Oil Pressure

[Jim-ME]

I know the oil presure specs for a 2.25 Rover engine should be between 45 and 65 lbs @ 2000 rpms. What should a healthy engine read at idle? I am running 10W40 Valvoline for engines with more than 75,000 miles and my oil pressure reads 10 to 15 lbs at idle. Should I start to be concerned about engine health? Would it help to change to Castrol 20W50? Also, my mechanical gauge is currently hooked up to the oil filter assembly via a banjo and adapter where the oil warning light sender screws in and I've often wondered if I'm getting a true reading. Is there a "better" place to tie into? Thanks in advance,
Jim

[jp-]

A good question.

I too have my oil gauge tied into a banjo fitting on the 88". The 109" is a bit different. On the 109", my gauge drops to around 20-30 lbs. at idle. The longer at idle, the lower it goes. If left idling it usually will get no lower than 20. This is on the 2.6l six.

On the 88", I put in an oil pressure gauge off a tractor, it has no numbers, just yellow, green, and red. Yellow is labeled "low idle", green is "normal", and of course red is "high". I like this gauge, even though it doesn't have numbers. It usually never falls below midway on the yellow. If I had to guess, I'd say that that would also be around 20lbs.

If the engine doesn't make any knocking sounds when accelerating from low idle, I would think that you would be ok. Although, 10 does sound a little low. A thicker oil will help, but it could also be air in the oil gauge line. You can bleed the line by loosening the nut on the back of the gauge slightly while the engine is running.

I use 15w-40 in both engines.

[Jeff Aronson]

Jim,

I have the same style oil pressure/water temp gauge as you. Sometimes mine needs a "tap" to get the needle to move up [particularly when cold] but generally speaking, this is the more accurate gauge.

When my engine is cold, oil pressure at start up is 40 and it goes right to 60 under load until it warms up. Once there, the idle pressure is closer to 20, and I keep the idle speed quite low by choice.

When the gauge dips under heavy braking, or the oil warning light comes on for a moment under heavy braking, then I know it's time to either add a quart of oil or look up the mileage since the last oil change.

I run 10 -40w oil this time of year, 10-30 in the winter. Many owners chose 15-40w "diesel" oil or 20-50w oil for their engines. Remember that 20-50w wasn't even available when the cars were designed.

Oil pressure that seems to leap about, even when the oil is clean, is usually a sign of bearing wear.

Enjoy your Rover,

Jeff

[daveb]

hi jim

if you are really concerned you can try another guage, if you have one laying around. in any case, rule of thumb is minimum 10psi for every 1000rpm.

i'd be much more concenred with the higher rpm pressure figures, but the idel numbers are usually where you start to notice a problem. everything that jeff says is good advice too.

rgrds
dave in dc



I know the oil presure specs for a 2.25 Rover engine should be between 45 and 65 lbs @ 2000 rpms. What should a healthy engine read at idle? I am running 10W40 Valvoline for engines with more than 75,000 miles and my oil pressure reads 10 to 15 lbs at idle. Should I start to be concerned about engine health? Would it help to change to Castrol 20W50? Also, my mechanical gauge is currently hooked up to the oil filter assembly via a banjo and adapter where the oil warning light sender screws in and I've often wondered if I'm getting a true reading. Is there a "better" place to tie into? Thanks in advance,
Jim

[jp-]

everything that jeff says is good advice too.

Sometimes I wonder why I'm really here?
I guess I'm just not good enough, huh Dave???:(

[Jim-ME]

Thanks to all that replied. I never questioned accurracy of the gauge as it is brand new, but I have noticed that especially in 80 degree weather the idle pressure has dropped. I'm not as concerned about engine health after reading the replies but would like to know where I can find or which manufacturer makes 15W40 oil. I feel that 20W50 is to heavy. As I plan to have a 2.5L diesel installed down the road I just want to take to best care of what I have until the $ are there for the swap. Yes Jeff, I do enjoy her and am having an absolute ball!
Jim

[Chris McKnight]

Many owners chose 15-40w "diesel" oil or 20-50w oil for their engines. Remember that 20-50w wasn't even available when the cars were designed.
The green bible recommends different viscosities for different brands, but they list 20w/50 for Petrofina and 20-50 for BP, as well as 15W/50 for almost all the other listed brands. Maybe the manual has been updated.

I've always used Castrol 20W/50, simply becaused they list Castrol 15W50 but the 20W/50 is easier to find. I switch to 10W/40 for the winters now that I'm no longer living in Georgia.

