Repower SIII 109 with 200TDI?

[bullstanky]

My '75 SIII 109 came to me with a Ford diesel in it from a '71 Ford Transit that runs really well, gets relatively good mileage, can run on bio-diesel blends if I want to, and is fed by a fairly common minimec injection pump. I don't foresee any real problems in the near future with the engine--it's just a simple as they come.

But while many folks swapped out the 2.25 petrol engines in their 88's for Ford Transit diesels and found them up to the task, this engine doesn't quite give me the umph I'm looking for in my 109. I had a Fairey OD installed that made a big difference in my ability to maintain speed going up steep hills and the like, but at the end of the day, while the engine is fine off-road and in town at speeds of 60mph and below, I just would like a little more get up and go.

So, I'm thinking about swapping in a 200TDI and R380 gearbox like the one's available in this listing on ebay - http://www.ebay.com/itm/390358278661?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Any red flags with this idea or things I should look out for? What should my expectations be as far as performance gains? Will I have to change the gear ratios in the front or rear diffs (front is a rover type, rear is a salisbury, no idea what the current ratios are or if lockers are installed)?

And what do you think a transit diesel w/ 4-speed & Fairey OD is worth these days to someone looking to do a diesel swap for their 88? The faiery OD cost me $800 alone, so maybe I should take it off and sell it separately?

[o2batsea]

David's been selling import tdis for a while. His main business is LandCruisers but does Land Rover work as well. Have not heard anything bad about him or any of his dealings. He is on D-90.com as atlcruiser.

If you go with the 200Tdi you'll be very happy with the performance. There are some gotchas that will make the install a bit more problematic in some circumstances. First off is it a RHD or LHD 109? If it's RHD you are in the pink as there will be no turbo clearance issue to speak of. If it's LHD, then you are in a pickle. You must do something to relocate the turbo if it has a Disco manifold. If it has a Defender manifold you are again, golden because the turbo mounts higher up. My solution is a little different. I am flipping the turbo around 180, and reclocking the center section. This puts the exhaust toward the front like a 300 tdi.
The kit David is selling comes pretty much complete and I think you can use the Series transfer case if you use the Ashcroft kit here (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=83) for an additional 360 UKP but you wind up with some geometry issues cz it moves the transfer case back 4 inches. That means either moving the engine forward those 4 inches or having new prop shafts done along with clearancing the transmission cross member.
The best option for fitment is to buy the 200tdi, the Ashcroft "Stumpy" R380 (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=157) (about 2K delivered) rework an LT230 to be part time (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=322) 4WD and badda bing dunny done. You'll probably want to change the handbrake to the XEng X brake (http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-BrakeDef.asp) transmission disc instead of the LT230 drum as the linkage from Series to the LT230 is not compatible.
Anyway, maybe a pre OBD2 300 tdi is a better choice due to the fitment issues. They are more available and finding things like the manifolds is way easier than the 200tdi. They are virtually the same engine. The 300 will need new mounts welded in.
One other area of concern will be your diffs. With 4.57 final drive, you will wind out the diesel pretty quick, so you might want to swap in a RRC or Disco diff in front and change the ring and pinion in the rear for a better cruising speed.
No matter how you slice it this is major surgery with its associated Big Bill. Be sure you want to bite the apple before taking it from the tree.

[SafeAirOne]

Didn't some company in the UK make an elbow that bolted in between the exhaust manifold and the turbo on Disco 200Tdi's that swung the turbo up and out of the way of the LHD steering components? I'm pretty sure I've seen it...the hard part will be re-finding it on the net...

[o2batsea]

Yah that's another option. The same thing can be fabbed locally with set of t25 exhaust flanges and a weld elbow. Look on Ebay for the exhaust flanges, they're about 16-18 bux each.

[meatblanket]

The engine in the link posted is a Defender 200tdi, not a Discovery 200tdi. As such, it should go into a LHD 109 truck without any special exhaust work using the stock 200tdi downpipe.

I don't think any of the Steve Parker bits are designed to put a Disco 200tdi in a LHD Series. I don't think that's gonna happen very easily without a PAS conversion at a minimum.

The moral to the story is that if you have a LHD Series and you want to put a 200tdi in it, you're in for a lot less work if you start with the Defender version rather than the Disco version.

