To restore or purchase already restored?

[rstl99]

Hi all,
I'm looking to buy a Series II(A) Land Rover, and am wondering about the relative merits of [1] buying a Series LR that needs restoration, versus [2] buying one where someone else has already done the restoration.

In looking at various LR's for sale (restored or not) it's not easy to determine which constitutes the better "value" in the end. And I figure that for some people, the restoration process is actually more rewarding than actually owning and driving the Series Land Rover, so I can imagine that once restored, many people would try to sell it and buy another restoration candidate.

Some of the pros and cons I see are the following. Would anyone else have some additional insights that may help someone like myself in the decision to buy one already restored, or as a restoration project.

Thanks!

[1] buy vehicle needing restoration
pros:
- can see all the flaws when you inspect the truck, not hidden by shoddy body work or paint
- can be purchased at a cheaper initial price of course
- "enjoy" the process of restoration (including the *&%^$ knuckles and mistakes along the way...) and satisfaction along the journey
- sometimes "project" vehicles come with a load of spare parts
- provides an opportunity to learn a lot about automobile mechanics and using tools
cons:
- need sufficient garage space to disassemble car and slowly restore components
- in the long run, the costs of restoration probably exceed cost of buying a vehicle already restored (especially if including time needed to do the work, which could have been spent doing other things - unless of course LR restoration is one's passion and hobby)
- risk or running out of time or gumption to complete the project, resulting in tying up garage or shed space, or eventually selling an unfinished project at a loss
- some parts may be difficult to find and delay the restoration

[2] buy vehicle already restored
pros:
- own a nicer-looking and performing vehicle from the onset (can enjoy using it right away)
- don't need garage or shed space to store the vehicle during the long restoration process
- don't have to chase down used or new parts needed to complete the work
- usually, will prove cheaper in the long run to buy one already restored, than restoring it yourself
- easier and faster to sell if your needs change or you need the money for something else
cons:
- more costly to purchase initially, in the short run
- some of the shortcuts used by the restorer may not be readily evident (shoddy work, incorrect parts, hidden rust, etc.)
- do not benefit from the satisfaction that comes with the restoration "journey"

[deezgunz]

My first Series purchase was a IIA that was not running, wire harness crumbling, etc. It needed a complete off the frame restoration. That was way too much to tackle and I ended up selling it. My second and third purchases were running Rovers (rolling wrecks) that I drive and restore bit by bit. This way I can enjoy them and get more mechanical knowledge and experience. I found this to be manageable rather than climbing a mountain of a project. BTW I didn't buy one until I moved to a house with a garage.

Either way you will need somewhat deep pockets and deep patience to get and keep them on the road.

[rstl99]

My first Series purchase was a IIA that was not running, wire harness crumbling, etc. It needed a complete off the frame restoration. That was way too much to tackle and I ended up selling it. My second and third purchases were running Rovers (rolling wrecks) that I drive and restore bit by bit. This way I can enjoy them and get more mechanical knowledge and experience. I found this to be manageable rather than climbing a mountain of a project. BTW I didn't buy one until I moved to a house with a garage.

Either way you will need somewhat deep pockets and deep patience to get and keep them on the road.

I agree with you about buying a non-running vehicle. I did the same 15 years ago, and sold it 2-3 years later around the 75-80% completion level. Too many other things going on in my life (kids, job, house, etc.). Now I'm recently retired, have a house with a garage, and the luxury of time (and a bit of hard-earned mechanical knowledge gained over the years - though no welding knowledge, so I am looking for a runner with decent frame and bulkhead as a minimum).

I think you are right about the deep patience. About deep pockets, well, one reason I am looking at a Series II or IIA (rather than a Series I for ex) is that parts seem to be generally available, if needed. And the purchase price is usually much lower than a similar quality Series I or Defender. Plus to me the Series II(A) are the quintessential Land-Rover.

I am leaning to the [1] buy vehicle needing restoration option, but as you suggest, will make sure that I buy a running LR this time (hopefully a bit better than a wreck). But I find that it's easier to find non-running wrecks and fully restored specimens, than ones in between which are reasonable shape and allow a gradual restoration while continuing to use it.

Thanks.

