What engine would you put in a 72 SIII?

[sleam]

Hello folks, after chatting to some friends about my Series, I'm looking into getting a new engine in the SIII> what would you do? Bear in mind, it's beyond my skills so a mechanic will be doing this for me! I like the suggestion Teriann had in another thread about a Ford engine. It sounded like it didn't affect everything else just more power and good handling.
What do you think?

[SafeAirOne]

What are you trying to achieve with a different engine? It'll help folks recommend LOGICAL candidates.

What's wrong with the existing engine, in your view?

[greenmeanie]

I like the suggestion Teriann had in another thread about a Ford engine. It sounded like it didn't affect everything else just more power and good handling.
What do you think?

I think you might want to go to her website and see the changes she's done to her truck and then reconsider your statement. Now she makes the valid point that gearbox to TC adapters are now available off the shelf so things are easier these days but you'll still end up swapping the entire drivetrain, making bulkhead mods for most V8s and the thousand other detail changes that go wih an engine swap. Bar one or two bolt in replacements (Even they require some work if you're going from petrol to diesel) it will change everything.

Mark makes a very valid point. Change for change sake won't be very satisfying.

[kenscs]

I have been doing some work on this lately myself since I just dont have enough pull with the original 2.25 petrol in my '71 SIIa. Even with 8:1 compression and new Weber carb, it still isnt enough to get me around town. I am currently working on the issue that it might be something other than engine, because when I put the choke on a bit, it get more uphill power. Anyway, to YOUR question, here is what my digging around forums had let me.

For simplicity sake, you can stick to an engine with same block as what is likley your 4 cylinder, so moving to a 200DI or if you want a little more the right 200 TDI Turbo. If you get the right Turbo, you dont have to do too much, and from what I read, it makes a healthy difference. I doubt you will be doing 0 to 60 in 8 seconds, but someone else who runs that setup may know more what the relative transition is. To make life easy in this transition, there is a short bell housing you can mate to the R380 transmission so you also get syncro in all gears.

After the 200TDI, what I ascertained was, it aint going to be too easy and I might as well get out a very large check book or make this my FULL time hobby for a few months to do the necessary work to change mounts, etc, for a new engine block. Others with more expereince here can correct me if I am off base, but if you search on "engine swap" or "200TDI" in this forum, there is a ton of very helpful info. Also try Googling the same. Rovers North, our hosts, can help you track down an engine as well as a place in Atlanta.

[sleam]

Well, yes, I did read her website in more detail and hmm, she had to do a lot of work! Mine is more a case like that kenscs wrote about. The old 2.25 petrol engine is just not cutting it any more. It'll need a valve/ seals/ bore job etc soon as the blue smoke and wet plugs tell me. The compression is low. The power is low, especially as I live in a mountainous area and I drag up hill at 30mph if I'm lucky with the traffic backed up.
I've done a good tune up recently and that didn't help.
So I'm just doing some research into options. I like the idea of more strength on the hills and a good running speed of 55 mph is fine.
Perhaps it's as simple as a rebuilt engine or even just a new 2.25? Friends suggest I put in a diesel if I go that route.

[alaskantinbender]

I don't know how much your elevation is affecting the power of the 2.25. We just acquired a 73 S3 88 for my wife to drive with a 2.25 and its a very peppy ride at sea level. No problem at 55 and pushed will do 65 on the flats. The only thing not stock is a single barrel webber carb.
If its in fact your elevation the rover turbo diesel would be my recommendation. Less fabrication problem's changing engines with more torque and fuel economy.

Good luck and take lots of pics for us:thumb-up:

Well, yes, I did read her website in more detail and hmm, she had to do a lot of work! Mine is more a case like that kenscs wrote about. The old 2.25 petrol engine is just not cutting it any more. It'll need a valve/ seals/ bore job etc soon as the blue smoke and wet plugs tell me. The compression is low. The power is low, especially as I live in a mountainous area and I drag up hill at 30mph if I'm lucky with the traffic backed up.
I've done a good tune up recently and that didn't help.
So I'm just doing some research into options. I like the idea of more strength on the hills and a good running speed of 55 mph is fine.
Perhaps it's as simple as a rebuilt engine or even just a new 2.25? Friends suggest I put in a diesel if I go that route.

[PeterK]

If you resist the 200tdi craze you might consider the GM 4.3 V6.
No mods to the truck other than motor mounts.
Mine is turning a NV3550 through the Advance Adapters Tcase adapter.
I'm currently bombing down the east coast towing a 24' Airstream.
Cruising at 65.
(Till a U joint exploded today)
I know diesel is appealing but this is a very tidy and cheap setup.