As for the rest of the drivetrain, you should confirm whether the listed is really an LT77 (which is what is typically found on 200tdi). Unless the R380 has a short bellhousing (doesn't look like it) you'll likely have issues with total drivetrain length.

[bullstanky]

Thanks for the insight gents. I have a real (RHD - came across the pond on a boat like my ancestors) Series III 109, so the turbo placement is a non-issue. And the kit says it comes complete with the R380 and transfer box.

Does this mean that I can more or less bolt this sucker in (200TDI and R380) and change out the gearing and be done with it or do I have to have new drive shafts made as well (I'd hate that 'cause my current ones are only 2 years old and the rear one was a custom job)? What about mating a 200TDi to my existing 4 speed and fairey OD--would the torque rip things apart? And what about mating a 200 TDI to my four speed and taking off the fairey OD in exchange for a hi-speed transfer case?

[SafeAirOne]

Though I haven't done it personally, If it were me, I'd probably just stick with the 200Tdi/R380/LT230 setup and have your shafts re-tubed if necessary. Welding is easy and cheap. Machine work isn't.

Read the Driveline Geometry 101 page on Tom Wood's Custom Driveshaft site (http://www.4xshaft.com/). Look in the Tech Info section.

With a 109, you may be alright with the setup moved back a bit, so long as you're within the parameters described on that page.

[o2batsea]

Does this mean that I can more or less bolt this sucker in (200TDI and R380) and change out the gearing and be done with it or do I have to have new drive shafts made as well (I'd hate that 'cause my current ones are only 2 years old and the rear one was a custom job)? What about mating a 200TDi to my existing 4 speed and fairey OD--would the torque rip things apart? And what about mating a 200 TDI to my four speed and taking off the fairey OD in exchange for a hi-speed transfer case?

No, you can't just bolt it in. There is quite a lot of reengineering as you are probably beginning to realize. Nothing that hasn't been overcome many times before, so you aren't exactly on untrodden ground. it's a challenging project for the driveway mechanic. Count on another couple thousand for thisses and thats.

[Les Parker]

Few conversions are "bolt in", though being aware of the pitfalls and some idea of the work involved is always worthwhile the time and effort of research.

From speaking to people who have completed the Tdi conversion, the time/money/effort that was taken to complete the project, nearly all thought it was worth the effort. The only downfall is having a good unit to start the project with.

[meatblanket]

Thanks for the insight gents. I have a real (RHD - came across the pond on a boat like my ancestors) Series III 109, so the turbo placement is a non-issue. And the kit says it comes complete with the R380 and transfer box.

Does this mean that I can more or less bolt this sucker in (200TDI and R380) and change out the gearing and be done with it or do I have to have new drive shafts made as well (I'd hate that 'cause my current ones are only 2 years old and the rear one was a custom job)? What about mating a 200TDi to my existing 4 speed and fairey OD--would the torque rip things apart? And what about mating a 200 TDI to my four speed and taking off the fairey OD in exchange for a hi-speed transfer case?

Since you are RHD you can use the Disco version of the 200tdi, which should be available for less $. A bit more work since you have to modify the flywheel housing and use a custom downpipe, but it's another option and a common swap in the UK.

If you want a bolt in install the Defender 200tdi to your existing transmission is the closest you'll get. The Ashcroft hi-ratio transfer case is probably your best bet for strength versus the Fairey OD.

I don't know how fast you want to go, but run your gear ratios through this calculator and see what you come up with.
http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/calc/ratio_calc.html

[meatblanket]

Assuming Defender 200tdi and your existing transmission, this is a rough idea of what your issues will be:

1) Right side chassis bracket for motor mount needs to be fabricated such that it clears the injection pump cleanly. The 200tdi can be physically bolted up without doing this, but be prepared for it. It is not at all difficult if it needs to be done, but it does require welding.
2) Battery has to be relocated under the seat or raised.
3) Throttle linkage needs to be addressed-- probably easiest to remove the Series stuff and install a Defender pedal and cable.
4) The radiator, intercooler and pipes configuration. There are a lot of different ways of dealing with that, but the Defender components won't fit nicely without some fabrication.
5) You'll need a new exhaust system from the 200tdi downpipe all the way out the back, since you'll want a much larger diameter than you get with a 2.25 petrol.

