Bubbling around hammer rivets

[neofeudal]

Hello!

I note that the paint is bubbling up around hammer rivets in my rear panels. This is on a 1973 Series 3 88".

I presume this is the Birmabright reacting with the frame? Or might it be with the hammer rivets (are those steel or aluminum?).

If I decide the paint this vehicle, is it as simple as sanding down flush, priming and painting? Or is there something I need to do to prevent future bubbling?

Any ideas welcome!

--Jason

[neofeudal]

P.S.
I suppose it is also possible that the Birmabright is fine and the paint is just separating for some other reason? That would be nice, I'm sure! I hope others have experienced this and have some thoughts. Thank you so much!

[TedW]

Jason:

Are you talking about the back panels or the rear quarter panels?

On the quarter panels there is a row of rivets just below the capping (they are usually OK); then there are groups of rivets about mid way down that attach steel reinforcements for the rear seat belts (you can see them if you look in the wheel wells). I suspect that you are having the problem with this latter group. You are getting galvanic corrosion from steel and aluminum in contact, resulting in the aluminum slowly turning to powder.

Here in Maine it is not uncommon to see S3's with big holes where the steel has eaten right through. A solution is to remove those steel reinforcements.

Just my $0.02.........

Ted

[neofeudal]

Ted,

That's the spot alright, on the rear quarter panels midway down.

My Rover is at the shop right now, so I can't see close how things play together. But are you saying that these rivets are not structurally necessary? i.e. that those steel reinforcements could be removed without eventual damage to the panel?

If so, I imagine they ARE important for the seat belts in the back.

Sounds like MAYBE a route could be to remove the rivets, put a rubber pad between the steel and aluminum, and just bondo those holes and sand. Does that sound wise?

Another option, I guess, would be replacing the rear quarter panels and making sure to pad between at that time.

Do you know if the rivets themselves cause trouble? It looks like my hammer rivets are made of steel. Should all of those be replaced with pop rivets or aluminum hammer rivets (?) ultimately?

Thank you sir!!!
--Jason

[John O from Jersey]

I had a tub with those supports that I would up not using. IF I were going to use it, I would CAREFULLY drill out those rivets, remove those steel brackets and place them firmly in the trash where they belonged in the first place. As for the remaining holes, the easiest and least intrusive route would be to sand them nice and smooth, insert some dome head aluminum hammer rivets that would be compatible with the body, and re-paint.

I think those brackets arrived with Series III to provide a support for the seatbelts that were on the side facing SW seats. Of course they should have galvanized the brackets first but, hey, they should have done a lot of things.

John O

[TedW]

Jason:

I agree with Johnny O on removal of the brackets. Very wise advice, in my view.

Where do you live? Unless you are in the AZ desert these supports are going to rot (they started rotting on the assembly line) and take your fenders with them.

My 1970 IIA came without these brackets. It is my understanding (corrections welcomed) that these were installed to meet new DOT safety regulations.

My truck didn't have rear seat belts; when I put them in I used huge stainless washers for support and am hoping for the best in the event of an "event."

Show us pictures of your sled!

Ted

[crankin]

They are lock and collars. A pneumatic gun presses them on and you can only remove them by drilling the head off or cutting the back out. If you decide to replace them, good luck on finding the brackets...and someone that has the pneumatic gun...well, I called within a 150 mile radius with no luck. Apparently, the car repair industry doesn't really do this anymore. Go figure...

http://images.gasgoo.com/MiMwMDRfMDA0IzAxMjg3MDIwMA--/auto-part-loc-k-bolt-lock-pin-lock-collar.jpg

http://www.ruibotechnology.chinafastener.com/ImgProducts/2012/5/20120529015152_X.JPG

Here:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t-Nj7lJ70-A/Sotpa4OzBYI/AAAAAAAAAbE/lteptrVt_Gg/s912/DSC03971.JPG

And let me tell you...they will mess your tub up!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-eXcfmSlfMpU/Sotp_ArkSUI/AAAAAAAAAco/z7ipMFv3j0o/s912/DSC03995.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZHVwpUl0wXE/SotqGRbh2CI/AAAAAAAAAdI/I8QSZvaEc38/s912/DSC04002.JPG

[TedW]

Clint:

Yuck - what a mess. This is one reason that I'm glad I have a IIA.

