109 Frame Off Resto - Work Space Requirements & Hints For Success

[JimnNC]

Hoping there are some experts or experienced folks who can provide some advice as I gear up to start on prep for this project. Situation & facts are as follows:

I absolutely have to pull everything off the frame & the bulkhead as both are beyond salvage - IMO.

I parked it 15 years ago, shortly after acquiring it, knowing when I bought it that the frame was beyond suspect. Since then, putting 3 daughters through college, two weddings for them, a new wife for me & the sale of my old money pit house, the perpetually delayed Land Rover project is now near the top of the time & money demands list - so I am looking forward to getting started. I actually have a starting budget and if all goes according to plan for the next year - should be able to add to it periodically - but where & how to start are the questions I hope you all can assist me with at this phase.

As can be seen (I hope), the wagon is parked/resting/planted - along side my garage. Unfortunately my single care garage & adjoining small shop space, has no room to accommodate the vehicle, but I will bring pieces in to store, & work on as removed & necessary, but ALL the removal and new frame assemblage work will need to be under a separate cover. Because I live in N. Carolina other than summer heat and the short winters we typically have (this past winter notwithstanding :() this should not be too much of an inconvenience.

9550

My plan is to start removal of parts, body, engine etc...right where it sits and to start assembling the new chassis either to the front or rear of where the current wagon sits. I plan to assemble another temporary cover similar to what I have over the rover under, to work under during the project.

Wonder if anyone has thoughts or opinions on this approach. Mainly concerned about lack of side space.

And last question (for now)...should I complete all or most of the disassembly before I start ordering new stuff? Any advantage or disadvantage to one approach or another? Bearing in mind that I'm not planning a show room resto, just plan to get a galvanized frame underneath and get all structural and mechanicals in order so it can be driven, so no need to be concerned about pristine facilities.

If I should be referring to some FAQ's on this - happy to be directed there.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Jim

[JimnNC]

Attempt to paste a better image:

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[mearstrae]

It should be do-able. I wouldn't pick up any new parts until I had the old saved ones; labeled, cleaned, and ready for repair. No sense in falling over new parts that are being stored. Start with the body panels and work your way down, there'll be less in your way as you work toward the dirty, heavy stuff in the frame. There may be stuff that doesn't look so bad, once it's cleaned up, and can be reused (and maybe somethings will look horrible and lead to unplanned repairs). The weather wasn't too bad down there this winter (wink-wink), my inlaws live over east in Stoval.

'95 R.R.C. Lwb (Gone...)
'76 Series III Hybrid 109
'70 Rover 3500S

[CKubinec]

Jim - Doing that much tear down and rebuild out in the open on a dirt floor and cramped for space is going to be difficult. Ya got more nerve than me. More power to ya. As for advice: tag and label everything, keep fasteners for areas separate in coffee cans etc and labeled, lots of digital pictures of how things come apart(might be obvious now but not in six months), interior perishable items first, then outer panels etc. Best of luck. Chuck

[JimnNC]

Appreciate the advice Chuck. In my case the situation is kind of in dictating my options, but if I waited for a situational improvement I would never get this party started :-)

Thinking now that you mention it - the labeling and storing of parts will require more thought on my part, so seems my first steps are to make room for those things in my shop and prepare space and a storage system for removed parts.

Appreciate the "start inside first" guidance.

Thanks for the advice.

Jim

[JimnNC]

Appreciate the input... I have a feeling the weather during this project will be the most certain variable.... if working on old houses and motorcycles in the past has given me anything to go by where this project is concerned :-).

Thanks,

Jim

[o2batsea]

Just how restored do you want it to be? Are you going to disassemble it because you are going to get rid of all the corrosion? If so prepare for some "worst case" scenarios. Also, how OK are you with reproduction parts? The availability of good 2A parts is poor, and repro parts are usually of worse quality than the originals.
For a taste of what you are up against, you can go look at my build thread over on the Defendersource here (http://www.defendersource.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33249). This is three years in the works. Almost done. It is a resto-mod where I converted to coil sprung chassis, 200Tdi, R380/LT230, new Exmoor custom interior.