It also depends on the type of climate. The SIII GB has these temperature ranges in its extreme temperature chart:

Degrees are Celsius
up to -10: 5W/20, 5W/30, 5W/40
-20 to +10: 10W/30
-20 and up: 10W/40, 10W/50
-10 and up: 15W/40, 15W/50
0 and up: 20W/40, 20W/50


Chris

[daveb]

I guess I'm just not good enough, huh Dave???:(

:thumb-up: no. sorry.


just kidding.:D


Seriously, I just felt like jeff's comments meshed with my experience as well. so rather than repeat it I just put in a "+1'.

your comments sounded good but I never had a 6 cylinder LR, never used a tractor OP guage and never had to bleed the guage's line so I couldn't really comment. I have heard that the lower end bearings in the 2.6 should be considered a wear item and if you have any question about the oil pressure then you should change them. But like I said I never owned one, so that could just be hearsay.

Another comment, if you wait until there is bottom noise regardless of your engine type you have waited too long to address the situation, and the crank will likely need to be reground and a full rebuild in order.

My experience with the 2.25 is that the engine mains go, starting with the center one. then the rods, cam bearings and the oil pump. I was able to restore decent OP in my 88 by swapping in new mains (except for the rear) and rods and rebuilding the pump. That was with the engine in the car.

rgrds
Dave

[Jeff Aronson]

Jim,

Since I had a Rovers North rebuilt engine installed in my Rover about 10 years ago, I've not run 15-40w oil. I did so routinely in the previous engine.

I do remember that it was not available in the big box auto store [AutoZone, VIP, etc.], but NAPA, Carquest and their ilk carried it all the time under their private brand name oils.

As for the value of any advice I offer, I know that Dave B was just being kind to me. If I were really on top of Land Rover maintenance, I would not be able to write as many "Lite Break" stories as I've done :). Dave has witnessed my off road driving and repair capabilities at East Coast events; I'm as inept as a talentless contenstant on American Idol!

Jeff

[daveb]

Yikes! Since I agreed with you I guess that puts me in the same boat. Somewhere I have video of Jeff driving off road. He does just fine!

No footage of Jeff doing repairs though :)

Jeff I thought your "reality show" experience was limited to "Pimp My Rover" :)

I read your LB stories before I ever even owned a LR. You probably have more Series LR miles under your belt than most of us.

cheers
Dave






As for the value of any advice I offer, I know that Dave B was just being kind to me. If I were really on top of Land Rover maintenance, I would not be able to write as many "Lite Break" stories as I've done :). Dave has witnessed my off road driving and repair capabilities at East Coast events; I'm as inept as a talentless contenstant on American Idol!

Jeff

[luckyjoe]

Actually, 20W50 is closer to what would have been used in 1960 (and a better choice for 2.25l) than light multi-grade oils such as 10W30/10W40.

Your motor will thank you...

Tom P.

[jcasteel]

Could someone post a picture of this banjo fitting and oil pressure guage? Maybe relative part numbers or thread sizes if I'm able to pick up the parts from the local plumbing store. I'm looking for a cheap way to monitor oil pressure and water temperature until I can upgrade to a Smiths dual guage.

[luckyjoe]

John,

Here is an earlier thread where LR part numbers were discussed:

http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187

Regards,

Tom P.

[yorker]

15w40 is available everywhere now- it is a VERY common diesel oil and since diesel engines often require a LOT of oil the 15w40 often comes in gallon or larger containers which I find very convenient. I use Shell Rotella but there are others out there that are good too.




More than you ever wanted to know about motor oil:
http://www.off-road.com/RoverWeb/OilFAQ.html


Multi viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter, in the summer, the highest temperature you expect. The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits that can cause ring sticking and other problems. 10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot of polymers (synthetics excluded) to achieve that range. This has caused problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all engines. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best.

Very few manufactures recommend 10W-40 any more, and some threaten to void warranties if it is used. It was not included in this article for that reason. 20W-50 is the same 30 point spread, but because it starts with a heavier base it requires less viscosity index improvers (polymers) to do the job.there is a more updated version of this document here:
http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html


http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/misc/oily202.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/misc/Oils.jpg

[JimCT]

We are running 0W-40 Mobil One in our '68 ambulance/camper. Starts in the dead of winter like it is 70 outside. Good for the heat of summer too. I get almost instant oil pressure, even during the coldest days in winter. Good flow through the oil cooler too. An when you pull off the valve cover to set the valves it looks like new. Jim

[TedW]