Ted

[knac1234]

Although I don't have my Series III anymore (still keep an eye on the board though!), this is exactly the reason I removed those seatbelt mounts.

As I was replacing the quarter panels, I removed the old ones and then was able to slide the seatbelt mounting "bars" out (as well as on the left side an emissions canister) after removing all of the fasteners. I then replaced the quarter panels, which should eliminate that problem---for the new owner!

Best regards,
Julian

[neofeudal]

Here's a crazy idea. What if I riveted galvanized industrial-looking rub rails to the outside of my rear quarter panels to cover up the offending bubbling? Rails like you might see on a FedEx truck, but smaller scaled.

As it seems solid back there, this would enable me to keep the seat belts for the rear seats and I could let the bubbling get worse over the next decade or two and nobody would know...

Looking online for rub rails, though, they seem very hard to find and I don't see ANY on a land rover ever. Is there some reason for this?

Thank you!
--Jason

[crankin]

Your whole tub is rotting away around those heads.

You can do what you want, but its like a cancer.

[neofeudal]

Maybe I can remove the heads, put something between the bracket and the Birmabright, and rivet it back on. I appreciate your insistence! I don't want to do something stupid!

Sounds like if I remove them and isolate the steel, I can sand down the bubbling, clean, prime, and repaint and the cause of the bubbling will have been remedied. So that's a win all-around.

Thanks again! --J

[TedW]

Maybe I can remove the heads, put something between the bracket and the Birmabright, and rivet it back on. I appreciate your insistence! I don't want to do something stupid!

Sounds like if I remove them and isolate the steel, I can sand down the bubbling, clean, prime, and repaint and the cause of the bubbling will have been remedied. So that's a win all-around.

Thanks again! --J

I strongly suggest that you remove the steel brackets and fill the holes with hammer rivets - corrosion problem solved. Otherwise,, any stray electrons will find their way to your precious Birmabright and do damage.

I think that simply using big (BIG) stainless washers with the seat belt mounts will give you as much strength as you can reasonably expect. After all, when you are carrying people sideways in the back of a truck you are asking for trouble anyway - which means that you will be keeping your wits about you if you have people back there.

Just my opinion......

[neofeudal]

I need to take a look at it as it is at the shop right now. I assumed the brackets in question are for mounting the seats themselves to the tub, not just to hold the seat belts. If I can remove the brackets, keep the seats, and using big stainless washers, that would be great! I'll check it more closely...that sounds great.

I agree about those side-facing seats. I guess they'd be good in a roll-over, if the roof holds, but head or rear hits would be an issue. Really, it should just be me or one passenger, unless my teen daughter and her many friends need a ride somewhere.

Thanks for your ideas, --Jason

[neofeudal]

OK, so I looked at the brackets in question, up under the rear tire-wells. Correct me if I am wrong, but they sure look like they are structurally required to hold the rear quarter panels on. If I remove them what will be holding those in place? What have others done?

I can see how a big washer for the seatbelts works, but I am concerned about the panel structure.

Thanks everybody! --Jason

[crankin]

Nope. It offers no structure support to the side panels.

I had an old timer that worked at a LR dealership in the 70s tell me that the UK would tax passenger vehicles higher than commercial (farm) vehicles. One thing that constituted LR as a commercial vehicle was the lack of rear seats. So, if you wanted to buy a LR without a rear seat, you were taxed as a commercial vehicle. Then have the rear seats installed. When they came to the states LR slapped the rear seats in.... Hence, why many of those backs and lockbolts are unpainted and you hear stories about them rusting on the car lot. I don't know if there is in truth in that...but it makes sense.

Maybe if I tell enough people this story...it will become urban legend. Much like the roof being used as a boat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyee2eWOXJE&list=UUUV83nYErtIV21TOAjZXrOQ&index=6&feature=plcp)....

There should be two metal flat stock in the lower left and right corners of the tub. Those keep them from flapping in the wind.

Others have patched the holes and used big washers. Me...I had another set of brackets and POR-15'd them and than rhino lined the under tub. However, I did not replace the lockbolts to the tub...i welded the holes up.

HOWEVER...
Three under the LR emblem are lockbolts...attached to the tub
Top rear three on the sides...also lockbolts attached to tub.

Read this.
http://forums.roversnorth.com/showthread.php?9522-SERIES-3-Originality-Question&highlight=collar+rivet