mounted just below the air filter (RHD) that has male wire clips but no wires leading to it. I don't remember ever taking anything off of this but I'm not sure what it is for.

Thanks

[TeriAnn]

Oky Doky

Think of the distributor points as an on - off switch and the distributor cap & rotor as a rotary switch that switches electricity from one spark plug to another.

Your ignition switch provides 12V to one side of the coil. The other side of the coil has a wire that goes to the side of the distributor at the base just below the cap. Inside the distributor one side of the points is connected to the wire from the coil and a condenser (car term for capacitor) This is how 12V gets to one of the points contacts. The other point contact goes to ground.

So when the points are open (not touching one another) and the ignition is in the on position, you should be able to measure 12V on both the connections on the side of the coil, the connection at the base of the distributor and on one of the two distributor points.

When the points are closed and the ignition switch is on the on position, your voltmeter will read zero volts at both point contacts and at both ends of the wire going between the coil and the side of the distributor.

All this will tell you if you properly have electricity going to the ignition circuit. The coil creates a high voltage surge when the points close. The high voltage goes down the centre wire to the middle of the distributor top, through a spring loaded carbon contact to the center of the rotor. The electricity flow along the copper bar on the top of the rotor to a contact along the outside top of the distributor cap , along the spark plug wire to the spark plug where the high voltage jumps the gap with a spark.

The intensity and duration of the spark is dependent upon the point gap and the spark plug gap. The wider the spark plug gap the hotter the spark assuming that the coil can generate enough voltage. Too wide a gap and the coil can not generate enough voltage to reliably jump the gap. You set your plug gap according to the manual which is in a range a healthy stock coil can handle. The duration the points stays open affects the amount of high voltage your coil generates. So it is important that your points be adjusted to the gap called for in the manual. If the points slip so the gap is too small you get a very weak spark.

The rotor in your distributor is rotated by a shaft connected to a gear on the engine cam shaft. For your engine to work it is imperative that the spark arrive at the cylinder at the correct time. This is set by rotation the body of the distributor per the manual.

That's how the ignition system generates a spark and how it delivers the spark to the correct location.

First thing is to make sure you have 12V going to one of the point contacts when the points are open and that there are zero volts at the points when the points are closed.

Hope this helps you figure out the ignition system.

[crankin]

Now a dumb question. I noticed some type of round switch mounted just below the air filter (RHD) that has male wire clips but no wires leading to it. I don't remember ever taking anything off of this but I'm not sure what it is for.


Can you take a picture?

[mjones1700]

Can you take a picture?

I'll try tomorrow when I'm home.

[jonnyc]

Is that ***** switch attached to the oil filter housing?
I mean switch that has no wires attached...

[crankin]

Is it this? 6743

Starter Solenoid

A starter solenoid’s only job is to complete the circuit between the battery and the starter when you turn the key to start. It relays a large electric current to the starter motor.

[mjones1700]

Is it this? 6743

Starter Solenoid

A starter solenoid’s only job is to complete the circuit between the battery and the starter when you turn the key to start. It relays a large electric current to the starter motor.

Yeah I think that's it but mine has flat wire connectors rather than the bolt. Now, if my memory serves me right, about 10 years ago I replaced the starter. First I used an official rebuilt starter which didn't do the trick. Then, I used a more modern starter modified for the Series with a built in solenoid (on the side of it), so that makes sense why it is disconnected. I must have disconnected it then. So then it has nothing to do with my new problem as the engine turns over great, just doesn't fire at all. Thanks

[stomper]

if it were me, I would take the center plug off the distributor, and then have someone crank over the engine while holding the wire to a nearby piece of metal. if it shows a spark, the coil and wiring upstream are fine. if there is no spark, go back and check everything prior to the distributor. it will at least put you in the ball park of where your problem is, and you can then know where to test with your volt meter.

[mjones1700]

So here's where we . . . I guess I should I . . . are/am.

I can't see a spark from the main coil (high voltage) line to the frame.

I tested with the voltmeter and this is what I found. From the ignition wire to the coil post it, oddly in my opinion, is drawing about 2 volts. From the ignition coil wire to the frame, 12 volts. From the ignition wire, bypassing the coil, to the coil wire that runs to the condenser, 2 volts. Does that mean anything?

