External Roll Cage Height - Tropical vs. Canvas Top

[S11A]

I am looking to get an external roll cage fabbed by a local shop for my 109 3-door similar to the Safety Devices L190 cage in the pictures below. I like the idea of having an external cage to allow a roof rack with a soft top at some point in the future, and so am kind of set on the external cage as opposed to an internal one. (Plus I could still put the pickup top back on and have the cage plus a roof rack even though I am not likely to run around in that config.) Otherwise I would be looking at an internal one which has advantages such as being able to have the shop add shoulder seat belt mounts instead of having to come up with other ways to do that especially with the soft top.

The question is, which top should I put on when it goes to the offroad shop? Which one, canvas vs. tropical, is taller? If I fit the taller one while the cage is made, then the cage should then give enough room for the other top. (It is indeed a tropical top.)

Then there is the question of how much extra space should I have the shop build in to give me a bit of room for changing tops? Taking off the tropical top would seem to require less space - just unbolt the roof and it should slide out the back w/o any extra height being required, and the side panels should come out easily after that. Fitting the canvas top would seem to need a bit more space between the cage above and the hoop set below. But how much? Would an extra 2" of clearance do it? Less? More? Trying to visualize the install of the canvas top (I am working with Les to buy one) and looking at the videos everyone posted in that the top install thread, I am guessing that a determined person could get the canvas to slide over the hoops without a whole lot of clearance. I don't intend on switching tops very often, maybe once or twice a year, so would be willing to trade off a little extra hassle in favor of a closer fit so it doesn't get too tall.

Any recommendations on things to watch out for with a soft top such as clearance to the cage bar that goes at the top of the wind screen, i.e.- to clear the front canvas fasteners? I am not sure if the windscreen could be folded down with that bar where it is in this SD design, but that would be another consideration. I don't see doing that really (without wearing goggles :) but as long as I am thinking this through might as well be thorough...

Or any thoughts on the B pillar of the cage, to clear the canvas attachment bits there in order to make it easier to roll up the canvas side panels? Or move the horizontal bar upwards an inch or two higher above the bed cappings to make it easier to roll up the side canvas panels?

While the Safety Devices bolt-in cage below could have various bars unbolted to make top swapping easier, I am hoping thinking these sorts of things through now can make that unnecessary or at least only necessary for a full top swap out (i.e.- not needed for rolling up the canvas sides).

http://www.safetydevices.com/i/rollcages/6601.1340890988.jpg

http://www.safetydevices.com/i/rollcages/6608.1317807863.jpg

http://www.safetydevices.com/i/rollcages/6602.1340890910.jpg

[NC_Mule]

Sweet project. Sorry I can't offer any dimensions for you, I just took my hard top off and I'm about to pull the trigger on a canvas truck cab so right now I'm running with out any top. That being said when I first got my Series I had dreams of a nice roof rack but once I started measuring I realized my drive in basement garage door doesn't give me the clearance for a nice roof rack.
So one more detail to iron out, make sure it will fit in your garage/work shop with the external cage and roof rack.
Can't wait to see the final product.
pb

[S11A]

Thanks, great suggestion. I am optimistic that it will fit with a cage but am pretty sure it wouldn't with a rack on top of the cage.

[I Leak Oil]

I believe the tropical top is taller than the canvas.

[SalemRover]

It seems it would be easier to upgrade your hoopset to rollcage strength and run a regular soft top. When you decide to add the roofrack it wouldnt be hard to add 4 points to mount a roof rack that works with the rollcage/hoopset. I am trying to picture a full galvy hoopset with a soft top and then an external rollcage on top of it. Rolling up the sides wouldnt be hard. Taking the top off would have minor impairments, but threading the soft top back through the two hoopsets would be a pita.

[Cutter]

That top defender is badass!

[SafeAirOne]

If you realized how much you must lift a hardtop to get the mounts to clear the tub capping while you maneuver it backwards without going insane, you probably wouldn't consider having an external cage that can facilitate easy hard top removal. It would have to be unnaturally higher than a tropical top in the first place, and would simply soar above the follow-on canvas top.

Just my view of your goal from an aesthetic perspective.

I personally think "internal" would be the way to go to meet your other objectives.

[S11A]

Thanks Mark, that is great advice. I was thinking I would take the hard top off in pieces with the roof panel first then the sides. so the roof panel would slide out the back on top of the side panels. But I took the roof and sides apart a long time ago and that was with those already off the truck and I wasn't even thinking about how much manouvering room was required when doing so.

One of the reasons for taking it off in pieces (with the cage) is that I built a ceiling lift / hoist in the garage out of angle iron using a Harbor Freight cheap winch but the hard top does not clear the garage opener in the middle of the bay so the only way I can put the top on it and raise it up to a reasonable height is with the top essentially flat packed. the bottom of the lift frame is then at about 6' 2" when raised with the top on it; not ideal but it is better than the top taking up an entire garage bay. so the top would need to be disassembled anyway.