[timdbacon]

I agree with Chuck K - my biggest concern would be the dirt floor and inevitable loss of parts etc. I always had that problem working on my 1956 Ford 640 tractor in our barn, and have had the floor cemented in anticipation of frame off restore on my 1967 IIa - hopefully starting as soon as I and everything else in Central Pa thaws a bit!

[darbsclt]

Thinking now that you mention it - the labeling and storing of parts will require more thought on my part, so seems my first steps are to make room for those things in my shop and prepare space and a storage system for removed parts.

When I partially disassembled my 88 for painting, I grabbed a couple big boxes of ziploc freezer storage bags from Costco. Ziplocs + Black Sharpies + lidded/stackable Totes +lots of pictures on my phone helped tremendously.


timdbacon
I agree with Chuck K - my biggest concern would be the dirt floor and inevitable loss of parts etc.

... and FIRE ANTS!... those little buggers have a way of sneaking up on you. If at all possible, I'd prepare the floor/ground by pulling the 109 out, clean/smooth/cut back the area, lay some kind of subfloor (even if that's just a heavy plastic tarp) and then return the 109. You'll want a barrier between you and bitey things & something to catch the nuts/bolts/washers that you will inevitably drop.

[1971Series88]

If this is a first time resto for you PLEASE do not throw anything out...even if it looks broken, and I mean NOTHING. Keep every nut, bolt & washer and put them in baggies marking the baggies with a permanent marker from whence they came. Do it like this:
One bag marked RIGHT WING - then every nut, bolt, washer and riv nut goes in there. Then put that baggie in a box marked FASTENERS.

Start at the front. Wings off first, then breakfast - opening up the bulkhead and engine bay/engine. Then move your way to the rear.

I have done 3 of these in 2yrs...this system has worked well - and I don't have the room that others do. BUT, I would suggest you take heed of moving the truck and putting something down on that dirt floor...that would be a PIA to work out in the dirt. But is what it is. Make as much room as you can in the garage - build a loft if you have to, to get stuff out of the way. You need as much space as possible.

Remember to treat EVERYTHING on that vehicle as a priceless, unobtainable, unreplaceable object and you will do fine. :)

[stomper]

I have not done a frame off restoration, but the suggestions posted are logical and good advice. Thinking a little farther ahead, once you get the interior, wings and tub out of the way, I would order your new chassis and bulkhead. You probably should order new engine mounts, transmission mounts, bushings at the same time. You will be able to remove, clean, and then refit the parts from the old frame to the new one without storing and losing parts relatively easily.

An axle can come off the old chassis, in the morning, and cleaned during the day, and refitted to the new chassis that night. Of course if sand blasting and reconditioning is necessary, this could take a little longer.

[NC_Mule]

I have done 3 of these in 2yrs...

After 3, ball park how many hours does it take for the transfer? Estimate just doing a frame swap not painting and powder coating a bunch of stuff.

Thanks pb

[o2batsea]

Also, triple whatever you think it will cost, and you'll be about halfway to the actual expense.

[ignotus]

Hi,

Welcome to the club! I just finished a rebuild of a 1960 109. It took around 2.5 years, in a gravel driveway on a slant with no roof. I think the above suggestions are very good. I would add that probably the most difficult part of the job will be moving the engine oand transmission. I did use an engine hoist to do both but had to put plywood down to roll the hoist around. PITA! I didn't have any issues with dropped parts, have a magnet handy if you need one. I did use Ziploc's for all the small stuff. It is possible with a hoist to remove the bodywork as all one piece but I don't think you will be able to. Take lots of pictures---more than you think you need from every angle you can. Parts are available in the UK, goooooooooooogle is your friend. If you don't have one get a workshop manual and a parts catalogue. IIRC RN has a resto discount?
I did a blog too; poppageno@blogspot.com

HTH
gene

[rickv100]

Are there any plans to move. Silly question but parts inevitably get lost in moves.

