Crank Pulley Bolt and Seal

[rbbailey]

OK, so I tried to do this seal myself. Not much info on it in the Green Bible, etc... I've heard of the mud shield modification. But I have no way of being able to do that.

So, I have the seal, what else do I need?

Where can I get instructions for this?

And finally, since I figured taking the bolt off was not a super technical issue that I could do and then come back and figure out how to complete the job later, I went out and bought a very large wrench, put a block of wood in the crank case to hold it still, then pulled and pulled and hammered and hammered till.... I broke the stupid bolt off... now what?

Help.

[meatblanket]

Wow. That must've taken a hell of a lot of torque to do that.

Sorry but you're screwed. The crankshaft will have to come out.

[rbbailey]

I don't even lift.

Will the engine have to be removed to do this?

[NC_Mule]

Just changed my front main seal and preformed the mud shield mod last week. No reason not to do the mud shield mod if your going to change the seal. That being said breaking that bolt is a serious situation. Did it make a clean break at the crank or is some of it sticking out?

Info on ft seal.
http://forums.roversnorth.com/showthread.php?14378-Front-main-seal-replacement&referrerid=12318

[meatblanket]

I don't even lift.

Will the engine have to be removed to do this?

Yes. But post a pic of what you've got now, maybe someone will come up with a creative way to remove the broken bolt from the crankshaft nose. But with something that large and that tight I doubt you'll have much luck with that.

[rbbailey]

I saw that thread earlier, thanks. That's how I knew about the mud cover mod. But I don't have the tools or knowledge to do that. And if I tried, as seen here, I would end up ruining the block.

Something I'm unclear on -- the steps. Can someone provide the steps to this project (aside from breaking the bolt). All I can see is that it is "easy" or "no problem". But I am not clear on what has to come off to get to the seal. Does the front engine cover have to come off? Seems like that is what I'm reading. But in other places, it doesn't sound like that.

[siii8873]

ouch, not good. Did you bend the locking tab out of the way before trying to remove the bolt. Was it a bolt or the starting dog, not that it matters. If ot were me I'd check the lock tab first. If that is clear drill and tap the center of the bolt for a left hand threaded bolt. Might work.

[rbbailey]

Well, considering that none of the info I read said anything about a locking tab, and since I didn't notice one, I have to assume I didn't bend it out of the way the normal way. Where is it anyway?

See if this link works to the photo of broken bolt: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8PQsXGlUpYyN1JUOU01d0stSFU/edit?usp=sharing

[JimCT]

that bolt looks fine, plenty of thread left




ouch, not good. Did you bend the locking tab out of the way before trying to remove the bolt. Was it a bolt or the starting dog, not that it matters. If ot were me I'd check the lock tab first. If that is clear drill and tap the center of the bolt for a left hand threaded bolt. Might work.

[rbbailey]

But what does that really have to do with it? I mean, the pulley is still on, can't change the seal, etc.... Buying a new bolt is the least of my worries.

[JimCT]

pull the pulley off the crank

[rbbailey]

Won't come. I think the threads are still part on pulley, part on whatever it anchors to. Is there some way to take the pulley off if it is not still threaded?

[NC_Mule]

Bolt doesn't look broken. Take a rubber mallet and hit the back of the pulley. Or take a brass drift and hit the back of the pulley at different angles and positions. As for the seal you still have to pull the water pump, radiator, generator. If you feel you're in over your head it would be best to stop now.

[SafeAirOne]

Ha! JimCT said it best:
pull the pulley off the crank

You didn't break the stupid bolt off--you broke it loose.

That bolt's not broken at all and the pulley is not threaded onto anything either. You've simply removed the bolt. Period. Now you must slide the pulley off the crankshaft. It may be reluctant, but it just slides off. You can't spin the pulley on the crankshaft because it's keyed to the crankshaft, but it will slide STRAIGHT off.

If it were me, I'd thread that bolt halfway back in, put a gear puller on the backside of the pulley and slowly crank it out against the head of the bolt, being careful not to break the pulley casting. Once it starts moving, it'll come the rest of the way off. Obviously, once the pulley bottoms out against the bolt head, stop cranking on the puller.

BTW, gear puller:

http://www.zukiworld.com/month_070102/images/rockcrawler_dl/step7.jpg

I'd recommend hitting the factory Workshop manual for the SIII--It's downloadable from several places on the internet--and it details this procedure quite nicely (as do the pre-SIII books, I'm sure) plus the SIII book tells how to accomplish the front seal mud shield modification as mentioned earlier in this thread.