Peter

[antichrist]

Easiest is, obviously, a rebuilt 2.25/2.5 petrol or diesel. If you buy a rebult 2.25 I'd get a 5 main bearing engine.
Next easiest it probably a 200DI then a Defender 200Tdi then a 200Tdi from D1 (Defender turbo is better located for a Series). In the mountains I'd go with the Tdi.
The diesels can use the same fuel system just with the addition of a fuel return line to the tank, a simple modification.

But it really comes down, as mentioned, how you use/want to use your Rover. If it's just a runabout and some off-roading probably a rebuilt replacement engine. Or get yours rebuilt. If a high yearly mileage, a diesel makes more sense.

[nz rover]

Hey Sleam - I am in a similar predicament and have done a ton of research as well. My '66 109" is going through a swap (soon) and it's no small feat. I've got a post nestled somewhere in the forum as well on a similar topic. From my perspective it comes down to how deep your pockets are and what you really want to do. In your case it sounds like you want a mechanic to do the swap so the labor, particularly with a GM or Ford V8 will be rather costly. Another important consideration is heat, it's a narrow chassis and small engine bay so heat builds quickly (the nail in the coffin regarding header choices).

Peter mentioned the GM 4.3 / 3550 combo which is my other top contender. The lack of the 2 additional cylinders from a 350 small block make it an appealing choice (much shorter block). The only problem I've had with the 4.3L V6 is that I don't see a big aftermarket for it, but that may be a result of not knowing exactly where to look.

Good luck, keep us posted. The motor / trans swap is always a fun discussion.

[o2batsea]

Have done a couple and there is no easy pathway other than rebuilding what is already there. Larger displacement engines, especially multi bank engines, engender many other engineering changes. More cooling, more transmission, body modifications, fuel system mods, more stopping power, blah blah blah...
If you are paying someone else to do the work, this stuff really starts hurting quickly. I would conservatively estimate somewhere between 6 and 10 thousand for a swap of the nature you describe.
Maybe you should start thinking more like buying a 90 and either selling the Series or keep it and accept it for what it is. In the next couple of years the Tdi powered 90 an 110s will become legal to import, so the flood gates will once again open up having been recently slammed. There are also gobs of LHD 90s with 4 cylinder diesels and petrols that are legal to bring in now, so there are options.

[TeriAnn]

I have always advocated a system approach to engine swaps. If you increase power you need to go through the rest of the drive train and strengthen the weakest parts to be able to handle the additional power.

The weakest parts of your drive train are the gearbox, 2 pin Rover R&P carrier, and 10 spline rear axles.

Your easiest upgrade path is to go to ACR and buy a rebuilt 2.5L petrol engine with one of their flowed 9:1 cylinder heads and SU intake manifold. That would be about as bolt in as you could get on an engine swap and The go pretty good. I would suggest upgrading to an aftermarket carrier and 24 spline rear axles to go with that. And I would suggest being easy with the clutch.

Next would be either a 200 or 300 tdi (both have almost identical power curves but the 300 is quieter). A 300tdi would need a 200tdi flywheel housing to fit the Series bell housing. Both would need the Defender manifolds. These engines are a nice power upgrade to the 2.25 but are ballpark to the ACR 2.5 petrol for power. These engines are not known for being robust. You will have to play some games with the radiator bulkhead to get the intercooler & radiator to fit and be in the airstream.

Next would be the Mercedes 617 diesel five cylinder engine. More robust that the 200/300tdis, available locally with local parts support. Rob Davis has engineered a conversion kit to fit one into a Series 4 cyl engine bay. This is about the longest engine that can fit into a 4 cylinder bay.

For any of the diesels you would want to add an overdrive. Either the Roverdrive or the Santana overdrive clone made by Heystee automotive. Again these should all have a 24 spline rear axle & aftermarket carrier upgrade. Plus your will be gentle on the clutch.

Anything more powerful than these will require a gearbox & clutch upgrade as well. And when you go with a V engine you need to install power steering for clearance. Remember if you want to get back home from a trip you need to take a systems approach to the drive train.

Your cheapest upgrade might be to make do until 2015 and then look for a LHD 1990 200tdi D90. The mainland Europe has LHD & less rust. than is common in the UK.

[sleam]

Thanks everyone, great food for thought. I think that the rebuilt is the way to go for now and yes, in a couple of years import from England (where I grew up and my brother has a Defender!)...I'll talk to my mechanic about the upgrades to go along with the engine as you suggested TerriAnn. Thanks again!
s

[siii8873]

2.25 petrol or diesel.

[I Leak Oil]

Mid to late 2000's LS motor with SM465 would be a sweet setup. Gobbs of power and good efficiency.