I have a 200tdi in a 110 and I think you'll be very pleased with the performance and the economy.

[meatblanket]

My solution is a little different. I am flipping the turbo around 180, and reclocking the center section. This puts the exhaust toward the front like a 300 tdi.

I subscribed to your thread on D-90 and I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for you.

[bullstanky]

Few conversions are "bolt in", though being aware of the pitfalls and some idea of the work involved is always worthwhile the time and effort of research.

Absolutely - I guess when I say "bolt in" I'm speaking relatively from the point-of-view of a Series owner, whose perspective would be quite different than that of say, someone who owns a Jaguar. And I'm not planning on re-powering in the driveway, I have a great custom shop that I have worked with before who specializes in building old Mopars (Challengers and Super Bees and the like) who also builds the occasional 4x4.

I guess what I'm asking is, other than perhaps fabricating/welding in new motor mounts, perhaps changing the length of the drive shafts, maybe fabricating a new down pipe, changing gear rations and worst case having to modify the rear crossmember to allow for rear drive shaft travel (which are not minor, but are well within the ability of my shop and, if I keep working until I'm 95 might fit within my Rover rebuild budget), we're not talking about major surgery like cutting the bulkhead or divorcing the transfer case or fabricating some complicated unavailable part. I mean, this is fairly do-able as I understand it, correct?

At least, as of yet, no one has popped up to say, "hey, just run what you've got and be happy with it and don't bother with the can of worms".....

[ArlowCT]

I would kill to have that transit motor in any of our trucks (88"s or the 109") just because I have been wanting a diesel for no real reason. If you do decide to pull it drop me a line.

You could always drop in a nice healthy 2.25 gas motor. Our 109" cruises at 75mph all day long and gets about 17mpg. You just have to love a nice smooth running 2.25 for how simple and reliable they are :).

Good luck.

[sleam]

Hey, seems like I missed most of this thread but i wanted to ask you about your series that goes at 75 mph - mine maxes out at 50 and it doesn't feel safe driving any kind of highways which is all we have in NM. What do you think? Would replacing the motor make that much difference? It's a 72 with a 2.25 petrol engine. thanks!

[TeriAnn]

Didn't some company in the UK make an elbow that bolted in between the exhaust manifold and the turbo on Disco 200Tdi's that swung the turbo up and out of the way of the LHD steering components? I'm pretty sure I've seen it...the hard part will be re-finding it on the net...

There is just one teeny weenie problem with using a Disco 200tdi exhaust manifold in a 109. The turbo and the frame want to occupy the same space. The 88 frame is different than the 109 frame in the engine compartment area so a Disco manifold will work with that elbow adapter. But for a 109 frame, you really would be happier with a Defender exhaust manifold.

And for steering component fitment issues don't forget there is always a power steering option that relocates everything.

[o2batsea]

Another option that I came up with is to flip the turbo upside down. This will allow it to clear the frame. It does create one small issue in that the center of the turbo has to be "clocked" so that the oil feed and drain are right way round again, and the wastegate actuator has to be relocated. Not a big deal and it was something I was halfway into when I realized that I had no need.
The other thing is that the drain tube will need to be fit with a longer hose, as well as the feed. Otherwise, it's a simple and elegant solution to the turbo fit problem.
Oh, and the exhaust will be in front instead of in the back. Again, no biggie.

[disco2hse]

From the other side of the field...

Is there a reason you can't stick a turbo on the transit? Sounds like you are pretty happy with it now, but want more power. What about adjusting the fuel pump output?

[bullstanky]

From the other side of the field...

Is there a reason you can't stick a turbo on the transit? Sounds like you are pretty happy with it now, but want more power. What about adjusting the fuel pump output?

It's funny you should mention that, a buddy of mine mentioned the same thing. And it would probably work, but will take a ton of tinkering and fabrication--essentially uncharted territory. And at the end of the day there are tons of parts available for a 200 tdi or a Mercedes 617, but very few for a '71 ford York transit. It worries me to do intense fab work like that for an obscure (yet very simple) engine.