[SafeAirOne]

You'll spend about the same in the end. Just a matter of figuring out if you're in it for the journey or for the destination.

You've got the pros and cons pretty well nailed down. Just gotta figure out what YOU want.

[rstl99]

You'll spend about the same in the end. Just a matter of figuring out if you're in it for the journey or for the destination.

You've got the pros and cons pretty well nailed down. Just gotta figure out what YOU want.

Thanks, good to know I've covered off both scenarios reasonably well. As you say, journey or destination. Leaning toward journey, but it would be nice to find something that I can use and slowly fix up and refurbish (maybe not fully restore) as I go along, according to priorities.

p.s. I had a 2.5na in the 110 I owned some years ago, good tough little engine, hope you like it in your SIII.

[Contractor]

Why not get something "in between"?

Don't buy a total project that you will most likely get discouraged on at some point and not be able to drive it for 2 years. And don't buy a $14K truck that somebody has sorted out and needs nothing but some maintenance and a driver.

Buy the $6K - $8K truck that drives well and you can enjoy M-F and fix up components on the weekends when time permits. You wont feel obligated to spend every waking moment in the shop trying to get it on the road because your dying to drive it.

[I Leak Oil]

Financially speaking, you're almost always better off buying a truck that is done. Atleast one that is done with decent level of quality.

[SafeAirOne]

Financially speaking, you're almost always better off buying a truck that is done.

That's because of the Series Land Rover Seller's Theorem, which states that you'll NEVER recover the money you've invested in a series rover over the years when you sell it.

You could always take advantage of this theorem by purchasing a restored rover, thereby transferring the financial loss you'd experience (by fixing a rover up), to the seller of an already-restored one.

Of course, there's always the "Lanny Clark" caveat...

[LR Max]

Buy a restored truck.

You pay for the restoration, and get a free truck.

Pay the same amount of money now. Have something you can enjoy now.

[I Leak Oil]

Of course, there's always the "Lanny Clark" caveat...

That's more the "trophy wife" syndrome if you ask me, which you didn't but I'll give my opinion anyway. Since I can't even financially fathom buying one of those I'll let those who can determine their "value".


Oh...and good use of the term "theorem" and "caveat"....bonus points are awarded!

[TeriAnn]

Everything depends upon you. What are your skills, family situation, reliable spare time, income in excess of your basic needs? And most of all what kinds of activities make you happy?

For instance swapping a frame can take a long weekend or over a decade depending upon your skills, finances and the condition of the rest of your vehicle. If you buy a pile of worn out parts and have no emotional relationship with that particular vehicle you will likely never get it back into decent shape unless restoring a vehicle is your passion. A lot of vehicles taken apart for restoration end up being replacement parts for other people's vehicles.

If you are new to Land Rovers or if you do not have a lot of mechanical skills or reliable time and space get a good condition driver and drive it. If you are well experienced at wrenching and going out to the garage to do some tinkering on the car is your idea of a good way to spend a relaxing evening, get something to rebuild.

A rolling restoration, as others have suggested, is a way to use the vehicle and learn how to work on it as well. If you are a wrenching in-betweener a rolling restoration as a lot of advantages:

- you get to drive the vehicle and start developing a relationship with it
- You get to learn about the vehicle's mechanics as you drive it.
- if you are not a pro-wrencher you can incrementally increase your skills as you drive the vehicle
- You can rebuild the vehicle to fit your needs
- You learn what is right and what is wrong about the vehicle while it is still a driver.

But the answer to your question should only relate to who you are, what you like to do and your personal situation. All this is different for every person. For instance I do not like working on vehicles. I work on my truck because I want it in top condition and really can not afford to have others work on it. I can think of so many other things I would prefer to do. If I had money I would just drive it and have a full time mechanic on staff. I'm poor so I have learned to work on it. My truck has been a rolling restoration once I got the transfercase replaced. 35 years later it is still a rolling restoration as things that I have renewed wear out. If you use a vehicle heavily parts will wear out and if you own a vehicle long enough you get to re-restore things all over again.

[rstl99]

Why not get something "in between"?
Don't buy a total project that you will most likely get discouraged on at some point and not be able to drive it for 2 years. And don't buy a $14K truck that somebody has sorted out and needs nothing but some maintenance and a driver.

