New Rover: 2.25 diesel advice needed

[roverjohn]

I just picked up this 1967 (67' titled/65'build) over the weekend. I got it locally from the daughter of the original owner. The dad bought it new in 1967 and he ran a diesel service shop up until the mid-80's. He died in the early 90's and the daughter used it to plow snow up until the plow broke a few years back. She told me that it has not left the property (except being trailered to a mechanic's shop) or been out of low range for 18 years!

My plan is to just drive it and remove some of the "custom" accessories; starting with the plow stuff. It has a hydraulic gear box mounted to the engine for the plow. Anyone need it?

On the test drive, I took it about a mile up the road. It runs and drives and stops. However, on the test drive it was smoking REALLY BAD. I mean a cloud of thick smoke behind me that I could not see anything through it. I turned around and took it back. When I parked it and shut it off, the smoke kept coming out of the stack; yes, it has a smoke stack (factory Rover, right?!), Weird. I stood on the back hitch and smelled the smoke. It smelled like burning death. Something was cremated in there by me driving it.

The smoke has cleared up a little but it still blows some white smoke. I am a little concerned but I think I should drive it more especially after I remove the stack and get a new exhaust system.

Anybody have any other thoughts?

Also, it currently has a 1-3/4" exhaust on it, should I go a little bigger for better breathing? I have done this on other diesels but this is my first Rover diesel.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[o2batsea]

Having lived with a 2 1/4 diesel for ten years or so, here's my advice:
Do all the fluids and belts. Check the brakes. Put some good tires on it. Drive it. I bet the white smoke will clear up as the injectors get some diesel thru them. It is a testament to the engine that the thing fired.
It will not go fast, no matter how much you futz with it or tune it. These engines are ridiculously slow. You'll see.
It is what it is. Learn to shift early and often and it will last forever.
Semi original LHD factory diesels are few and far between. There are some diesel-only parts on that truck that are simply unavailable anywhere at any price. Don't fool with it, please. If you want a custom Rover get a Series three and chop it all up.

[Wolf323i]

I like the stack I feel like I'm always gassing the people on the side walk!

[roverjohn]

Having lived with a 2 1/4 diesel for ten years or so, here's my advice:
Do all the fluids and belts. Check the brakes. Put some good tires on it. Drive it. I bet the white smoke will clear up as the injectors get some diesel thru them. It is a testament to the engine that the thing fired.
It will not go fast, no matter how much you futz with it or tune it. These engines are ridiculously slow. You'll see.
It is what it is. Learn to shift early and often and it will last forever.
Semi original LHD factory diesels are few and far between. There are some diesel-only parts on that truck that are simply unavailable anywhere at any price. Don't fool with it, please. If you want a custom Rover get a Series three and chop it all up.

I have no intention of customizing it at all. I like it for what it is; slow, stinky, and rattly and mostly original. I have had numerous diesels but always of the Toyota mark and as mentioned, this is my first Rover diesel so I am a little unfamiliar with them.

My plan is to:
1) clean all the years of grime and goo off of it. I know I will be opening a can of worms here as it will leak all over the place. However, I got to see what I have and what kind of shape it is in.
2) adjust things as necessary
3) drive it

I am with you, I am hoping that the smoke will clear up after running some fuel through it and getting it hot. I might try a fuel conditioner and injector cleaner to see if that helps. I might even try a set of injectors or have mine tested and/or rebuilt. My fear is that I will need a timing chain and gear set or worse.


Thanks for the advice o2batsea.