It is my understanding that synthetic oils can have a wider spread in viscosity without the risk of thermal breakdown of the polymers described above. I believe that this is because they are simply more stable throughout any given temperature range.
I have a new engine (under 3000 mi. so far) and plan to run synthetic(probably 5w40 Castrol Syntec) when I hit 3k. My mechanic (I believe everything he tells me) says to break the engine in on the "dino juice" (regular oil).
A change I strongly recommend is synthetic gear oil. A huge change in performance was my experience after making the switch.
One very cold night during a winter in the early 90's I left a bottle of synthetic gear lube (Amsoil, I think - available from our hosts!) and a bottle of standard 90w hypoy out on the porch. It hit -20F that morning. The regular gear oil came out of the bottle like it was rubber cement, but the synthetic seemed little different than when it was warm. I will never run regular hypoy again.
The only problem: It leaks out faster!
I would very much like to hear other opinions about synthetic versus regular oils, especially if you have read of negatives regarding synthetics.

[LRBear]

The only 2 problems w Synthetic that I'm aware of are:

-the higher cost. (Although this can be offset by the ability to extend your oil change intervals.) AND this isn't as bad of a cost delta for the do-it-yourself job as it is for the Jiffy-Lube job.

-the uncanny ability of synthetics to find even the smallest leak path. (Although this probably also indicates an increased ability to lubricate even the "tight spots".)

In general an older engine might not be a good candidate for synthetic simply because of all of the "new" leaks you'll discover. But a newer engine will reap all of the benefits AND last much longer! (Still, I'd go ahead and try it in an "older" engine, then determine if the "new" leaks are significant...)

Yes, most mechanics will recommend that you use the "dinosaur-oil" for an new engine break in.

-Bear- :cheers:

[TSR53]

...The only problem: It leaks out faster!...

Land Rover has always been ahead of the times. That's the built-in Land Rover GPS system! Follow the trail... so at least you know how to get back home.

[luckyjoe]

Ted,

I see the increased cost of synthetics as an burden for a Series used off-road. It's much more expensive to change the fluids after significant water crossings, so I doubt I'd ever really see the advantage of extended change intervals. I'd gladly welcome the synthetic advatages, but in a Series I'm not sold.

I run Mobil Delvac1 5W40 in my VW Tdi and it is a fantastic oil. It's full synthetic from group 3 base stocks. If you are looking for a 5W40 full synth, then I would look no further than this oil. I've run it in a high mileage D1 4.0L as well and no increase in leaks.

Tom P.

[TedW]

Tom,
I agree with your point on cost vs. benefit, especially if you are doing water crossings on a regular basis and change fluids frequently. I find Synthetics to be preferable because of the temperature swings up here and because (as I understand it) they just run cooler and do a better job of lubricating and preventing wear. I do not extend my changes - every 3k for me. I do think that synthetics are a no-brainer for everyone with a Fairey overdrive with its small oil capacity.
You are right about the Delvac. Great stuff. I actually have a stock of VW/Audi spec 5w40 Castrol Syntec (from Belgium! Smells like good beer!) that I plan to run. Also group 3 base stocks, if I remember correctly.
Some people go nuts about oil. Castrol has a 0w30 Syntec that was green and smelled like gummy bears (still might). Supposedly the elixir of youth for the Audi 1.8T engine. People on the Audiworld site were hoarding it, and sending messages about which Autozone stores had it in stock. They would even post pics of their garage walls lined with bottles of the stuff. The conversation got to the point where people were comparing lot numbers printed on the bottles. Must not have any kids or aging parents!

[jp-]

Ted,

You don't compare lot numbers?


...I didn't know oil had lot numbers

[yorker]

Tom
Some people go nuts about oil. Castrol has a 0w30 Syntec that was green and smelled like gummy bears (still might). Supposedly the elixir of youth for the Audi 1.8T engine. People on the Audiworld site were hoarding it, and sending messages about which Autozone stores had it in stock. They would even post pics of their garage walls lined with bottles of the stuff. The conversation got to the point where people were comparing lot numbers printed on the bottles. Must not have any kids or aging parents!

That must be that "German Castrol" I was reading about on the oil guy page...

[jp-]

Oh by the way, I wasn't going to say anything, but I can't help it.

The low oil weights 5W-40, 0W-30 are meant for very tight tolerance engines. i.e. not Land Rover engines. You really don't want to run anything thinner than a 10W-30, unless you are continually running in temps colder than -10 to -20. Match the oil with the engine and with the temp you regularly drive in.