Buy the $6K - $8K truck that drives well and you can enjoy M-F and fix up components on the weekends when time permits. You wont feel obligated to spend every waking moment in the shop trying to get it on the road because your dying to drive it.

Good advice. Those $6-8K trucks seem not to be very common, but I suppose they DO come up now and then. I see mostly the wrecks and the heavily restored ones in my neck of the woods.

Buy a restored truck.
You pay for the restoration, and get a free truck.
Pay the same amount of money now. Have something you can enjoy now.
I like the way you put it, well said!!

[rstl99]

Hi Teriann, it's been a few years since I've had a chance to chat with you about Land Rovers but I'm just recently making a comeback to that part of the car universe. Always nice to read one of your thoughtful and insightful messages, thanks for taking the time to write it.
In my case, I retired 2 years ago so have luxury of time, a one-car garage in the city, and a country property with trails and gravel roads nearby where I would use the Series truck to explore, or just to help out around the property (hauling wood, rocks, etc.). Yes, I know, I could get a modern 4-wheeler and little trailer, like most of the people around me at the contry place, but it just wouldn't be the same, would it? :)

In part based on the comments and advice here, I am leaning toward buying a reasonably solid running LR, that I could restore incrementally as needs and priorities arise. Sure, if I had unlimited space, a heated garage, complete tools and know-how, a frame-up restoration would be challenging and probably satisfying, but I think I'd rather be able to use the truck while fixing it up and improving it now and then. I like wrenching and learned a few things from a 67 IIA I owned as a project 15 years ago, and a 110 I owned for a while 7-8 years ago, so a series 88 would feel like a home coming of sorts...

I may have found one that would fulfill my requirements, but the seller is not sure about selling, so I'll be patient. Sometimes good things are worth the wait, aren't they? Plus, winter is sadly just around the corner up here in the North-East, and with no heated garage I would be limited in what I could do to a newly acquired project LR truck anyway.

Best regards,
--Robert

[TeriAnn]

In part based on the comments and advice here, I am leaning toward buying a reasonably solid running LR, that I could restore incrementally as needs and priorities arise. Sure, if I had unlimited space, a heated garage, complete tools and know-how, a frame-up restoration would be challenging and probably satisfying, but I think I'd rather be able to use the truck while fixing it up and improving it now and then. I like wrenching and learned a few things from a 67 IIA I owned as a project 15 years ago, and a 110 I owned for a while 7-8 years ago, so a series 88 would feel like a home coming of sorts...

I think you are making a good decision. A solid driver that you can drive but that needs a few worn out odds & ends replaced. You can drive it while making it yours. And because it is not in top condition it likely won't be over priced.


Plus, winter is sadly just around the corner up here in the North-East, and with no heated garage I would be limited in what I could do to a newly acquired project LR truck anyway.

Here it is peaking its head around the corner a little bit early. We had our first snow fall last week here in Arizona. It wasn't much, just enough to let you know that summer is over. Winds were gusting to 45 MPH. Nights are now in the mid 20's and highs in the mid 50's. So I'm trying hard to get my Dormobile refreshing project done before the snows get serious. The newly refinished fiberglass lifting top and the top side of the new canvas got mounted during the snow and high winds. There is a lot more to be done before I can lower the roof and have it drivable again. I'm hoping it will be that far along before winter steps around the corner and I have to put the Triumph TR3 away. Until the top is assembled enough to lower the TR3 is my only transportation. Won't be all that long before I will need to shovel snow to get to the Land Rover and the highs will be in the 30's My garage is not heated either.


8828
LAST WINTER

[cedryck]

Terri I think you are right on the ball here. But my needs were different, I had an original 88, ex mod, in barely driveable condition. I chose to restore and do all of the work, this I enjoy. The challange of finding the correct parts, and learning about how to assemble, and properly assemble them. For me the adventure was the assembly phase, then of course driving. Cheers.