[o2batsea]

Oil changes and filter are by far the nastiest aspect of the truck. I assume it has the canister type filter. You have to undo the bolt on bottom as ink black oil goes all over everywhere. What a mess.
Hope the exhaust manifold is good with no cracks and is (hope) not so rusted up that you can't get it apart. These are unobtanium, but maybe available used.
The stock exhaust should be routed horizontally outward toward the fender and then follow the angle of the splashguard rearward. From there it is a straight shot thru the muffler and then out over the axle and takes a left turn out under the rear tub corner. It is slightly different from the petrol exhaust. The OE one lasts maybe 5 years before it rusts out.
You should have the pull stop cable on the lower dash panel. These are no longer available anywhere. The LHD throttle linkage is also not available for love or money. Ditto the hand throttle. You can get reproduction ones tho. The springs and some of the clips for the linkage are available from the UK. The Lucas CAV injection pump (as well as the filters) is pretty common and was also used on countless gazillion Perkins diesels. Parts are easy to get and you can often find them listed on ebay for a few bucks. These also came on tractors with Perkins, Lehman and Leyland diesels. Also unavailable is the diesel-only light switch as the petrol trucks had the ignition key in the light switch and the diesel start switch is on the lower dash. The pull switches that operate the dome light and the dash lamps are about impossible to come by. There are no reproductions of that switch. "Lucas" is no longer in business, so anything electrical that you try to find parts for are now Chinese knock offs. Same for the warning lights, they are unavailable except as reproduction. The diesel also has a low fuel warning light. The sender for the tank is no longer available, so lets hope yours is working. The 2A speedo cable and speedo for the diesel are reproduction now. if yours has the trip meter then you have a very rare unobtanium unit there.
If it has the "Rover Diesel" badge on the grille, you are in luck. The last time I saw one of them on Ebay it went for about $150.00.
Unfortunately the PO poked some rather inconvenient holes in your precious 2A doors to fit the truck mirrors. Perhaps the damage isn't so bad that it could be remedied at some point. The doors you have are extremely rare and unavailable.
The other rare items are the fender fronts with the two lights, and the upper tailgate assembly.
It appears that the truck was treated as most Land Rovers; as a tool to get stuff done. Consequently, it has been "ridden hard and put away wet". Not unexpected. Be glad it wasn't hauled off to the crusher when they were done with it.

[Wolf323i]

How much of the smoking can be mitigated. Everyone that sees mine pretty says yea it's an old diesel, but the old Mercedes don't seem to smoke nearly as bad.

[o2batsea]

What color is the smoke? White, grey or black?

[roverjohn]

The smoke is white. I feel like I need to get it out and drive and see if it clears up at all.

Unfortunately, the PO decided to do a few upgrades to the dash. The original headlight/key switch has been removed as well as the push button for the starter.

o2batsea: do you mind posting a pic of your diesel exhaust as well as the dash layout? I would like to see how mine has been altered. I know the exhaust is not factory due to the stack. As mentioned, this is my first diesel Rover but I am quite familiar with the petrol Series; just not the diesel.

As far as rust, this Rover is rust free. It is a clean Western Colorado truck that has not been driven in the winter except for plowing a driveway. The frame and bulkhead are immaculate.

It does have the Rover diesel badge. Kind of cool.

Here are a couple of more pics. Note the hideous door panel.

[SafeAirOne]

I wish you luck, but if you have plumes of WHITE smoke, I doubt it'll "settle in" by putting a few miles on the odometer. I'd just time the injector pump to the engine THEN once you've done that, cross your fingers and drive it hoping for the best...

[o2batsea]

Well, I wish I could send you a pic of my OE diesel exhaust. You're about 8 years too late for that. I put in a V8 a while back. Now I'm rebuilding it all as a coiler hybrid. There's a 200 tdi in it now. The dash you have is missing the light switch which was in the place where the square patch piece is. That dash is toast as it has holes now where you don't want them.
There is no push button start. The key has three positions, OFF, RUN, START. The light switch was like a petrol one, but had no keyway. Looks like they rerouted some wiring to a few pull switches out of a Chris Craft or something for lights.
It can all be put back right without too much trouble.