[disco2hse]

It's funny you should mention that, a buddy of mine mentioned the same thing. And it would probably work, but will take a ton of tinkering and fabrication--essentially uncharted territory. And at the end of the day there are tons of parts available for a 200 tdi or a Mercedes 617, but very few for a '71 ford York transit. It worries me to do intense fab work like that for an obscure (yet very simple) engine.

I don't know that specific engine, but Transits in general are common as muck. Far more of them on the road than 200Tdi's. Maybe not in the states, but certainly in the land of pom and associated former colonies, there are many.

[o2batsea]

3) Throttle linkage needs to be addressed-- probably easiest to remove the Series stuff and install a Defender pedal and cable.
Rod linkage works just fine.

[bullstanky]

I don't know that specific engine, but Transits in general are common as muck. Far more of them on the road than 200Tdi's. Maybe not in the states, but certainly in the land of pom and associated former colonies, there are many.

There seem to be plenty of 2.4 York diesels out there--far more of the later 2.5 DI. According to Wikipedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_York_engine), these engines were used on ford transits from 1972-1984 until the 2.5 came into service. And there seem to be "enough" parts around for the 1972-1984 range--but oddly enough, mine is a 1971.

Here's what I'm working with:
http://m83.photobucket.com/image/recent/photoandy/FORDTRANSITORG/3798c0fe.jpg.html?src=www

I'm guessing that few on this forum have ever seen the likes of this...

[disco2hse]

There seem to be plenty of 2.4 York diesels out there--far more of the later 2.5 DI. According to Wikipedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_York_engine), these engines were used on ford transits from 1972-1984 until the 2.5 came into service. And there seem to be "enough" parts around for the 1972-1984 range--but oddly enough, mine is a 1971.

Here's what I'm working with:
http://m83.photobucket.com/image/recent/photoandy/FORDTRANSITORG/3798c0fe.jpg.html?src=www

I'm guessing that few on this forum have ever seen the likes of this...

Well I see your point. Still, it seems from the comfort of my kitchen table that fitting a turbo will require no more fiddling around than completely changing the engine to something else the vehicle was not designed to hold.

[bullstanky]

Well I see your point. Still, it seems from the comfort of my kitchen table that fitting a turbo will require no more fiddling around than completely changing the engine to something else the vehicle was not designed to hold.

From what I understand, to add a turbo would require trading half of the obsolete parts on my engine with obsolete parts from a turbocharged engine and hoping it would work. Of course it would be easier just to swap in the turbocharged engine I would inevitably have to buy to get the parts needed to convert my existing engine, which brings me full circle back to the engine swap question that started this thread.

It's looking more and more like I'm just going to have a gutless rover and am going to have to live with it.

[busboy]

Just buy a wrecked Toyota 4X4 reg cab long box truck and remove the body then take the Rover body and stick it on top. Use the Toyota frame and power train. Reliable transport and reasonable gas mileage, parts available almost anywhere. Sell your unused Landrover bits and you'll have money left over.

[disco2hse]

From what I understand, to add a turbo would require trading half of the obsolete parts on my engine with obsolete parts from a turbocharged engine and hoping it would work. Of course it would be easier just to swap in the turbocharged engine I would inevitably have to buy to get the parts needed to convert my existing engine, which brings me full circle back to the engine swap question that started this thread.

It's looking more and more like I'm just going to have a gutless rover and am going to have to live with it.

Hmmm.

How about this then. Are the later model Yorks with turbos very different from what you have (engine mounts, bell housing, etc.)? If not, can you swap one of those in?

Remember, the 200tdi has been out of production a long time too.

[TeriAnn]

Just buy a wrecked Toyota 4X4 reg cab long box truck and remove the body then take the Rover body and stick it on top. Use the Toyota frame and power train. Reliable transport and reasonable gas mileage, parts available almost anywhere. Sell your unused Landrover bits and you'll have money left over.

If you want to drive a Toyota just get a Toyota. It is easier then turning a Toyota into Toyota that looks like a Land Rover.

On the other hand there is the Mercedes OM617 engine.

Robert Davis has been describing his Mercedes turbo diesel conversion on the D90 forum (http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42132)

So far he has done the conversion on an 88, D110 and Classic RR.

