Shorland brake booster problems.

[917601]

Hello, I was replacing my two front brakes flex lines ( these were dated 1984), went to bleed the brakes, had small success, then I decided to bleed them with the engine running at idle ( big mistake). The engine started running rough, the brake pedal free play disappeared, and I noticed a slight hiss sound. I disconnected the booster hose from the intake, plugged the intake, it idles smooth again. My problem, it appears my 1972, RH drive, 6 cylinder, Shorland booster is not the average booster ( judging by Rovers North parts catalog). It is mounted on the RH side frame, aft of the air cleaner. I see no fluid leaks, but suspect an air leak from somewhere.
1) can I still drive it safely? ...I took it around the block, but at 7,500 lbs it takes a lot of foot power to stop.
2) how can I troubleshoot to make sure the booster is the problem?
3) can I rebuild the booster?
4)how in the h@ll does this booster work? It is not directly connected to the master cylinder, one ( maybe 2) brake lines only, and the vacuum hose.

All help appreciated, I need it for an Airshow by Oct 10.

[yorker]

I thought Shorlands used remote servos like the other 2.6l 109s- I'm not really familiar with them beyond that though.

[917601]

Anyone familiar with the remote brake Servo Ratsport sells? It mentions it has a boost ratio of 1.9:1, and a suitable replacement for many cars, Landrover one of them.item number 9611404.

http://www.ratsport.com/PBSCProduct.asp?ItmID=9611404

[mearstrae]

My 1970 Rover 3500S has a dual servo brake system (one in the conventional location and one mounted next to the radiator), but it looks nothing like your Shortland. Mine's more like the one 917601 has linked to. I have to admit I've never seen one like in the Shortland pics.

'95 R.R.C. Lwb (Gone...)
'76 Series III Hybrid 109
'70 Rover 3500S

[917601]

I have confirmed my booster is leaking, a large amount of manifold pressure is being drawn through the " tube" . Diaphragm rupture is suspected. I am deciding whether to bite the bullet and order the Ratsport booster or a Shorland booster rebuild kit. I am leaning for a new one, the Shorland booster is a very rare Booster made for the military 6 cyl 109's.

[luckyjoe]

The Clayton DeWandre remote servo was used on 6cyl 109s and some FC's. This could be what you have, but it is hard for me to tell from you photos. I searched, unsuccessfully, for several years to find a complete rebuild kit. Several sources list it, or say they have/can get it, but when you press them it is NLA.

That ratrod servo kit is pricey. On ebay, you can find them all day long for ~US$130, through MGA Services...

[o2batsea]

Can you just plug the vacuum line to the engine and go unboosted? Your foot pressure may increase, a lot, but it should still brake.
Since it is a mil vehicle it should be "field repairable" I would think. Maybe you can get it apart and replace or repair the diaphragm.

[Les Parker]

10196

Copy from the Land Rover Parts Catalogue. Does this look like the unit you have fitted?

[Donnie]

I think he has a frame mounted hydrovac.. my '67 109 RHD had one which when i took it apart.. found out that i COULD NOT source the parts to rebuild it...I just connected the brake lines together & capped the vacuum source & never looked back..
Being a 1967 it only has a single cup master cyl & I don't really notice that much xtra pedal effort to stop it??????????? Donnie

[yorker]

Considering the weight of a Shorland I'd want all the boost I could get. There are other boosters that work on the series III booster, John Dorr posted the source once.

[clearcut]

Can you just plug the vacuum line to the engine and go unboosted? Your foot pressure may increase, a lot, but it should still brake.
Since it is a mil vehicle it should be "field repairable" I would think. Maybe you can get it apart and replace or repair the diaphragm.

I have lost my brakes

Have added fluid, but nothing shows at the tires or any where else

I do have a 109 6cyl with the setup talk about here.

Master

Clutch Master

these two on driver side US

Servo. this one on other side

Question is, how would I plug the vacuum line to the engine?

With what?

thanks

josh

[SafeAirOne]

how would I plug the vacuum line to the engine? With what?

Go over to that miscellaneous/junk drawer in the kitchen--the one by the hand towels--and rummage through there for a couple minutes till you find a suitably-sized bolt to shove in the end of the vacuum hose.