[SalemRover]

Having just gone through many parts of a 2.5 NA Diesel engine. I can say that there are tons of common parts between the 2.25 and 2.5. For starters the gaskets for the head and exhaust are the same, which would imply that the exhaust/intake manifold are interchangeable. The valve cover gasket is close but the 2.25 one had a strip in the middle I am unfamiliar with. Valve guides and valve stem seals are the same as well. I did not replace the rocker arm but would be shocked if they were any different, heck I would be surprised if the 2.25 gas had different rocker arms. After rebuilding the head on mine I was amazed at how many parts cross between the 2.25 and 2.5. I suppose it makes sense as they gained the .25 volume via the stroke if memory serves me well.

Good luck with the heavy clouds!

[I Leak Oil]

Having just gone through many parts of a 2.5 NA Diesel engine. I can say that there are tons of common parts between the 2.25 and 2.5. For starters the head and exhaust gaskets are the same, which would imply that the exhaust/intake manifold are interchangeable. The valve cover gasket is close but the 2.25 one had a strip in the middle I am unfamiliar with. Valve guides and valve stem seals are the same as well. I did not replace the rocker arm but would be shocked if they were any different, heck I would be surprised if the 2.25 gas had different rocker arms. After rebuilding the head on mine I was amazed at how many parts cross between the 2.25 and 2.5. I suppose it makes sense as they gained the .25 volume via the stroke if memory serves me well.

Good luck with the heavy clouds!

You mean the head gasket is the same, not the head itself right?

[SalemRover]

Yes, just the gasket. The heads are quite different.

[I Leak Oil]

I wasn't sure myself. Will the 2.5 head fit on the 2.25 and vice-versa?

[SalemRover]

Its a tough call as the hotspots are not the same and their volume dictates the compression more than the head. I know that someone on this board a few years ago had a hybrid 2.25 / 2.5 engine. Basically using the timing chain assembly / IP from the 2.25 on a 2.5 block with a 2.25 head. I have no idea how this worked out in the long run but it ran, so there is that. I have a hard enough time keeping mine in good order that I dont feel any desire to play frankendiesel. I do believe the injectors are identical as well, which means the crush and copper washers, spill rail, etc. are all cross compatible.

[Jim-ME]

Make sure you use a diesel supplment. Todays' fuel is low on sulphur which is a lubricant so replace it. I run Optilube and my engine hardley smokes. I'd fill it up with a supplement in the fuel and run it for a while.Get fuel where you know it is fresh.
Jim

[roverjohn]

I always run a diesel supplement in my diesels; either CTS, 2 stroke engine oil, or some heavily filtered used veggie oil.

Yesterday, I gave it a really good scrub and it cleaned up nicely. Also, a friend of a friend who happens to be diesel mechanic stopped by and gave me some advice. He suggested running a heavy duty diesel injection cleaner like BG244K and just driving it for a tank or two. He thinks it might clear up after awhile. If not, we will try some new injectors or have mine rebuilt. If we change the injectors, we will probably do a compression test to see what kind of shape the engine is in.

Before I start driving it, I will change all the fluids and start fresh. Also, I have to get it titled and registered and it will be the first time in 18 years!

Anyone have much experience in diesel injection cleaners? The mechanic friend suggested BG244K but I have heard great things about the John Deere cleaner. I will most likely go with the JD one as I have seen it clean up fouled injectors on a Cummins 4BT. It was amazing how well it worked.

Thanks again.

[SafeAirOne]

I figure that if I strongly suspect a fuel injector problem, I might as well get new (reman) injectors for $45.95 each rather than screw around with my dogged-out, clogged, worn injectors.

[Jim-ME]

I just recently bought 4 reman injectors for my engine and with shipping they came to $37.50 ea. I have yet to install them but they sure do look very nice.
Jim

[roverjohn]

Where might you be sourcing these injectors? RN says they only go back to engine suffix J and mine is suffix F.

[antichrist]

Good diesel injection shops should be able to rebuild them for you. The pump as well, if you want to go that route, which might not be a bad idea.
Nice icing on the cake with the Diesel badge. I've been on the lookout for a number of years but don't want to pay the ebay prices. I have relatives on the lookout at boot sales in the UK.

If you're just going to toss the plow pump I'll take it off your hands.

