Anti-Seize Compound, When Not to Use?

[kenscs]

I have been methodically rebuilding my Series IIa over time. As I take bolts off, I clean them up and when I put them back on, I usually coat them with Anti-Seize compound for easier removal later. Particularly, bolts and nut combinations that hold on body panels like the Wings, etc. Is there ever a time I don't want to use Anti-seize on nuts and bolts? Does it cause some bolts to loosen up too easily and not "grip" as well? Why would OEM not use this stuff on original assembly other than cost considerations? That makes me think there are situations where using it is not ideal. I have seen NGK spark plug bulletins saying not to use it on their spark plugs because it makes it too easy to over-tighten and snap the plug off in the block. Before I slather this stuff on every bolt of a restore, I would like some advice.

[gudjeon]

Torque sensitive parts like main, conrod caps and headbolts. I do not put anti-seize on these as corrosion is not an issue. Putting stuff on the threads changes the torque values at the thread so I leave them alone. They would tighten up more as threads would slide easier putting more tension on the fastener than what should be there. Modern auto's don't call for anti-seize on threads of wheel nuts because the torque values change too much and can make them loosen later.

[leafsprung]

its terrible on toast

[Boston]

Bad in cocktails

[ArlowCT]

Goes real far in a washing machine!

I use it on everything I can as long as I remember. Just pulled my upper rear shock bolts, they haven't been touched in over ten years. They came out like I just put them in last week! You have to love the stuff.

[mearstrae]

Works great on electrical earths (grounds) and battery terminals to help prevent corrosion and promote a better connection. Never heard of it causing torquing problems, or spark plugs breaking. I've used it on everything from lawn mowers to hi-tech industrial machinery with no ill effects. And it comes in a couple of flavours: Copper, Nickel, Silver, and Bronze. I use stainless bolts wherever I can, but for everything else anti-seize is helpful. And a small pot of it would be enough to paint a large bridge.

'95 R.R.C. Lwb
'75 Series III Hybrid 109
'70 Rover 3500S

[TedW]

As most of you know, anti-sieze is amazingly tenacious stuff, and seems to preserve everything it touches - I rubbed some on some rust spots on my frame years ago - it's still there and the rust is at bay.

I always put a shmear on the upper threads of all new bleed screws - it keeps them from rusting in place after a few winters.

Question: I have a British restoration manual (made with the Dunsfold folks) that frequently refers to the use of "copper grease."

It was mentioned on a previous thread that copper grease would be bad if it came in contact with aluminum - hastening corrosion (that whole galvanic scale / nobility thing).

Any comments?

Ted

[ArlowCT]

I have used stainless fasteners on my truck for years but often have galling problems. At my new work we use a special stainless compound, the stuff is unreal. Order it from MacMaster Carr, it's not cheap but it sure works. Plus I used the copper on all the bullet connectors, until I hard wired everything...

[disco2hse]

As most of you know, anti-sieze is amazingly tenacious stuff, and seems to preserve everything it touches - I rubbed some on some rust spots on my frame years ago - it's still there and the rust is at bay.

I always put a shmear on the upper threads of all new bleed screws - it keeps them from rusting in place after a few winters.

Question: I have a British restoration manual (made with the Dunsfold folks) that frequently refers to the use of "copper grease."

It was mentioned on a previous thread that copper grease would be bad if it came in contact with aluminum - hastening corrosion (that whole galvanic scale / nobility thing).

Any comments?

Ted

Nah, just scare mongering.

Oh well, maybe you will have galvanic action with just the right amount of current blah blah blah. I am sure someone who knows what they are talking about will fill the gaps. Mostly it is used to stop steel from sticking to steel. Aluminium is not normally part of the combination.

If the fear of copper is so great, remove the wiring. ;)

[I Leak Oil]

Convice your kids to go trick or treating as a robot. Slather them in the nickle antiseize as part of their costume. Much cheaper than the stuff you get at the local costume store. Might be a real bear getting it off but just prepare them ahead of time that they might have to wear the costume to school for a few days until it comes off.

Internal mechanical components (engine, tranny, axle etc.) don't generally need it. Pretty safe to use it most everywhere else.

[kenscs]

Here is the Technical Service Bulletin link for the NGK spark plugs. Pretty scary photos!