Also do a component at a time so parts are not lost or intermixed.

Rick

[JimnNC]

Thanks ALL for the advice, suggestions and sharing your experiences. What I've got from all this is the following:

1. Keep ALL parts - rusty, damaged, etc.... throw NOTHING away.
2. Photo & photo more
3. Bag everything, label the bags & store in labeled bins, etc...link to photo's for reference.
4. Prep the floor - don't work on the dirt floor if can be helped.
5. Start disassembly - moving from front to rear.
6. My idea of a "budget" should allow for tripling & then some.
7. Engine & gearbox removal - my back is aching thinking about this... but I need to find a friend with an engine hoist :-)

I will check out the blogs shared - looking forward to that...thanks for sharing guys.
And I will consider doing one myself. I did not do a good job of capturing for posterity, the motorcycle resto and old house resto work I've done over the years, and regret only having disconnected photos, and even more disconnected memories of what all that work took, and especially the before & after images.

I do have the applicable shop manuals and the Haynes/Dunstall restoration guide which has been read through a couple times over the years in anticipation of this day finally arriving. And of course there is the wealth of knowledge on this forum that I am sure I'll be calling on for help.

At my wife's suggestion I've been making some inquiries around town for a suitable covered work area that I can rent to work in for a year or so. Seems like a reasonable idea - to at least get the rolling chassis, bulkhead, engine & drive train work done so maybe the outdoor work shop will fade off into the sunset....

Cheers for now....

Jim

[Escargo]

If you haven't already, check out the series 2 forum. Several guys across the pond show in detail how they clean and refurbish the original parts, i.e.. carb, fuel pump, etc. Really interesting stuff.

[o2batsea]

Well, I dunno. I think taking a bunch of photos really doesn't help that much. It only goes together one way, and the process is well documented. Bagging stuff? yeah maybe. Thing is, you're going to replace all the nuts and bolts with new, and in that case you'll be buying in bulk. You will need about 150-odd 1/4-28 x 3/4 hex head bolts, About half again as many 1" ones. 5/16 x 24 for the door hinges. Also for the rear grab handles. 3/16x1/2 closed end pop rivets about two boxes of 100. If you go with the domed head hammer rivets, you'll also need about 200. If you redo the gutter channel, there are about 100-something 5/32 pan head tube rivets in just the gutter. I used alloy hammer rivets, and cheated by using a pneumatic squeezer. (Thanks Rick!)
Save the captured nut and bolt plates. Even if they are rusty and cruddy, you can bring them back with a soak in Rust-solve and replating with zinc. They are only available reproduction and they are awful quality. Really awful. And expensive, like $20 per in some cases.
Rotten doors can be restored as well. You take the skins off, repair and galvanize the frame, and put the skins back on.
Areas of rotten aluminum will need to be cut out and new metal put in. If you don't tig weld, then you need to learn. It's really the only good way of joining thin aluminum. And we assume you know gas or wire already.
I would say that you should not try to restore by taking the entire vehicle apart all at once. You should first buy your chassis, new springs and get another set of axles and get the rolling chassis assembled. Then put in the engine and transmission, fuel tank and lines, brake lines, exhaust, and after all that start on the body.

[darbsclt]

If you haven't already, check out the series 2 forum. Several guys across the pond show in detail how they clean and refurbish the original parts, i.e.. carb, fuel pump, etc. Really interesting stuff.

Yes!... ^^^...

You may also want to check out a friend's blog... mud4fun (http://mud4fun.com/)
I have found it very useful and inspirational.


o2batsea
Well, I dunno. I think taking a bunch of photos really doesn't help that much.

Mechanically, I tend to agree (though I still did it)... Electrically, however, I found photos crucial. It was much easier for me to snap a few photos of switch/gauge/lamp wiring as opposed to spending many frustrating hours scratching my head staring at a wiring digram. (the back of that dang ignition switch still seems like a puzzle to me).