[roverjohn]

I have called a somewhat local diesel injection shop and it is $30 labor to rebuild each injector. The tech said it could be $10-$60 for each injector in parts. Then I have shipping to and from so the cost is starting to really add up. If I can get new injectors for $60 each, then I would certainly go that route.

I had a very experienced diesel tech stop by my house and look at it. He confirmed that it is dumping fuel and this is what is causing the white smoke. He strongly suggested a heavy duty injection cleaner BEFORE I start messing with new injectors and/or pump. He says I should just run it for a tank or two and get some of the gunk cleaned out of it first. It won't hurt anything and it would be good for it. Besides, putting new or rebuilt injectors in and then having them clog shortly after would just plain suck.

I am hopefully putting plates on it tomorrow and then stopping to get some cleaner. I am going to drive it over the weekend and put a few miles on it and see what happens.

Tom: I don't have any plans for the plow pump but probably won't toss it. I will take some pics over the weekend before I remove it and see if you or anyone else wants it.

[Jim-ME]

Where might you be sourcing these injectors? RN says they only go back to engine suffix J and mine is suffix F.
I got them in the UK but mine are for a 2.5 NAD.
Jim

[antichrist]

How long did it sit since it was last driven. If the fuel wasn't treated before being parked, it likely has a lot of bacteria in it if it sat for very long. If you haven't, I'd drain the tank, change the filter (check the surface of it for slime, and indicator of a bad "infection") and even flush the fuel lines if it sat a long time. Then add some diesel bio-cide.

[roverjohn]

A little bit of an update: I have cleaned it up a lot and removed all of the previous owner add ons including the plow parts. If anybody wants any of it, it is fair game.

Antichrist: you had expressed interest in it so let me know if you want it. You have first right of refusal.

I have put maybe 100 +/- miles on it so far. It's hard to say as the speedometer works but the odometer does not turn over. The smoke goes away after about a mile or so of driving. I have drained the tank and added a full tank of fresh diesel and the John Deere heavy duty fuel treatment additive. The fuel coming out of the tank looked pretty good and only a little bit of scaly rust came out. I need to drive it some more as even the JD instructions say it can take awhile to work. It really feels like things are loosening up and it feels like it is getting better every time I drive it. However, some things are popping up. I ended up having to put 4 new used tires on it as I had a flat driving it to work the other day. Luckily I work less than a mile away and it was only at 15 mph when it happened. One of the tires just shredded itself due to dry rot. I knew it was coming and I am surprised that they held up as long as they did. Fortunately, I had a set of 235/75R15's on some old Land Cruiser wheels that I did not have any plans for. They will be fine for awhile until I get my 16" wheels and 235/85R16 tires later.

I am also seeing a little seepage out of the top of the radiator and one of the heater hoses. I definitely need to replace all of the hoses and while I am at it, I might as well pull the radiator and have it gone through. And.... the fan seems to have a little bit of side play in it so a new water pump is probably in order too. Might as well since I will have the radiator out. I also need to replace the motor mounts and the driver's door handle. And.... my front left spring is rubbing on the bottom of the frame at the shackle end. Not sure what to think about that one. Will it ever stop?!!!

Anyways, I am having some fun with this one and am really enjoying the 2.25L diesel. Here in my little mountain town, I don't need to go fast and it's fine to bomb around in. Of course, I need to get this smoke issue cleared up as I don't think the neighbors like it all that much. Of course, I have not seen any mosquitoes lately so I am sure they will thank me later.

[SafeAirOne]

Congratulations...I think.

Is the smoke just some wispy stuff that dissipates quickly or something that is pretty persistent?

As for the spring rub, I suspect you're looking at a sagging/flattened spring (or four).

Good luck and have fun!

[roverjohn]

Congratulations...I think.

Is the smoke just some wispy stuff that dissipates quickly or something that is pretty persistent?

As for the spring rub, I suspect you're looking at a sagging/flattened spring (or four).

Good luck and have fun!

