Restored Series III 109 2.25 Won't Restart

[mjones1700]

I just spent the last 2 1/2 years restoring my landy. It was a major body/frame restoration. The only mechanical things I did was replacing all the fluids and lube it up and replace the plugs. I did replace the gas tank and sending unit.

I was so excited to crank her up again after 2 1/2 years. However, she will not start (starter turns fine but never fires once). I first thought it was a fuel line issue, but there is new fuel in the fuel line filter, plus it smells like gas is getting to the carb. I also tried some starting fluid without benefit. Now I think it is a spark issue. I neither see nor hear a spark when I pull the plug wires off a touch. I'm getting a new voltmeter today to test the lines to the coil.

I did have virtually all the body panels off. I didn't intend to change any wiring but possibly I did by accident.

With that said, I will add the caveat that I'm medical . . . not mechanical. I know how the human body works but not engines. The wiring to the ignition looks to me like a pile of spaghetti wrapped in electrical tape inside the dash. So, if you have ideas for me, tell me like I’m a mechanical bimbo. Any help would be appreciated as I'm drooling to get this baby back on the road. Thanks.

[Ross72SIII]

Take the voltmeter to it systematically and Ill bet you'll find a lead on your problem. Or you'll find a whole bunch of new problems. Either way, it will be interesting. There is a very good chance you nicked or cut something taking the body apart.

Ive found over and over its usually me overlooking something silly when the Rover wont start. Such as the fuel tank sender unit reading 3/4, but having no fuel in the tank...then realizing thats about right because I havent filled it up in a week and a half.

[crankin]

There are some many things that this could be...

Here are some things:
Low battery (sitting for 2 years will drop the voltage of the battery)
Poor Ground connections
Starter motor has shorted windings

Are you sure you are getting fuel to the carb? You have taking the fuel line off and turned the car over to watch fuel pump out of the tube? Sometimes the diaphragm will dry and crack in your fuel pump after sitting dry for some time.

Because I am lazy I do not want to type out all the rest. Here is Terriann's FAQ that I have ripped off...but will supply the link to the original page so that you can read more.

Symptom: Engine just does not start and there is weak or no spark at the plugs. (a low battery or starter motor with shorted windings can cause the voltage to be too low to create a spark when trying to start the engine)

Likely cause: If you are not out of petrol, the ignition switch is in the on position, your battery is fully charged, you have a good ground connection between the engine and battery ground and your starter motor does not have shorted windings then it could be any part of the ignition system.

First check the point gap (This should always be your first check). If the gap looks OK, remove the distributor cap, put the engine out of gear, mechanical brake set and have someone turn the the engine over while you watch the inside of the distributor. Verify that the rotor is turning, the brass bar at the top is still there and that the points open and close as the lobes move. Also visually inspect the centre contact of the cap to assure that the sprung contact is still sprung and in good condition and that there are no carbon trails or shallow cracks leading sway from the centre contact.

With the starter motor not turning use a volt meter or continuity lamp to verify that there is 12V (lamp is lit) when the points are open and zero volts when the points are closed. You place one lead on the insulated side of the points and the other on a good ground. If there is 12V when the insulated contact is open AND closed then either the points are not really closing or there is no electrical path between both contacts. Readjust points or replace them if the contacts are bad.

If there is NO 12V on the insulated side of the contacts you need to trouble shoot the primary circuit using the method previously described.

If the primary circuits checks out as OK, the points are working correctly and the points have the proper point gap, the fault could be either the secondary circuit or the timing is off by a long way (usually if the timing is way off it will try to start or a cylinder will fire at a wrong time). The parts of the secondary circuit that will keep anything from firing are the coil, high voltage wire between the coil and distributor, centre connector of the distributor cap and the rotor. If a visual inspection doesn't identify the bad part, swap out components with new ones.

Check out the rest of her page because it has a lot of good information. http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/...ionTrouble.htm

[mjones1700]

Thanks I will go through all of those. I didn't mention but it has a brand new high end battery that is working great and I put in a new starter that was working great (while it was running 2 1/2 years ago) just before I shut it down for restoration. The starter cranks the engine like a top. But I will check the other things. Now, if it was just a fuel problem, would it at least hit now and then with starter fluid sprayed into the carb?

I would guess, once I get my voltmeter, to check the line from the ignition (with the ignition on) to the coil by disconnecting it from the coil and testing it to ground. If that end is hot, then testing the wire coming off the coil on the other side (not the high voltage wire).

Now a dumb question. I noticed some type of round switch mounted just below the air filter (RHD) that has male wire clips but no wires leading to it. I don't remember ever taking anything off of this but I'm not sure what it is for.

Thanks

[TeriAnn]

Oky Doky

Think of the distributor points as an on - off switch and the distributor cap & rotor as a rotary switch that switches electricity from one spark plug to another.

Your ignition switch provides 12V to one side of the coil. The other side of the coil has a wire that goes to the side of the distributor at the base just below the cap. Inside the distributor one side of the points is connected to the wire from the coil and a condenser (car term for capacitor) This is how 12V gets to one of the points contacts. The other point contact goes to ground.

So when the points are open (not touching one another) and the ignition is in the on position, you should be able to measure 12V on both the connections on the side of the coil, the connection at the base of the distributor and on one of the two distributor points.