[jp-]

I predict a CSI episode where the killer is caught by the lot number on his motor oil.

Could happen...

[TedW]

Yes, Yorker, it is the "German Castrol" discussed at great length on the oil page.
It supposedly was all base 3 ester stock (which is best, I am told) as opposed to the 'murrican made motor honey.

[yorker]

Yes, Yorker, it is the "German Castrol" discussed at great length on the oil page.
It supposedly was all base 3 ester stock (which is best, I am told) as opposed to the 'murrican made motor honey.

Yep that stuff is supposed to be great oil- I never hunted it down though.


German Castrol FAQ
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=711450&an=0&page=0#Post711450


Thin Oil thread:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=711581&an=0&page=0#Post711581

[TSR53]

http://www.roversnorth.com/store/images/Product/icon/AME04.jpghttp://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-8831-amsoil-15w-40-diesel-oil-gallon.aspx

I run Amsoil 15-40 (AME) Heavy Duty in my 1995 Audi //S6 20v turbo - since day one. It now has 178,000 miles and the engine sounds and drives like it is brand new. Also, I use Mahle oil filters and 5,000 miles oil changes, which keep it purrrrin'. I use it all year round even in sub-zero weather with no leaks. Since we are an Amsoil dealer, I order it by the case, comes with four easy to pour gallon containers. Less landfill waste.

I plan to swap over my new-to-me 1991 2.1 litre wasserboxer Volkswagen Westfalia to the same oil, it has 149,000 original miles. I've used Mobil 1 15-50W in my older Audi ur-quattros but, sometimes when hot (track tempertures - Lime Rock Park '96) the Mobil 1 just got thin and my oil pressure dropped.

I am seriously contemplating swapping over my 2006 MINI Cooper S from the factory 5-30W Castrol Syntec to Amsoil...:sly:

I also ran the 15-40W HD in my ex-1994 Defender 90 NAS soft top. Pulled a Coleman Taos pop-up (and fully laden rig with wife, daughter, stuffed animals, mtn. bikes and all gear) all the way to Colorado nationals and back to Vermont in 2001. Vail Pass was brutal. Better yet, after having the pedal matted for hours coming up hwy 70 to Silverthorne, CO, We then drove south on hwy 9 past Breckenridge, CO over and up and down several Continentai divide passes with the pedal mashed again. Worked awesome.

:thumb-up: This oil is da kine.

[jac04]

Some people go nuts about oil. Castrol has a 0w30 Syntec that was green and smelled like gummy bears (still might). ... The conversation got to the point where people were comparing lot numbers printed on the bottles.
I have a 'stash' of green 0W-30 German Castrol Syntec that I use in my Prodrive Stage 3 Subaru WRX (2.0 turbo running 19 psi of boost). And, yes, you need to have certain lot numbers to ensure that you were getting the green versus the newer gold oil.:thumb-up:

[jac04]

Oh by the way, I wasn't going to say anything, but I can't help it.

The low oil weights 5W-40, 0W-30 are meant for very tight tolerance engines. i.e. not Land Rover engines. You really don't want to run anything thinner than a 10W-30, unless you are continually running in temps colder than -10 to -20. Match the oil with the engine and with the temp you regularly drive in.
Don't be fooled by the low "W" number. You really need to look at the actual viscosity specs of the oil that you are using. Check out the FAQ link posted by yorker.

[TedW]

I run it in my chipped '02 A4. Also have a bunch of Belgian made 5w40 Syntec (meets all the fancy VW/Audi specs) that I plan to run in my new (not rebuilt) 2.25 after break-in. Anything to make it last. And no, I will not extend drain intervals. Just want to keep wear to a minimum and get better mileage.
My new 2.25 engine runs at +/-75psi oil pressure with GTX 10w40 (capillary oil gauge - looks just like the original electric one) and around 50 psi at idle. It will be interesting to see what my oil pressure is in the heat of August after I change over to the Syntec.

[Tim Smith]

I run what ever is on sale at the moment. So there!

I figure that these 2.25's were never made to run fast or hard or on premium. So why spend up to $10 a quart for high end racing fluids if you are just driving a road going tractor?

Maybe I got too caught up in the WRX/Audi/VW comments... cause I'm all revved up now.

---

By the way, I switched my Mercedes 300d with around 225,000 on the clock over to Mobil 1. And I think that was one of the worst decisions I ever made. After it got run in, I lost compression. I can't point my finger directly at the stuff (as the car did have a lot of miles on it) but I can at least wave my hand in the direction of the empty bottles of Mobil 1 and say I don't like it.