[triumphtr7guy]

Sparkplugs seem to have a pretty good fit. Find them fairly regularly in parts cars inserted as such

[clearcut]

Update

Still no brakes. 2 or 3 pumps, then to the floor

By passed everything

Getting a pressure brake system next..

there are no leaks of brake fluid

Question, can you get air from the clutch master back into the brake master?

Replaced the brake master
Replaced all brake line to front wheels and back wheels
Did the hose test, IE master is good.
Reset the cams


thanks

josh

[917601]

10196

Copy from the Land Rover Parts Catalogue. Does this look like the unit you have fitted?

Yes, where do I find one in the states, or a rebuild kit? Thank You.

[Contractor]

Update

Still no brakes. 2 or 3 pumps, then to the floor

By passed everything

Getting a pressure brake system next..

there are no leaks of brake fluid

Question, can you get air from the clutch master back into the brake master?

Replaced the brake master
Replaced all brake line to front wheels and back wheels
Did the hose test, IE master is good.
Reset the cams


thanks

josh


Are you 100% positive you bled the brakes and got ALL of the air out?

The 109 master is a Mother F*&^%$ to bleed.

[clearcut]

Are you 100% positive you bled the brakes and got ALL of the air out?

The 109 master is a Mother F*&^%$ to bleed.

Not sure at all

That is why we going to use a pressure bleeder this week.

Having to buy one


Dual Cyl on front wheels is the issue

Anyone used a pressure bleeder?

Best Practices?

[SafeAirOne]

Dual Cyl on front wheels is the issue

Best Practices?


Some folk plumb the fronts so the bottom cylinder is upstream of the top cylinders. In other words, the bottom wheel cylinder will be the first cylinder after the flex line, then the top cylinder, as opposed to the opposite way the factory plumbed the 2 wheel cylinders.

The theory is that the air will want to rise in the system so the bottom cylinder will get the fluid (and get bled) before the top cylinder, where the excess air from the bottom cylinder will gather.

The other way I've seen it done is by removing the backing plate, securing the wheel cylinders so they don't pop out, then bleeding with the brake backing plate sitting horizontally, so the cylinders are at the same height. Once the side is bled, reinstall the brake backing plate on the axle and do the other side. Kind of a huge PITA if you ask me...

[Contractor]

Not sure at all

That is why we going to use a pressure bleeder this week.

Having to buy one


Dual Cyl on front wheels is the issue

Anyone used a pressure bleeder?

Best Practices?

Been there........bang head on wall.


I have had luck gravity bleeding first for a while.

[917601]

10751Can anyone direct me to a store that sells the British brake line fittings or hoses? I may have found a shop to rebuild my remote brake booster, however I need to take it out , ship it, and want to drive it while booster is being repaired. I need a hose/ fitting to go from the old style brake master cylinder directly to the junction block, or a hose to connect both ends at the point where the booster was removed ( a simple brake fitting union? ). Thanks.

[TravelinLight]

Our host would be my first call as they have just about anything. If not...........

http://www.rovahfarm.com/seriesopeningpage-land%20rover%20parts.htm

http://www.rdsparts.com/

http://www.pangolin4x4.com/

[917601]

Our host would be my first call as they have just about anything. If not...........

http://www.rovahfarm.com/seriesopeningpage-land%20rover%20parts.htm

http://www.rdsparts.com/

http://www.pangolin4x4.com/

Thank you, it appears num 2 has a few unions, thanks!

[917601]

Can anyone tell me what size line and thread pitch I would need to use a union to connect the two lines at the booster together? I take it they are standard British bubble flares, but they are asking for line DIA. and thread pitch.

Thank You.

[SafeAirOne]

I don't have the answer for you--In fact, I recognize almost nothing from your picture--but using this resource, you can probably get it figured out:

http://store.fedhillusa.com/technicalhelphowtopdfs.aspx (http://store.fedhillusa.com/technicalhelphowtopdfs.aspx)

Oh wait--I just had another look. I recognize the front drive shaft and the steering gearbox arm.

[917601]

Thank you, on a footnote, I have always had "problems" when bleeding the brakes. I found (as suggested many times), be sure all 4 brake shoes are adjusted correctly. Rover issued a bulletin years ago, jack the wheel, have a person hold brakes down solid, then adjust the snails as far as they go. Release brakes, ( drum will still be unable to move), then back off the snails carefully till wheel is free ( I allow for a very slight drag).They say it lines up shoes and puts least force on the snail adjusters. It solved my soft brake, ( long travel). THEN bleed the brakes as usuall.