The smoke was REALLY bad; like clear out the neighborhood bad. You could barely see through it. Now it seems to be getting better. It's still noticeable but it seems to go away after a little while; within a mile or two at most.

I am thinking my springs and shocks are shot. I may look into some new springs (parobolics most likely) here in the future.

[o2batsea]

I think you have a case of while-I'm-at-it-itis.

[SalemRover]

I was just talking to my diesel shop about my pump yesterday and they were having difficulty calibrating and testing the unit at idle. This is for a 2.5 Lucas CAV pump, but I would imagine that it applies to the 2.25 as well. The IP has a startup mode that pumps in alot of fuel until it hits a certain rpm and then kicks back to run mode if you will. It is possible that a sticking mechanism in the IP is causing this startup mode to jam for a bit and then clear. There can be other causes as well, but all of them imply incomplete combustion of the fuel. I would keep an eye on the oil level in crank. If you are consuming engine oil then that could refine where to look for combustion issues. Best of luck! I look forward to your post about frame bushings being frozen solid...

Jason

[StX_Rovers]

Nice Rover,

A couple of thoughts. The kill switch cable can be replaced with a standard mechanical choke cable if it fails. Functional but not original. While it is hooked up, figure out which lever it pulls so if it breaks you know how to turn it off without resorting to putting it in 4th gear and letting the clutch out. Speaking of kill cable. The shutdown sequence is pull kill cable, then turn off key. More of an issue if the truck has been converted to an alternator as turning off the key with the engine running can damage the diodes in the alternator.

There is actually a 4th position on the key, it is off, run, glow, start. Hold it in the glow position for 15-30 seconds on cool mornings. One of the lights on your dash is the glow plug indicator light. It will start out dim and then glow brighter. When it does not glow any brighter, then crank her over. I believe the blue light is the low fuel light.

The mention of the start circuit is correct for the 2.25 pump. It is in there and can not be tested until the pump is rebuilt. If the truck is running it works at least partially. Not sure about the sticking open, just don't know. I have a mechanic I know who is familiar with these pumps and he told me about the start circuit in the context of rebuilding a pump of unknown condition, versus a running pump and causing smoking so it could very well be possible.

Your injectors are a style different from the later ones. Not sure if you can get them for the prices mentioned. Rebuilding costs should be the same though. The early style are held in with a lump of steel over the top and long studs into the head. The later style ones have two ears that a much shorter stud goes through. If the cleaner does not work my inclination would be to rebuild the ones I have, and at the same time have the pump redone. Then they can be tested together. Might be a little more up front but the results will likely be better.

Since the engine has glow plugs, you can just remove them and do a compression test. Much less work than pulling the injectors and you could get the information right away, which will help with planning the project. Pay attention to the way the glow plugs are wired when you take them out.

They are a nice engine. Our 109 has one and it can do 70 downhill with an overdrive but that is it. That was when we lived up in Babylon where there are highways. More importantly it can pull a 26 foot sailboat on her trailer up a one lane steep dirt road in the Virgin Islands.

Oh, the spring rubbing. Deteriorated bushings in the spring and the frame. Make sure you have a full bottle of rum for anesthetic and morale purposes after/during removal of the stuck bushings. The frame bushing in the front is a different size from the rest. It is longer, same diameter. The spring and rear frame bushings are all the same part. I have been thinking of switching to polyurethane bushings just for the ease of changing and likely longer life but that will wait until we use up the stock of bushings we received from a guy that was clearing out all his Rover bits. Do not forget the anti-seize on the outside of the bushing and the shackle bolts when reassembling.

Good luck and have fun with it, looks like a nice Rover.

[o2batsea]

I don't think the 2A key switch has 4 positions. Mine doesn't anyway. It's off, on, start. The glow plugs are just always on. On cold days you switch to on, wait a half a minute, then start. You must have the most powerful 2.25 Diesel on earth if it can tow a boat up a hill. Mine woulda just sat down and given me one of those looks.
I know I have a set of 4 injectors in my spares from the old lump.