If your motor has a lot of miles on it and things are going just fine, then I suggest you stick with what works.

Cheers,
Tim

[Jim-ME]

I have been reading this thread since I started it and figured I owed it to everyone to let you know what I ended up doing. I drained the 10W-40 Valvoline and changed to 20W-50 Castrol GTX. I stayed with, but replaced with a new one, the K&N oil filter. As a result my idle oil pressure never drops below 20 psi and I'm content with that.
Jim

[TedW]

I don't have the owner's manual in front of me but that is my recollection. Does anyone have a manual handy to check?

[Tim Smith]

I don't have the owner's manual in front of me but that is my recollection. Does anyone have a manual handy to check?

Not as far as I know, but I don't have the book handy to quote it.

Any one have it handy?

[greenmeanie]

With 8:1 max compression and more likely 7:1 there is really no need to shoot for the high octane numbers. My emissions figures have always been a little better on 87 than 91 (AZ grades.)

Cheers
Gregor

[yorker]

4 cylinder petrol. This engine is seriously overbuilt (TerriAnn has 300K+ miles on hers). Compression is low so it runs on just about any type of petrol. It has a single downdraft carb, circular intake ports, roller cam, 20 Amp generator. The engine gets about 15 to 18 MPG and runs smoothly under load below 1000RPM. Some 2l engines have a multi-fuel capability whereby the engine can burn a petrol/diesel, or petrol/ kerosene mixture by adjusting the distributor. Some owners manuals state not to burn petrol with an octane rating of under 63 in the engine for performance reasons.

http://www.lrfaq.org/Series/FAQ.S.Engines.html


But didn't octane ratings change? I thought they did or they just figure them differently with an average or something...

[jac04]

My original owner's manual from my '63 states that the distributor is factory set for 80 octane, and the timing can be retarded as required using the vernier dial to eliminate pinging.

I also remember the same as yorker - I believe that the octane rating is calculated differently now.

[rovertek]

if your using a smiths combo guage i wouldnt go by the reading (they never read correctly anyhow) i would use a test guage such as mac or snap on for a correct reading you can also buy a SW guage for about $20 from your parts store and connect to the banjo fitting just be careful you have the proper thread pitch adapter, i have never seen an old engine read more than 45 and usually they are about 15 or 20 at idle, i allways use 20/50 castrol all year around, and remember when the LR was new it called for( sae 30 ) oil which is thicker cold then the 20/50 because it was not a multi grade oil ,the first number is the thickness of the oil cold, when the engine oil temp rises the the molicules of oil expand to the second number of the rating resulting in greater protection at higher temps, and if its not rapping i wouldnt worry about bearings, or pump unless your press test is lower than specified.

[jac04]

... and remember when the LR was new it called for( sae 30 ) oil which is thicker cold then the 20/50 because it was not a multi grade oil....
This is not an accurate statement.
For example, let's take a look at the specs for Exxon Superflo SAE 30 versus SAE 20W-50.

SAE 30:
Viscosity at 40 C = 100 cSt
Viscosity at 100 C = 11.5 cSt

SAE 20W-50
Viscosity at 40 C = 162 cSt
Viscosity at 100 C = 18.1 cSt

As you can see, the straight 30 weight oil actually has a lower low temp. viscosity than the 20W-50.
Here are the specs:
http://www.exxon.md/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/Pds_Files/glxxenpvlexsuperflo.pdf

[rovertek]

Not as far as I know, but I don't have the book handy to quote it.

Any one have it handy? i have a late 2a manual and it reads for the 2.25 4 cyl, 8.0:1 comp: TDC when using 90 octane fuel, 3 deg ATDC when using 85 octane fuel,for 7.0:1 comp: 3 deg BTDC when using 83 octane fuel ,TDC when using 75 octane fuel , for the 2.6 six cyl., 7.8:1 comp :2 deg ATDC when using 90 octane , for 7.0:1 comp: TDC when using 90 octane, 2 deg BTDC when using 83 octane, so my take is dont use more than 90 octane and remember if you use lead additive (which most called for unless you have hardened seats) they usually raise the octane rating... should pinging develop move the vernier adjustment (octane selector) clockwise to retard slightly if needed.

[yorker]

I still meet old timers who swear by straight 30 weight oil... I'll stick to multigrade myself- I've tried to run 20w50 year round but this winter it really proved to be too thick for jan-fab use. The 88 still starts at -20F but it took a long time to build oil pressure.