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/tb-0630111antisieze.pdf

[disco2hse]

Is there ever a time I don't want to use Anti-seize on nuts and bolts?

Where I am going to use Loctite.

[mearstrae]

Here is the Technical Service Bulletin link for the NGK spark plugs. Pretty scary photos!

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/tb-0630111antisieze.pdf

I suppose any ham-handed mechanic could break any spark plug by tightening it to a few hundred lb/ft of torque. Or cheezy metal would fatigue on vigoriously cranking in place. But in the several decades of anti-seizing spark plugs (including NGK's) I haven't seen anything like this. All in all I think this is why the torque wrench was invented.

'95 R.R.C. Lwb
'76 Series III Hybrid 109
'70 Rover 3500S

[JimCT]

Why would you doubt the manufacturer? They have a coating on the threads and lubricating the plug gives a different reading with a torque wrench. Why risk it? I am guessing they know what they are talking about since they have sold a few plugs around the world!






I suppose any ham-handed mechanic could break any spark plug by tightening it to a few hundred lb/ft of torque. Or cheezy metal would fatigue on vigoriously cranking in place. But in the several decades of anti-seizing spark plugs (including NGK's) I haven't seen anything like this. All in all I think this is why the torque wrench was invented.

'95 R.R.C. Lwb
'76 Series III Hybrid 109
'70 Rover 3500S

[gudjeon]

That's what I was thinking. How tight do you have to turn in a spark plug to have it snap or stretch. Even with never-seize. You can feel the washer compress way before you get there. I have used it on plugs for may years as well and never had on go in too tight. The only ones I have had stuck are the wedge based ones. They can be in there like a sumagun.

[mearstrae]

Why would you doubt the manufacturer? They have a coating on the threads and lubricating the plug gives a different reading with a torque wrench. Why risk it? I am guessing they know what they are talking about since they have sold a few plugs around the world!

In a word, "Yes", I doubt all I haven't seen for myself. Companies are run by accountants and lawyers, so if they decide to sanction a practice the company is libel for it, thus enter the afore mention persons. Anti-seize can no more change a torque reading than '3-In-One' oil. On the other end of the spectrum, I was warned against using Anti-seize as a grease in high temp enviroment bearings (several hundred degrees), by the manufacturer (who has sold their product by the barrel all over the world). I used it anyway, the results were that very expensive bearing failures were a thing of the past. And I was given a very nice check by the company for solving an expensive problem. I also wager that I have used more Anti-seize than everyone one on this forum combined, over the years. Yes, you might have problems of loosening if used when vibration is encountered, but that's why they have Loctite and lock washers. Yes, I'm crazy, always have been...(See my Profile)

'95 R.R.C. Lwb
'76 Series III Hybrid 109
'70 Rover 3500S
.

[greenmeanie]

Anti-seize can no more change a torque reading than '3-In-One' oil. Yes, you might have problems of loosening if used when vibration is encountered, but that's why they have Loctite and lock washers. Yes, I'm crazy, always have been...(See my Profile

.

So you don't think anti sieze or 3 in 1 oil change the effect of the torque you are applying to achieve that torque wrench reading? You also think you can use Loctite on the same bolt you have applied anti sieze? What unique ideas.

[mearstrae]

So you don't think anti sieze or 3 in 1 oil change the effect of the torque you are applying to achieve that torque wrench reading? You also think you can use Loctite on the same bolt you have applied anti sieze? What unique ideas.

That's not what I said... Let me reinterate, what lubricant you put on the threads won't change the torque values (how can it change the stretch of a bolt?). Maybe the effort of turning them in would change, but not the torque. Sand or some such on the threads will change the torque values, or too much lube at the bottom of a blind hole, causing a hydro-static lock and later as the pressure eqaulizes, a loose bolt. In some areas Anti-seize can cause problems, I wouldn't use it on wheel studs or hub bolts. And of course you don't Anti-seize the theads you use loctite on. My unique ideas come from over 40 years experience. (And a bit of mechanical education...)

'95 R.R.C. Lwb
'76 Series III Hybrid 109
'70 Rover 3500S

[Apis Mellifera]

Maybe the effort of turning them in would change, but not the torque.