[o2batsea]

If it's anything like my 109, the wires were all covered in blackbrown grime, the cloth covering decaying and frayed, and any hope of identifying colors long lost to time. A new harness was installed.

[Partsman]

If you haven't already, check out the series 2 forum. Several guys across the pond show in detail how they clean and refurbish the original parts, i.e.. carb, fuel pump, etc. Really interesting stuff.

Definitely, check out the restoration by a user named Worf, he did an amazing restoration, and a very detailed thread on it. ^^


Yes!... ^^^...

You may also want to check out a friend's blog... mud4fun (http://mud4fun.com/)
I have found it very useful and inspirational.



Mechanically, I tend to agree (though I still did it)... Electrically, however, I found photos crucial. It was much easier for me to snap a few photos of switch/gauge/lamp wiring as opposed to spending many frustrating hours scratching my head staring at a wiring digram. (the back of that dang ignition switch still seems like a puzzle to me).

I also agree on Mud's blog spot, he's got some great information on there, and very good descriptions. While you're at it, give Terri Ann's site a read, you'll find much of the information and upgrades to be very useful while the truck is apart: http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/

[o2batsea]

One thing I will add. The process of restoration as I'm sure you are aware, is filled with hours of great tinkering fun. It can also very easily slip into the realm of "chore to be endured". The end seems very far away. Money is going out the door without any visible results, and an endless upply of roadblocks are popping up. Not to mention that you still have your regular life to live. It is at the low points in the build that you will find yourself wondering why you thought that this would be a good idea. I guess my point is that the greatest challenge is not the truck, but the blob of protein between your ears. Good luck with that, we're here for you.

[1971Series88]

One more thing...Bill can attest to this...TIME

If you plan on moving at all in the next 3 years forget it! Wait. If you plan on doing a full rest like you allude to then you will want at least 3 years in situ

[o2batsea]

One more thing...Bill can attest to this...TIME

If you plan on moving at all in the next 3 years forget it! Wait. If you plan on doing a full rest like you allude to then you will want at least 3 years in situ
Money

[darbsclt]

One more thing...Bill can attest to this...TIME

Oh... com'on... don't scare the guy!
Here some chaps that did "the swap" in 16 hours! :rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpTKTwEQksE

[JimnNC]

Thanks all - again for the helpful experienced based insight & suggestions.... been adding to my notes.

I see in my future a TIG welding class at my local community college... been wanting to do that anyway... just more impetus to do so now.

For sure - for me - this will be as much about the journey as the destination - so accordingly there is no intent on my part to put together a 109 version of the 16 hour SWB Series chassis swap shown in the you tube clip shared. :D

Looking forward to perusing the recommended blogs & will wade into the Series 2 forum as well.

I now have a bit more time on my hands, so can devote to assembling the first list of stuff to buy while efforts continue to locate a suitable local work space to rent - for at least the first chunk of this project. So until I have that arranged, no point in having heavy - freight shipped stuff delivered to my home address only to have to figure out where to store it & move it later.

Can't say thanks enough for all the replies.

Oh... and I have added wiring harness to the "gotta get it new" list of stuff. I totally learned my lesson on my British motorcycles. Anything with Mr. Lucas' name on it requires elimination of any and ALL old and potentially cantankerous electrical elements.

Cheers all...

Jim

[Dibsen]

If your up for it, I would love to "watch" you do your tear down and build up. I know a lot of time I consider doing a write up after a repair but without a second set of hands, the whole photo journaling thing becomes less important than getting my rover back on the road.

[cmcgahagin]

Jim,
How's the rebuild going? I was reading your post with interest. I have a similar story except I have a two car garage. I bought a '69 IIA back in 86. Being in the military it quickly went into the garage for the next 25 years as my retirement rebuild project. I should be starting my frame up rebuild next spring. So I'm in the process of pulling together ideas, contacts, & lessons learned.
Charles

[JimnNC]

Hi all... been a while since I started down this path... albeit in fits & starts.