I checked the fuel line and fuel is being pumped. So I still think it is electrical but I can't figure out what happened during its long hibernation.

BTW, yes that is the old solenoid switch mounted beneath the original oil-filled air filter.

[TeriAnn]

I tested with the voltmeter and this is what I found. From the ignition wire to the coil post it, oddly in my opinion, is drawing about 2 volts. From the ignition coil wire to the frame, 12 volts. From the ignition wire, bypassing the coil, to the coil wire that runs to the condenser, 2 volts. Does that mean anything?

All the voltages I mentioned above when I describes how the ignition circuit works is from the wire under test to ground. Sorry, it didn't occur to me to mention that. You have 12V on one side of the coil to ground. Good first step.

Lets jump a couple steps. With the ignition on and the points open, measure the voltage from one of the points to ground. The hot point should measure the same voltage as you measured previously between the coil and ground.



A common mistake is in connecting the points.

[nate6472]

I have been reading throughout these because I have a similar problem but mine just died while idling. Because I had planned to anyway, I replaced the fuel pump and the sparks are wet with petrol when the engine turns over, so I have ruled out fuel. I just ordered new points, condenser, plugs and coil - all fairly cheap. I will give these a go when they arrive. BTW, mine is a 84 110 with a 2.25, RHD. Any additional advice would be appreciated.

[JimCT]

I know the shotgun approach might hit the problem, but you really need to change one part at a time to find what the original fault is. The ign system is very simple.





I have been reading throughout these because I have a similar problem but mine just died while idling. Because I had planned to anyway, I replaced the fuel pump and the sparks are wet with petrol when the engine turns over, so I have ruled out fuel. I just ordered new points, condenser, plugs and coil - all fairly cheap. I will give these a go when they arrive. BTW, mine is a 84 110 with a 2.25, RHD. Any additional advice would be appreciated.

[mjones1700]

Here is where I'm at with my original problem. Still won't start or even hit once. The starter turning the engine well (battery still holding up after a 1,000 cranks). The open points with the ignition on has 12 volts from hot side to frame and across the open points. However, I still can't see a spark when I pull a plug wire off and hold it over a frame bolt. I still see fuel being pumped and smell gas after trying to start it.

So, were do I go from here and what is the first part to replace? I have new plugs and they are gaped correctly. The pug wires are about 8 years old but look good and no arcing. A new coil? A new condenser? Why would something like this go out just with prolonged sitting? Thanks in advanced.

[jonnyc]

OK, I don't want to be offensive here, but I haven't read the word "rotor" here anywhere. I went back and didn't see it anywhere. Has that been checked?

[mjones1700]

You're not being offensive. I put a new rotor on a couple of years before the restore, 4-5 years ago. I did lightly touch up the contact points the other day, after it wasn't starting, on the edge and top with some fine sand paper to make the brass look bright. Do I need to replace it? I had replaced the dist cap about the same time. The contacts look good with one with a little black, which I also lightly touched up (after it wasn't starting not before).

Now years ago, it wouldn't start and I even drained the battery trying (I was far off the beaten path). Eventually had to get it towed. A few days later it started right up and I assumed it was flooded. I can't imagine that now.

[SafeAirOne]

If you haven't already done it, Replace the condensor. These can go bad just sitting and people have even been receiving bad ones right out of the box.

This is really a basic system and to know how it operates means you know how to fix it.

I know TeriAnn went over theory of operation, but please indulge me while I review (apologies for the L-E-N-G-T-H-Y post):

PRIMARY CIRCUIT:

Inside the coil, there are 2 separate wires 'coiled' around some sort of a core; there's a 'primary' coil circuit, which is powered by 12 volts from the tiny white wire from the ignition switch, and a fat 'secondary' circuit wire which delivers 20,000 volts of electricity to the distributor, where it gets 'distributed' to the different spark plugs. Now, where did that 20,000 volts come from??

Well that's what the coil is for--It produces 20,000 volts from 12 volts. That's the coil's only job. How does it do this? Remember those 2 separate wires coiled around a core in the coil? Well, when you send 12 volts through the primary coil windings then to ground, it builds up an electromagnetic force field that surrounds both the primary and secondary circuit in the coil. Still, that doesn't make 20,000 come out of the seconday coil...that is until you suddenly cut off the 12 volts of power to the primary circuit by disconnecting the ground.