That's what torque is: turning force on an object (generally speaking, of course). Applying anything to the threads most certainly will alter torque wrench settings. Many torque specifications are given in both wet and dry, while some specify dry only. There are a couple of forces in play with fasteners: torque is one and another is the friction associated with clamping forces and thread engagement. Obviously oiling threads will lower the friction between threads/washers/etc and could create a scenario where torque specs are not met, but the tensile strength of the fastener is exceeded. Fasteners like torque-to-yield bolts are designed with torque/friction/stretch/etc all considered.

Not trying to be an anorak, but lubricant on the threads does change torque values. There's a squirming two-year old on my lap, so hopefully my explanation made sense without sounding jerky.

[greenmeanie]

...and the man nails it in one. Here is a nice little presentation (http://sections.asme.org/wts/Flyers/FTI%20JG%20PP%20Presentation%20Torque%20Tension%20 090419.pdf) on the subject from ASME to save a lot of writing.

[gudjeon]

A good rule of thumb to get stuff tight is to turn it until it strips, then back off a quarter turn. You can also use loctite and never-seize at the same time if your not sure what to use.:p

Yes, any lube on threads will change the resultant torque applied to a fastener. It would be the same reason that a fine thread bolt can hold as well as a coarse thread bolt with less torque. There is less resistance or more mechanical advantage as it is easier to go up a lesser inclined plane. Lubrication on the threads has the same effect. It lessens the resistance the threads have on each other. Torque values given are usually given for a dry thread. Still, you would need Tarzan and two apes to snap a spark plug.

[kenscs]

I can tell you one thing I applied to Spark Plug threads that was not in a service bulletin, Pepsi Can Thread Sealer. I will try to keep the story quick. Driving down FDR Drive on the East Side of New York City in my 1981 Chrystler K Car (yes, I was broke), large popping sounds started out of the engine like a machine gun and it lost power. I pulled over to the side, opened the hood, and found the engine had ejected one of the spark plugs. It was still attached to the spark plug wire. When I looked, the engine block threads were stripped. Using my McGuiver skills, I took an aluminum Pepsi can, cut strip of it off like Teflon Tape with a scissors, wrapped it around the spark plug threads and screwed it back in the block (I don't remember why the heck I had my universal spark plug wrench with me, but remember it was a K Car). It worked perfect and I did not touch it again for at least 20k miles. Eventually, the shock towers rotted out and I had it towed away for $25. Good times. I used to leave that car open parked on the street in NYC and not one person ever went in it. I am not sure what would have happened 1.) If I had applied Anti-Seize on my Pepsi can, and 2.) If I had used a torque wrench ;-)

[Whiterabbit]

I use it by the bucket load! When I was an active pipe fitter it went on all flange gaskets,bolts and pipe threads. (industrial)
It's great for leaving silver finger prints on the doors and seat!
O2 sensors are sensitive to it though.
Don't want to use that high temp paint on the exhaust manifold that just burns and flakes off within a year?? Paint it with silver high temp anti-seize and rub off the excess. Lasts for years and years!!!!:thumb-up:
All my gaskets on the engine are coated with it! Makes it easy to remove and no leaks!

[jac04]

... and no leaks!
Your story was semi-believable up to this point. ;)


...and I can't actually believe there is a 3-page thread about whether or not to use anti-seize. Well, actually I guess I can.

[I Leak Oil]

[QUOTE=jac04;90068...and I can't actually believe there is a 3-page thread about whether or not to use anti-seize. Well, actually I guess I can.[/QUOTE]

Ah yes, you almost forgot where you are. I find myself in that situation now and then too so you're not always alone there. My secret? Change the settings to allow more posts per page. Doesn't really change anything but it gives you a feel good attitude when you only see one page vs. three.

[Whiterabbit]

It's true I tell 'ya! Only the gaskets I've not messed with still leak. Water pump,oil pan,exhaust manifold,all the gaskets on the top end except the head gasket I coated with it and they're still bone dry! Every other damn gasket/seal on the truck leaks like the Titanic though!:rolleyes: My truck works on the constant loss principle-just keep adding, never have to change fluids, 'cause it ain't in ther long enough to get dirty! :p

[busboy]

The simple answer is never use anti seize compound on any bolt/fastener that has a specified torque unless it specifically calls for a "wet" torque value. A torque wrench can only measures friction, so if you lube the threads then the correct tension on the bolt will be reached far before the correct reading on the torque wrench. If you keep going with the torque wrench you will over stretch the bolt and possible snap it.