What engine is that? Probably a 2.25, judging by the non-aluminum timing case? Your bolt looks like an ETC7934 bolt, which I believe is metric (2.5 liter engines and probably later 2.25 engines), and if it is, there usually isn't a locking tab of any kind, so make sure you use plenty of red threadlocker on it when you tighten it down, and tighten it down HARD when you reinstall it (trust me on this one).

Also, if it is a 2.5 engine, don't worry about that mud shield modification--It doesn't use that setup. Later 2.25 may have been factory modified. Oh, and if it's a 2.5 engine, download one of the Workshop Manuals for the 90/110 that covers this engine.

ETC7934:

http://www.lrseries.com/resources/user/8f33950edde76217de9c79ab84c389b73a255b0e/ETC7934-CRANKSHAFT-PULLEY-BOLT.jpg

Good luck.

[rbbailey]

Hummmm...

I think it is broken. The end looks just like a sheared axle, and the threads don't come to a nice end, they look ripped.

HOWEVER! I did finally get the pulley off, and I'm now able to visualize how this all goes together (not knowing how the parts fit to one another makes it hard to figure out what to do next, you know?) And I think the bolt, broken or not, has enough thread on it to reuse.

So, I'm going to proceed as normal.

Drill out the rivets now. I assume they will fall inside and out through the oil pan?
Is the seal held in by the mud shield, or is there another piece I don't know about?
What else do I need to know?

Thanks for the help!

[SafeAirOne]

Huh. That's weird--It must look different in person:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7438/9084849699_942ab4956a_z.jpg

If it were me, I'd take the extra time and effort to remove the rivets in a manner that won't leave any metal parts adrift anywhere in the engine.

[rbbailey]

The end looks just like a twisted off bolt to me, but whatever. Oh, and the inside is the mirror image of what you see on the end of the bolt.

I hope you're right!

[SafeAirOne]

Well, I think the concern then is that the portion you have will bottom out on the part left inside the crankshaft and not fully tighten down against the pulley flange when you go to reinstall the bolt. You might order a new bolt to compare or have someone measure a new example to see how much is left in the crankshaft. At least that way, you'll know exactly what you're dealing with.

[NC_Mule]

Hummmm...

I think it is broken. The end looks just like a sheared axle, and the threads don't come to a nice end, they look ripped.

HOWEVER! I did finally get the pulley off, and I'm now able to visualize how this all goes together (not knowing how the parts fit to one another makes it hard to figure out what to do next, you know?) And I think the bolt, broken or not, has enough thread on it to reuse.

So, I'm going to proceed as normal.

Drill out the rivets now. I assume they will fall inside and out through the oil pan?
Is the seal held in by the mud shield, or is there another piece I don't know about?
What else do I need to know?

Thanks for the help!

Pulling the front cover off is not that hard. I would take the extra time and pull the cover, drill the rivits out on the work bench. Saving a few hours labor is not worth having a rivet end up cycling through the engine till it causes damage.

[JimCT]

All you are looking at is the tit left when they parted off the bolt. Nothing is broken





Well, I think the concern then is that the portion you have will bottom out on the part left inside the crankshaft and not fully tighten down against the pulley flange when you go to reinstall the bolt. You might order a new bolt to compare or have someone measure a new example to see how much is left in the crankshaft. At least that way, you'll know exactly what you're dealing with.

[SafeAirOne]

All you are looking at is the tit left when they parted off the bolt. Nothing is broken

I think so too, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Plus, what's it going to hurt to get a new bolt and compare them?

Probably be easier to just compare the depth of the hole to the length of the bolt, though.

[westcoastkevin]

I think it is not broken either.
There is a lock tab washer on my S1.
If the OP is really afraid about it bottoming out, put a washer on it or grind 0.050" off the end of the bolt.
The mud shield mod might be a bit much here. Put a seal in, bolt it up and drive it.

[rbbailey]

I'm moving ahead with the seal swap, broken or no. I hope you are all correct, so I'm acting like you are!

If my pulley flies off and explodes through my bonnet 20 miles down the road, I'll know who to come yelling at. ;)

If my oil pan is already removed, is it easy enough to retrieve the rivet bits, or does the front cover really need to come off as well?