This is not ideal but I am not planning on swapping tops all that often. We live in the Southeast so the canvas top would work all year round and might be the default. I have had convertibles in the past but am not sure how the Land-Rover would be with the canvas top; I haven't had one on it yet.

I like the idea of the internal cage better to be honest except that it wouldn't allow the roof rack or pickup cab. I don't see myself ever going to the pickup config so maybe I need to quit thinking about that. If the derned Sankeys weren't so expensive...

[SalemRover]

A Sankey, bantam or m416 trailer would cost less than a custom modular roll cage on par with what Safety devices makes. Its alot more labor to add points that are bolted together versus welding it as a one piece fab job. The soft top is alot cooler than the hardtop by a large margin. If you look at soft top photo's of NAS D-90's you can see that they do incorporate an external flange coming from the corner of the doors and moving along that edge to the windscreen.

8650

It would not be a far stretch to add a similar point to the rear and accommodate these 4 points for a roof rack over the rear bed. I do know someone who is working on doing that. I will see if I can pry a snapshot if you are interested.

[luckyjoe]

I'd follow SalemRover's lead, and consider an internal cage that replaces the hoop set. As long as you avoid the cappings, you could design it to accept the hardtop without issues.

[S11A]

OK, I am back after a bit of a delay. Had to go to Brazil for a couple of weeks on business, had a family surgery / health scare (OK now), etc.

An update on this - I am making better progress than I expected on the hard top and so am going to scratch the soft top for now. So I will likely just do the full external cage as close to the safari top as possible, since the consensus seemed to be that that top would be taller than the soft one, so the cage should work with either.

Since at some point the truck will hopefully be used for longer trips, the roof rack will be mounted to the top of the cage. The trailer idea is a good one but it is going to double the cost if I am going to do a cage anyway. A roof rack would be much cheaper, plus I could have an awning off the external cage. Pic of belt and suspenders on a Jeep:

http://expeditionportal.com/mscott/Users/mattscott/october/sema/semaday1/dayonesema22.jpg

I found this pic which gives an idea of the kind of mounts that could be attached to the capping and come out underneath the canvas (these come straight out; they could be angled down and curved to come out under it):

http://cdn2.overlandsphere.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/PB170023-flickr.jpg

[S11A]

For my own reference as much as anything, here is an example of one that is kind of a hybrid approach to putting a roof rack on top of a soft top. The hoops may be beefier than the standard ones and so maybe would work better for the roof rack, but since they are not tied to the frame it probably wouldn't help all that much in the event of a roll over. (which didn't seem to be the owner's objective so I am not criticizing.)

Another concern is that puncturing the canvas top to get the bolts through would likely result in leaks in the future or weak spots from which tears would develop...

http://www.landroveraddict.com/forums/thread.cfm?threadID=29069

http://www.mark-90.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alf/cage.jpg

http://www.mark-90.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alf/cagefront.jpg

http://www.mark-90.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alf/cagerear.jpg

http://www.mark-90.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alf/cageside.jpg

http://www.mark-90.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alf/cageinside.jpg

[S11A]

One more of that truck with the sides down:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/mark90/sevensisters/alfrocks1.jpg

That is nice work.

[S11A]

Also for reference, this site has pics of the same cage on both soft and hard tops. It appears that it might not fit with a safari top with the sunsheet as it is awfully close to the hard top that doesn't have one on it.

http://www.whitbread-offroad.co.uk/roll_cage_land_rover_90_hard_top_full_external.php

http://www.whitbread-offroad.co.uk/roll_cages/90_external_6.jpg

http://www.whitbread-offroad.co.uk/roll_cages/90_external_7.jpg

[NC_Mule]

Enjoying this brain storming thread. Based on what you want to build you are going to have some technical bends, design work and a good welder. So since you are going to need all that anyway what about doing a "surface" mount roof rack like you want but rather then go down to the frame on all 6 points like the Safety Devices diagram (page 2) just go to the frame on the main hoop behind your head. In the event of a bad roll over the 4 points on the cage not attached to the frame would be trashed but the hoop behind your head would hold and keep the truck from crushing you. When I mean "surface mount" I mean run the tubes down the side just like the safety devices cage shows. Except for the two for the hoop behind your head are finished to the frame. But then again if you made it that far why not just run internal tubes down to the frame on the other 4 points and make a copy of the safety devices cage except a little taller so you can do your top swap. After reading this I'm rambling but I'll post it since it's typed.
One more thing, I agree bolting through the canvas top would cause ripping down the road.
pb

[S11A]

Thanks PB, appreciate the thoughts.

[REDrum]

Any updates on progress? I am also considering something similar on my SIIA for carrying surf boards and kayaks.