When you suddenly chop the 12 volts of power to the primary coil winding, the electromagnetic field very suddenly collapses. This collapsing magnetic field passes by the secondary coil windings, creating electricity. Don't ask me how--It's been a long time since high-school electricity class--but it does generate electricity and the amouunt of voltage generated in the secondary circuit and sent on to the spark plugs is determined by several factors such as the number of windings in each coil circuit and the strength of the electromagnetic field, etc.

So, we know that turining on and off the electricity to the primary circuit is what generates the electricity in the secondary circuit inside the coil and then on to the spark plugs, but how does the electricity in the primary circuit get turned on and off? Well, that's the one and only function of the 'breaker points' or just 'points'.

As the name suggests, the breaker points 'break' the 12-volt electrical path from the primary circuit on the coil and ground, causing the electromagnetic force field inside the coil to collapse at just the right moment. We won't go into ignition timing here, but know that when you adjust the ignition timing, you are adjusting the moment at which the breaker points begin to open, breaking that electrical path.

So...it sounds simple enough--just turn on and off the electricity to the primary circuit and inside the coil, you'll generate huge voltages in the secondary circuit which will be sent off to the spark plugs, right? Well, there's only one problem with that whole thing. When you suddenly open up the primary circuit with the breaker points, the electricity will want to keep flowing. So much so, that it'll jump the gap created when the breaker points open up and will spark across the two open contacts, effectively keeping electricity flowing through the circuit.

Now if the 12-volt primary circuit needs to be switched cleanly and completely off in order to create the 20,000 volts in the secondary circuit, we obviously can't have electricity jumping the gap across the open breaker points. So what are we going to do to stop this arcing? The answer lies in the most commonly defective component in a points-type ignition system: The condenser.

In order to stop the electricity from jumping the gap when you open the breaker points, the electricity will, very briefly, need a path that appears easier to travel through than the air gap between the opening contacts of the points. So...as soon as the breaker points start opening, the electricity sees an 'easier' path to travel and heads over to the condenser. The condenser acts as sort of an electrical 'sponge', soaking up the electricity till it is full, then the flow of electricity stops, since there is no more 'capacity' left for it in the condenser (AKA 'capacitor'). By the time the electricity realizes there's no place left to go, it's too late--it doesn't have enough energy to spark across the gap in the now-open breaker points.

So what if the condenser is bad or if there's some unintended ground in the primary circuit or if the points don't open up or close up properly? In other words, what if there is something causing the circuit to either stay energized or to not energize in the first place?

Well the end result is that the primary circuit inside the coil will never ever turn off and on and therefore the electromagnetic field will never build and collapse inside the coil and as a result, the secondary circuit inside the coil will never get energized with the 20,000 volts and the fat secondary wire will never get energized and your spark plugs will never spark and your engine will never start.



SECONDARY CIRCUIT:

OK...so now everything's hunky-dory in the primary circuit. 12 volts is flowing when it should and stopping where it should, turing on and off like a champ, sending 20,000-volt pulses down the secondary wire like there's no tomorrow. Still you have no spark at the plugs, you say?

Well, presuming the coil is good, there will be 20,000 volts available at the end of the fat wire that comes out of the coil and goes into the center of the distributor cap every time the breaker points open up. What happens to that 20,000 volts once it hits the center post of the distributor cap?

Well, that 20,000 volts travels down the fat wire from the coil to a spring-loaded electrical contact on the underside center of the distributor cap. That spring-loaded contact rides on top of a brass strip on the rotor and causes the strip to become energized with 20,000 volts every time the points open up. But how does that 20,000 volts get to each spark plug?

As the name implies, the rotor rotates in sync with the pistons and the opening and closing of the points so that when the 20,000 volt pulse comes out of the coil, the brass strip on the top of the rotor is pointing to to one of 4 contacts on the circumfrence of the underside of the distributor cap. These contacts are the electrical path through the distributor cap for the 4 spark plug wires, so the 20,000 volt jolt goes from the coil, through the distributor cap to the rotor and then is 'distributed' to whatever spark plug wire the rotor is pointing to, then on to the respective spark plug.