[Jim-ME]

When i did mine we drilled from the front of the engine in and caught them with a large magnet. This was done on a lift so it was fairly easy to catch them. I did not have to take the front cover off.
Jim

[Revtor]

even if the bolt is broken (looks like, as Jim said, the result of the parting cut on a lathe) there is more than enough thread left to keep that sucker on..

~Steve

[rbbailey]

So I have the dust cover off, but now I'm confused about the seal itself. It does not look like the replacement I have in hand, and I can't tell if I have to push it in or out to get it off of the vehicle.

The one on the vehicle has a rubber lip, but the edge is metal. The one I have in hand is all rubber and is not the same shape, but it is the same size.

It certainly is not just held in there by the dust cover, it appears to be mounted from the inside of the engine cover.

[SafeAirOne]

Just follow the instructions in the book. You can't go wrong.

[rbbailey]

All it says is drive it out. I'm asking about technique.

[SafeAirOne]

1) Remove exposed rivet head by either drilling or chiseling.
2) Get a small drift (punch) and tap the body out using a hammer, the side of a big crescent wrench or a rock from the front yard.

[rbbailey]

OK... so I took the cover off and drilled out the rivets. I had to cut the old seal out. Cleaned everything up, got the surfaces all prepped for new gaskets, etc... Then I started working on the tapping of the holes to use M4 bolts. Fine. Went onto Youtube and watched a couple of videos on how to do it. Fine. Pretty easy.

Working the tap in, got a few threads in, backed it out, forward again. Tested the hole so far. Fine. Works with the new bolt.

Start working the tap to finish the first hole. Three seconds in and the tap shatters into four pieces -- one of them is lodged in the hole.

So pissed that I basically just walk away and start opening up the Rovers North batch of new brake lines. I pulled off all the old ones, bend up and fit the new ones, start threading them together and none of them fit. They all have defective threads or tapered ends and won't go into the current fittings on the truck.

Pissed. So I decide to take a drive and pick up the brake fluid that is needed to complete the job once I get the brake lines figured out. Turns out NAPA does not sell fluid that works with the old style natural rubber seals anymore.

All of this just today.

[SafeAirOne]

I personally wouldn't bother tapping the holes--Just follow the book and use self-tapping screws. That mud shield isn't by any means a critical part that requires extra attachment--It's just tagged onto the front of the timing cover. If it were me, I'd just seal up the hole with the broken tap, use self-tappers on the rest and extract the tap next time you're in there using a tap extractor ( http://www.use-enco.com/1/3/tap-extractors ).

There seems to be a myriad of different brake line configurations that changed over the years on series rovers. Check the first part of the SIII Workshop Manual for brake line compatibility info.

Finally, I wonder if your brake parts are original equipment from when your Rover rolled off the assembly line. There can't be too many left out there with natural rubber seals. I seriously doubt that any replacement seals have been made from natural rubber for some decades, though I can't say that there aren't some out there SOMEWHERE.

If you order brake fluid from RN nowadays, they just send you a bottle of DOT 4 fluid.

[rbbailey]

Yeah, you are confirming what I'm thinking now about the cover. Grrrrrrr....

The brake lines... I don't know other than the lines to the body itself were very old, if not original 1965! The brake system was just replaced with a dual assist system that had no trouble tapping right into the old brake lines. One of the five lines now fits just fine after rebending to reach properly. So I'm not sure why I would get the other lines that seem to all work on one end, but the male end of the other end is just a tiny bit too small so they tread on but are loose all the way in, and you cannot tighten them -- ?? It's as if the end fitting/threads are actually defective.

So I'm trying a rebuild of one of the lines with a flare kit to see if I can make it work.

I'm curious about the brake fluid thing and the seals. But I'm sure I can find the old style girling type someplace in town. Just means another half day of not actually working on the vehicle.

[SafeAirOne]

My local PepBoys USED to stock the Castrol LMA up till about 6 months ago. Perhaps Castrol Stopped making it?

[rbbailey]

OK, I'm reviving this thread because I have a new engine that I'm trying to get the starter dog off of, and it isn't working.

It is in the truck, in gear, brake on, wheels chocked, WD40, heat from a torch, 18" wrench, big hammer, trying to move it CCW.... what am I missing? Been working at it off and on for a day now, starting to strip the nut on one side.