Charles... thanks for your inquiry & interest. Regarding lessons learned and best practices, I would say please see the advice given to me in this thread. Folks here have been great with URL, and input re: best practices.

Regarding my project, things took a few detours since I began this post in March. Before digging into the disassemble I sought some local advice to ID salvage-ability of parts where their condition was to me not too clear. This double check cost me a couple hundred dollars and confirmed what I feared about the amount of work required. The good thing that came from this effort, is that as a result of this contact, I was turned on to another parted out 109 up for sale practically in my neighborhood....so with the initial intent of making one good 109 out of two, I raided my project budget and bought what is essentially an 95% intact 109, but with all good parts that my first 109 was lacking for just about what it would have cost me for just a replacement chassis... so I now essentially have 2 109's to deal with. One that is no further along than it was 8 months ago, and one that is in boxes, tubs, on pallets etc...

My new plan is to focus on rebuilding the one I just bought... to learn from the assembly process of the new 109, and to then tackle my first intended project once I have rebuilt this disassembled one. I can't bring my self to cannibalize one of there two...I feel a strong obligation to put both right now.

So where I stand at this point is I have my original 109 parked in a 1,000 square foot warehouse bay that I am renting. I'll use it for reference during reassembly of the parted out 109.

Also in this space are ALL the new 109 parts - the last loads I just hauled in over New Years. It is amazing how easy it was to fill that once cavernous space. I should mention that the new 109 haul also included several miscellaneous non-109 LR parts that came with the deal, that will soon go for sale to make room and help fund things. Clearing those out should make some room.

Currently I am in the process of turning this once empty space into a workshop, have built some shelves, a couple work benches and am working on lighting & electric for the space. The warehouse is about 1.5 miles from my house, so is convenient and at $200 a month, not too bad an expense. And the big plus about this space is that it is directly next to a machine & welding shop, so two skills/tools I lack can be supported by my neighbors.

My plan... focus this winter on building a rolling chassis.

1. Assemble a pile of parts to be stripped & galvanized, to include:
Chassis
Door HW
Bonnet HW
Seat HW
Bulkhead
Misc. Trim bits
2. Service axles & suspension while step 1 is being stripped & dipped.
Clean
Paint
Reassemble
3. Once parts are back from the galvanizer, mount axles to chassis

Next steps...have to refer to the video links & URL's provided here, and of course raise some questions with the experts here & on the Guns & Rover forum.

Regarding resto plans... I'm not planning to build a mint LR...just clean it up, put it right, do the work right so it will last, and make it look nice.

I'll post up some pics of things as they are, and as things progress, but for now wanted to post up something so folks would know things are still a go, just on a different path now.

Cheers all...

Jim

'64 109 Series II a - petrol - parked & not running
'66 109 Series II a - petrol - in pieces but mostly there
A smattering of old British motorcycles - mostly running

[cedryck]

My two cents,
My ex-mod short wheel base took years for me to complete, New frame, engine, drivetrain all rebuilt, new plumbing and wiring harness, paint, interior the whole 9 yards. I guess my best advice it take your time, read, ask questions, look at diagrams before you bust into the transmission, or drive train. I did everything myself, and ended up purchasing tools to do things like a welder to make a bulkhead, pipe flaring tools to make plumbing for clutch and brakes. If you take your time, part out the work you are not familiar with, and assemble properly, you will be happy at the end, and most importantly your truck will start, drive, brake, and server you for many years. cheers,

[JimnNC]

Cheers Cedryck....definitely will not be a sprint race for me. As witnessed by my snails pace thus far, should be obvious I'm in this for the long haul. :eek:

[cedryck]

Good plan Jim NC. It was also a money thing with me, we started a family, and I was in Grad school, so forking out 1,500$ for a new tranny was not an option. I took a tranny that was knackered, but usable, and build it up again. Painted myself, bulkhead myself,
It took a lot longer than I anticipated but the satisfaction was worth it. Use this forum too folks will give you honest advice, and our hosts have helped me out many times as well,,,cheers,,,,,