When the points are closed and the ignition switch is on the on position, your voltmeter will read zero volts at both point contacts and at both ends of the wire going between the coil and the side of the distributor.

All this will tell you if you properly have electricity going to the ignition circuit. The coil creates a high voltage surge when the points close. The high voltage goes down the centre wire to the middle of the distributor top, through a spring loaded carbon contact to the center of the rotor. The electricity flow along the copper bar on the top of the rotor to a contact along the outside top of the distributor cap , along the spark plug wire to the spark plug where the high voltage jumps the gap with a spark.

The intensity and duration of the spark is dependent upon the point gap and the spark plug gap. The wider the spark plug gap the hotter the spark assuming that the coil can generate enough voltage. Too wide a gap and the coil can not generate enough voltage to reliably jump the gap. You set your plug gap according to the manual which is in a range a healthy stock coil can handle. The duration the points stays open affects the amount of high voltage your coil generates. So it is important that your points be adjusted to the gap called for in the manual. If the points slip so the gap is too small you get a very weak spark.

The rotor in your distributor is rotated by a shaft connected to a gear on the engine cam shaft. For your engine to work it is imperative that the spark arrive at the cylinder at the correct time. This is set by rotation the body of the distributor per the manual.

That's how the ignition system generates a spark and how it delivers the spark to the correct location.

First thing is to make sure you have 12V going to one of the point contacts when the points are open and that there are zero volts at the points when the points are closed.

Hope this helps you figure out the ignition system.

[crankin]

Now a dumb question. I noticed some type of round switch mounted just below the air filter (RHD) that has male wire clips but no wires leading to it. I don't remember ever taking anything off of this but I'm not sure what it is for.

Can you take a picture?

[mjones1700]

Can you take a picture?

I'll try tomorrow when I'm home.

[jonnyc]

Is that ***** switch attached to the oil filter housing?
I mean switch that has no wires attached...

[crankin]

Is it this?

Starter Solenoid

A starter solenoid’s only job is to complete the circuit between the battery and the starter when you turn the key to start. It relays a large electric current to the starter motor.

[mjones1700]

Is it this? [ATTACH=CONFIG]6743[/ATTACH]

Starter Solenoid

A starter solenoid’s only job is to complete the circuit between the battery and the starter when you turn the key to start. It relays a large electric current to the starter motor.

Yeah I think that's it but mine has flat wire connectors rather than the bolt. Now, if my memory serves me right, about 10 years ago I replaced the starter. First I used an official rebuilt starter which didn't do the trick. Then, I used a more modern starter modified for the Series with a built in solenoid (on the side of it), so that makes sense why it is disconnected. I must have disconnected it then. So then it has nothing to do with my new problem as the engine turns over great, just doesn't fire at all. Thanks

[stomper]

if it were me, I would take the center plug off the distributor, and then have someone crank over the engine while holding the wire to a nearby piece of metal. if it shows a spark, the coil and wiring upstream are fine. if there is no spark, go back and check everything prior to the distributor. it will at least put you in the ball park of where your problem is, and you can then know where to test with your volt meter.

[mjones1700]

So here's where we . . . I guess I should I . . . are/am.

I can't see a spark from the main coil (high voltage) line to the frame.

I tested with the voltmeter and this is what I found. From the ignition wire to the coil post it, oddly in my opinion, is drawing about 2 volts. From the ignition coil wire to the frame, 12 volts. From the ignition wire, bypassing the coil, to the coil wire that runs to the condenser, 2 volts. Does that mean anything?

I checked the fuel line and fuel is being pumped. So I still think it is electrical but I can't figure out what happened during its long hibernation.

BTW, yes that is the old solenoid switch mounted beneath the original oil-filled air filter.

[TeriAnn]

I tested with the voltmeter and this is what I found. From the ignition wire to the coil post it, oddly in my opinion, is drawing about 2 volts. From the ignition coil wire to the frame, 12 volts. From the ignition wire, bypassing the coil, to the coil wire that runs to the condenser, 2 volts. Does that mean anything?

All the voltages I mentioned above when I describes how the ignition circuit works is from the wire under test to ground. Sorry, it didn't occur to me to mention that. You have 12V on one side of the coil to ground. Good first step.

Lets jump a couple steps. With the ignition on and the points open, measure the voltage from one of the points to ground. The hot point should measure the same voltage as you measured previously between the coil and ground.



A common mistake is in connecting the points.

[nate6472]

I have been reading throughout these because I have a similar problem but mine just died while idling. Because I had planned to anyway, I replaced the fuel pump and the sparks are wet with petrol when the engine turns over, so I have ruled out fuel. I just ordered new points, condenser, plugs and coil - all fairly cheap. I will give these a go when they arrive. BTW, mine is a 84 110 with a 2.25, RHD. Any additional advice would be appreciated.

[JimCT]

one at a time

I know the shotgun approach might hit the problem, but you really need to change one part at a time to find what the original fault is. The ign system is very simple.

I have been reading throughout these because I have a similar problem but mine just died while idling. Because I had planned to anyway, I replaced the fuel pump and the sparks are wet with petrol when the engine turns over, so I have ruled out fuel. I just ordered new points, condenser, plugs and coil - all fairly cheap. I will give these a go when they arrive. BTW, mine is a 84 110 with a 2.25, RHD. Any additional advice would be appreciated.