[kenscs]

Another option I have been exploring is a Turner Engineering swap of even just the head that they performance tune. My guess is that will give you a decent boost.

http://turner-engineering.co.uk/html/cylinderheads.html

Here is an article with on the swap.

http://turner-engineering.co.uk/html/articlepw.html

[roverrick]

I have a 75 lightweight with a 4.203 perkins, luv it

[REDrum]

I have always advocated a system approach to engine swaps. If you increase power you need to go through the rest of the drive train and strengthen the weakest parts to be able to handle the additional power.

The weakest parts of your drive train are the gearbox, 2 pin Rover R&P carrier, and 10 spline rear axles.

Your easiest upgrade path is to go to ACR and buy a rebuilt 2.5L petrol engine with one of their flowed 9:1 cylinder heads and SU intake manifold. That would be about as bolt in as you could get on an engine swap and The go pretty good. I would suggest upgrading to an aftermarket carrier and 24 spline rear axles to go with that. And I would suggest being easy with the clutch.


This needs to be stickied, by far the best cost/benefit option for a series truck.
I have run costs every which way on 200Td and 300Td swaps into an 88 and just doesn't make financial sense. (I know, I know either does owning a rover....)

If I wuz hauling a lot of gear in/on a 109, I may consider with some US small block V8 and upgrade all 4 drive shafts and gear box

[Andrew IIA]

Another option I have been exploring is a Turner Engineering swap of even just the head that they performance tune. My guess is that will give you a decent boost.

http://turner-engineering.co.uk/html/cylinderheads.html

Here is an article with on the swap.

http://turner-engineering.co.uk/html/articlepw.html

I love my Turner HO 2.25. Great original-esque style :-).

[TeriAnn]

I have run costs every which way on 200Td and 300Td swaps into an 88 and just doesn't make financial sense. (I know, I know either does owning a rover....)


Back in 1998 when I was costing out various engine conversions for my Dormobile I had a strong preference for a turbo diesel. I also was insistent about starting off with a fresh engine and not one that already had 100,000 or so miles already on it with an unknown maintenance history. I found that the 200/300tdi engines had a reputation for being cheaply made and easily damaged by overheating. Kits for swapping in non LR diesels that produced 130 HP or more seemed non existent at the time. Most of the likely engine swaps were never offered in the US so parts would have to be ordered from overseas with the delays and probability of receiving the wrong part.

I was considering a Nissan diesel engine that found limited use in the US. Just the parts to completely overhaul one was slightly over $6000. At the same time I could make a deal to purchase a Ford 302 V8 remanufactured long block for $1000 + exchange. The remanufactured engine came with a 30,000 mile/ 5 year warranty. I looked at the price differences for a complete engine swap & drive train upgrade verses the expected fuel savings on the diesel for the first 150,000 miles. Throw in the price differential between regular petrol and diesel fuel and I could not break even in the first 150,000 miles. And the V8 had more power for climbing mountain ranges at the speed limit. With a popular American V8 any part on the engine is available on the shelf or by next morning at any North American auto parts store at a small fraction of the price of the corresponding diesel part.

By every method I could think of to compare the cost of a fresh engine conversion and running a diesel vs petrol engine in an LR engine bay the petrol engine was the cheapest for greater than 150,000 miles. There was one method, but it included a diesel engine that could drive on biodiesel, building in a dual fuel system into the truck, building a biodiesel plant at the house and spending my weekends going from restaurant to restaurant begging for used cooking oil then filtering it and getting it ready to put into a fuel tank.

I think today I would strongly consider the Mercedes 617 diesel conversion kit that Rob as come up with. These are well regarded reliable engines with good parts availability in the US. But I'd be very leery about putting one in front of the weak Series gearbox. An engine with compatible gearbox swap still makes the best sense to me and Advance adapters has made this a lot easier with a range of adapters to fit different popular gearboxes to a Series transfercase.

So here I am running the same 302 for 16 years.

Also, If I were considering shelling out the big bucks to buy a European performance rebuilt petrol engine I would insist on a 2.5 engine. That longer crank shaft give you noticeably more torque which is badly needed in the hills.

[o2batsea]

So here I am running the same 302 for 16 years.

And with regular oil changes and routine maintenance there is no reason not to expect another 16. Then, when it finally does go south, drop in yet another rebuilt 302 for probably another couple grand and back in bidness. Although, a nice 427 would really wake things up and would bolt right in with virtually no mods, except maybe bigger injectors and a chipped ECU. Call it a CobraDor!
Pound for pound, nothing makes HP like a gasoline engine, at least not for practical purposes.

Imagineering aside, the safest route is with a 2.5. Fits, runs well enough, and doesn't require a lot of modification.

[Revtor]

My dad's truck has an ACR "stage 2" 9:1 head on the otherwise stock 2.25 and it has very noticeable pep compared to my stock 7:1 2.25. Might go that route.



~Steve