[disco2hse]

Thanks TeriAnn, I had chosen to ignore the trollishness ;)

Cool link.

[busboy]

Thanks TeriAnn, I had chosen to ignore the trollishness ;)Cool link.

I was NOT trolling I was serious, if you are going to implant a different make of engine and modify stuff to accommodate it, it is not truly a landrover anymore than it would be with Toyota axles and engine. I take it back, I was just trying to be helpful and offer a different perspective. Forget it.

[busboy]

If you want to drive a Toyota just get a Toyota. It is easier then turning a Toyota into Toyota that looks like a Land Rover.

On the other hand there is the Mercedes OM617 engine.

Robert Davis has been describing his Mercedes turbo diesel conversion on the D90 forum (http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42132)

So far he has done the conversion on an 88, D110 and Classic RR.

My post was a very simple suggestion that works for repowering a 109 Landrover which is what this thread was about. It had NOTHING to do with driving a Toyota.

[disco2hse]

My apologies. On several other forums I frequent, such posts as those emerge from trollites :)

Off-topic: It used to be a fairly common thing to do in this country, to put Nissan Patrol or Toyota Hilux diffs and axles into series wagons. Also, provides the benefit of a wider track.

[busboy]

It used to be a fairly common thing to do in this country, to put Nissan Patrol or Toyota Hilux diffs and axles into series wagons. Also, provides the benefit of a wider track.

I lost interest in my Landrover for a number of years and only recently became enthusiastic about it again so I have not followed what people have done in the last 10 years or so I only have my experience of owning my 1971 2a for the last 35 years and what I have done with it.

I personally did the Toyota transplant about 25 years ago when I had the chance to get a 1968 109 body with no frame. People have put larger more powerful engines in Landrovers for many years but it all boils down to the Landrover axles being too low geared even with an overdrive and the new engine has to rev too much to get any speed so poor gas mileage. Back then there was not the interest like now, no internet and there were next to no parts on this side of the pond so we made do with what we had and frequent trips to the UK. Using the Toyota truck was a very simple solution and I was just offering it as an alternative that gave a decent engine full syncro gearbox and higher geared axles along with disc brakes on the front.

[disco2hse]

Yep. That's what I was thinking when I referred to what used to be common. Consequently, it is fairly rare to find an unmolested landie in good working order. Most of ours ended up with Holden (GM) engines.

[TeriAnn]

People have put larger more powerful engines in Landrovers for many years but it all boils down to the Landrover axles being too low geared even with an overdrive and the new engine has to rev too much to get any speed so poor gas mileage.

I am one of those molesters. My truck is basically all Land Rover except for 2 assemblies, the engine and gearbox. The engine is basically a 1991 Mustang 5.0L and the gearbox is an NP435 ( American truck top loader four speed).

I agree that if you leave the gearing stock you can go slow very quickly. However there are gearing options. If you just look at the diffs you can use the same diff ratios available for 1980's and 1990's coilers (Pre-Disco II days). The stock 3.54:1 and common aftermarket 4.10:1 immediately come to mind.

Our friends at Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/) cater to those of us who molest Land Rovers. For instance they have a Series transfercase high ratio conversion that turns the transfercase high gear from a 1.15:1 underdrive to a 0.87:1 overdrive while leaving the transfercase low range ratios the same. Calculated at the wheel this gives you very close to having a 3.54:1 diff in high rane while maintaining stock Series low range ratios.

This is what I have behind my 5L V8. With 33 inch dia tyres at 65 MPH my V8 is turning 2,650 RPM. Which is within the economy RPM range of my engine. With this gearing I get better fuel economy than I got with a fresh 2.25L 8:1 LR petrol engine.

If you want to swap in a 300tdi or td5 Ashcroft offers short bell housing R380 that will bolt directly to the 300tdi and will not push the engine forward. Then there is the part time 4WD conversion kit for the LT230 behind the R380 plus a number of high range gearing choices for the LT230.

And if you want to use a common American engine that bolts to a common American top loader truck gearbox, Advance Adapters (http://www.advanceadapters.com/) makes a range of adapters that will fit the American gearbox to a Series LR transfercase. Call their 800 number and ask to speak with Matt.

There are a LOT of gearing options.