[Billy5]

I had to chuckle reading this. As most are aware I am first time series/ Land Rover owner. I had the same questions when looking. I got mine through the forums on here as a matter of fact. My preferences when lookingwere as stated A) what my use of it---to drive it and not worry about breathing on it, or winning a show. Not that theres anything wrong with that but its not me. I despise a car payment even though I just got one, which made me do what I am doing now ( get to that in a second). B) I wanted one that was clean, and not mucked with to badly. If its left stock as much as possible, I know what I got for future parts and repairs. If mucked with it can be a crapshoot on what is really there. I was very lucky, the PO gave me volumes of information in binders etc. Price ranges are all over. Mine is a driver, that was maintained but old. Everything started to leak from everyday use, and I am fine with that. Which leads to where I am now. In a "rebuild" mode. I think of it as a major cleaning and service. The front end is off, the engine is out. Bulkhead sanded and wire brushed and primed with rust encapsulator.Engine will be resealed, head rebuilt etc..why you ask if it was drivable? I am crazy. But I have plenty of tools, know paint work, and fairly mechanical. I also enjoy it. I consider it paying back to a vehicle that gave so much to others including me. My one eyed uncle and I towed it back from Indiana so there is my connection.
In summary:
A) Whats the use of it?
B) How much can you spend upfront?
c) As asked what skills do you have, and which is better off left to others?
d) Do you have stock in Speedi Dry?
Good luck!

[osajaj]

I agree with everyone....that's a very politician-esq answer. I searched high and low for a good solid running truck that needed a new caring owner. I hit that range 6-8k....actually lower, guy didn't see what he had. I drove it, bonded with it, fixed things that broke and needed replacing, all the while squirreling some $$ away. 4 years later, after driving and fixing it my wife had bought me a galvanized chassis (yep wife took the plunge for me). I was smart though and created memories for her, like proposing and faking a breakdown. Having said that, with the money saved and now a fresh chassis i thought long and hard and wanted to put another 50 years under her belt. I pulled the trigger and am having everything gone through, cleaned, painted, working right, etc. For me its about keeping my memories that i made in the truck and making new ones with my new family. I am not trying to get my money back, just my fun out of the truck. That's my two cents. So if you have the money and its another car, go for something done that you can drive. If you have just enough money get something running you can tinker and drive when you want. And if you are typing on this forum via your private plane, buy a Lanny Clark Rover.

[bugeye88]

Teriann,
Things are getting colder here also. Her's a pic from last year of my 69 Bug Eye 88 in Park City. I think this year will be even more snow!.
Cheers,
Rob

8830

[rstl99]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this issue.
Now considering a couple of late SII's I have seen in the last week or so, with my eyes. One is fairly well restored, the other is restorable. Given the sellers both want roughly the same price, the choice would be an easy one. Looking into details of the restored one...

[REDrum]

If you want a weekend truck you can drive around on and off-road right now, and tinker with in your spare time, buy somthing (r)overhauled already for $15 to 20K

If you want the experience and "wrench therapy" from finding the all the corrective repair and end of life parts, buy something used for $5 to 10K, and then spend another $10 to 15K, and 5 years of your life, sorting it all out.

[o2batsea]

Buy that sweet as hell limestone 110 from Clay in Leesburg. What a truck. Priced well, ready to rock. LHD, beautifiul. Roverites will drool and everyone else will do double takes.

[Jester065]

I feel as though I am the only one who doesn't understand the caveat.
That's more the "trophy wife" syndrome if you ask me, which you didn't but I'll give my opinion anyway. Since I can't even financially fathom buying one of those I'll let those who can determine their "value".


Oh...and good use of the term "theorem" and "caveat"....bonus points are awarded!

[Star27buck]

Despite what the sellers claim, there is a chassis replacement in everyone's future....less worse with a truck that has already had a galvanized replacement fitted. They rust from the inside unless cared for religiously. The bulkhead will eventually go.

If the choices you are reviewing have had galvanized chassis replacement, it's worth the extra cost.

[SafeAirOne]

I feel as though I am the only one who doesn't understand the caveat.

I didn't want to read through this whole thread again, but I think the gist was that Lanny Clark is probably one of the few people for whom a Series land rover actually IS an investment and who can recoup his costs and actually make a couple of bucks by restoring a rover. I'm confident that few businesses can say this and even fewer owners can say this.

[tolonian]

After reading the whole thread....did the OP buy a project or restored truck?!