This whole process is timed to deliver the 20,000 volt pulse every time the contact on the rotor points to one of the plug wire contacts on the underside of the distributor cap.



And so there it is. That's all the information anyone needs to tackle any "no-spark" gripes encountered on any 2.25 petrol engine. The only thing that's left is where to put the voltmeter and ohm meter leads when you're looking for electricity or continuity, but that's something for another day...

[SafeAirOne]

To further breach forum etiquette, I'll follow my super-long reply with another consecutive reply from me...


Here's a link to a "no-spark' troubleshooting flowchart I made up a minute ago. Apologies for the fact that I did it on one of those "free flowcharts!" websites: http://www.selectsmart.com/commentary/blog.php?m=2327


If anyone sees any errors or omissions, let me know and I'll try to fix it.

[mjones1700]

To further breach forum etiquette, I'll follow my super-long reply with another consecutive reply from me...


Here's a link to a "no-spark' troubleshooting flowchart I made up a minute ago. Apologies for the fact that I did it on one of those "free flowcharts!" websites: http://www.selectsmart.com/commentary/blog.php?m=2327


If anyone sees any errors or omissions, let me know and I'll try to fix it.

Hey, that flow chart is a work of art. Makes perfect sense and I see why I'm at the "replace the condenser" point. I certainly understand the science of electricity and etc. but I didn't know a few nuisances such as the reason for the break points was that when the 12 volt circuit is suddenly broken (points open) that it causes the cascade of discharge of the stored high voltage.

I will keep you posted and thanks again.

[stomper]

Thank you Mr. Wizzard! That was an excellent summary, and makes a lot of sense! Especially from someone who operates a diesel!:)

[SafeAirOne]

Thank you Mr. Wizzard! That was an excellent summary, and makes a lot of sense! Especially from someone who operates a diesel!:)

Ha!--Yeah. The BEST solution is to get rid of the distributor and spark plugs altogether! :D

[mjones1700]

Ha!--Yeah. The BEST solution is to get rid of the distributor and spark plugs altogether! :D

I know that you are talking about going diesel, however on that same thought (getting rid of points at least) what do you think about the "electronic ignition" system that British-Pacific was selling as a replacement to the original point system?

[jonnyc]

I used the Crane Fireball system. It is really a great reliability upgrade.

[SafeAirOne]

I can't really comment on electronic ignition systems for the series. I've never owned one, though plenty of folks on this board have them and I'm sure they'll let you know...

[nate6472]

Agreed. I replace the coil today. If that does not work, the condenser. Then points. I hope to not deal with the points since it has been a long time since I adjusted the gap (and it is so hot out !)

[mjones1700]

I just ordered condenser and coil. I was just thinking. I was doing a lot of arc wielding on the frame and body during the 2 year restore. The battery was disconnected and I placed my wield ground as close as I could to my hot tip, but could that ever fry a coil or other electronics?

[SafeAirOne]

The battery was disconnected and I placed my wield ground as close as I could to my hot tip, but could that ever fry a coil or other electronics?

My two replies would be "I doubt it" and "other electronics??".

[mjones1700]

My two replies would be "I doubt it" and "other electronics??".

I stand corrected . . . "electricals"

[mjones1700]

Okay . . . 2 1/2 years of being in 1,000 pieces. Slowly put back together . . . but wouldn't start. I followed your trouble-shooting ideas. I ordered the parts (coil and condenser). The order was lost for two weeks (not Rovers North). I anxiously waited. Today the parts came. I put in the coil . . . still nothing, not one hit. No detectable spark. I was skeptical I would ever get this solved. I put in the condenser (I've been in on brain surgery that was easier to get to than the condenser screw). Five full cranks . . . . :D YES! YES! YES! Dundee runs like a top . . . except the accelerator is sticking. But that will be an easy fix. The accelerator bar running through the new footwells was tight. I need to enlarge the hole. But, the important thing SHE RUNS!! So thanks so much for your help.

[SafeAirOne]

Nice!

Not sure what kills condensers, but they seem as if they can go bad by just sitting around.