[StX_Rovers]

I don't think the 2A key switch has 4 positions. Mine doesn't anyway. It's off, on, start. The glow plugs are just always on. On cold days you switch to on, wait a half a minute, then start. You must have the most powerful 2.25 Diesel on earth if it can tow a boat up a hill. Mine would a just sat down and given me one of those looks.
I know I have a set of 4 injectors in my spares from the old lump.

If your glow plugs are always on that will shorten the life of them. Plus they draw a lot of current. Someone might have changed the switch on your car. On our switch the glow setting is spring loaded like the start position, when you let it go it moves back to the run position on its own. It certainly seems to be original. Our diesel is a 67 and is pretty original. Even our friend's 1980 Ser 3 has a separate glow position. Not trying to be pedantic, just trying to save you some potential trouble down the line.

As far as the most powerful 2.25 diesel, the red lever is your friend when pulling a boat up our hill.:) When doing this I am glad it has a Salisbury now. I have this perfect vision in my mind of your Rover giving you "one of those looks".

[StX_Rovers]

A little bit of an update:

I have put maybe 100 +/- miles on it so far. It's hard to say as the speedometer works but the odometer does not turn over.

For instrument rebuilding of Smiths/Jaeger instruments go to Nisonger Instruments at Nisonger.com They are supposed to be the company to rebuild these instruments. A friend of mine who has a British sports car restoration shop swears by them. We will be sending the speedo from my wife's 67 88 to them at some point. The needle has fallen off and the odometer stopped working (I am pretty sure the cable is intact). Other than that it works fine.

[Kooolwaters]

I just bought my 1969 series 2a diesel and it smokes like a sift it seems to be over fueling loads of raw dulls and at mid throttle seems to be loading up and missing full throttle seems fine and idle to mid seems fine but my question is do you have a number for injectors and is their a upgraded kit for glow plugs glow plugs are not working at all


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[Kooolwaters]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/f0efe8ea72276585d0e6078c159f80f2.jpg here is pic


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[Kooolwaters]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/648b489af95ab3cce7d64cae0016b9f6.jpg


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[o2batsea]

I don't think the 2A key switch has 4 positions. Mine doesn't anyway. It's off, on, start. The glow plugs are just always on. On cold days you switch to on, wait a half a minute, then start. You must have the most powerful 2.25 Diesel on earth if it can tow a boat up a hill. Mine woulda just sat down and given me one of those looks.
I know I have a set of 4 injectors in my spares from the old lump.
Back when I wrote that it was without the switch in my vicinity and I was writing from (faulty) memory. Yes indeed there are 4 positions on the switch. However now that the Tdi is in there the wiring is just a little different. I had to install a push button starter switch simply because I couldn't think of any other way at the time. Since the Tdi has to have switched 12V at the solenoid to open the fuel valve, the starter switch had to bypass the old one which kills power to everything but the starter solenoid when in START.
The push switch is now in the hole in the lower dash where the old pull stop cable was.

[o2batsea]

I just bought my 1969 series 2a diesel and it smokes like a sift it seems to be over fueling loads of raw dulls and at mid throttle seems to be loading up and missing full throttle seems fine and idle to mid seems fine but my question is do you have a number for injectors and is their a upgraded kit for glow plugs glow plugs are not working at all


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You should start a new thread for this problem. What color is the smoke? Grey? Bluish? White? Black? No "upgrade" for the glow plugs.

[Kooolwaters]

It get black and you can see it dump at times cause it gets really big puffs and sounds like it's misfiring .at idle it runs perfect and it runs descend at higher rpm but still has a burst of black smoke from time to time at hi rpm

[SafeAirOne]

It's been my experience that at speed, black smoke means my induction (intake) air is being choked off for whatever reason.

I've had it happen when the non-compensated injector pump is operating at high altitudes, causing black smoke that increases with elevation and where the power loss is so gradual that it's unnoticeable and I've also had it happen where the onset of the black smoke is sudden and accompanied by a noticeable loss of power, indicating an obstruction in the engine air induction system.