Oh noooo - tranmission!!

[slowmo]

Well that says it all. Released clutch at stop light and great big grinding klunk and nothing. The shift lever moves somewhat easier into all positions but no go. Shifted transfer case to low...no go. Back to high...no go.

Other ideas? What am I in for? Crapola.
David

[Les Parker]

Could be a broken 1/2 shaft. Do you have locking front hubs? If so, lock into 4X4 and see if moving into low box gets you mobile.

[cedryck]

Good advice, Les, we have all been there,
pull away, BANG, and no drive, could be half shaft,,,

[slowmo]

I hope you guys are right. I'll test it when I get home. I'll have to read the green bible and see what my next couple of weeks will be like. :(

[o2batsea]

Classic broken axle symptoms.

[ignotus]

Quick way to check if it is the rear axle half shaft, put it in gear (2 wheel drive) look under or down the center seat base and see if the rear prop shaft is turning. If it is you can do as described above^^^^ 4x4 and drive home. Don't drive lots with it as the diff could get damaged with the chunks floating inside.

[slowmo]

Well. I don't think it is an axle. While running the gear shift lever can be moved into any gear without depressing the clutch. That would indicate to me that either the transmission gears are not turning or the something is up with the shifting prongs? Based on the noise during the failure event (substantial) I hate to have to lean towards something major.

Oh. And I got Homer...home. The name seems quite appropriate.

[Les Parker]

When the clutch is depressed, is there any resistance? It has been known for the center of the clutch plate to "let go", thus no drive through the gearbox. Trying to be optimistic and hopefully not a massive transmission failure.
Next step would be to drain the main gearbox and transfer box and see if there any big bits of internal material in the oil or when you check the internals so see if there is any debris. Some pix if you find any material would be helpful to identifying the errant part(s).

[o2batsea]

Layshaft? What suffix is the gearbox? Finding a good used one shouldn't be too difficult or expensive. What hurts is getting the thing installed.

[slowmo]

Thanks guys. The clutch has noticeably less resistance so I will hold that as a dimly hopeful sign. I'll drain the cases through a sieve.

If I get no metal chunks I will proceed as if it is a clutch issue. Broken clutch = no spinning gears. Reasonable hypothesis!

Lining up pessimistic alternatives, if I get chunks or the clutch checks out, I'll get some Series Rover transmission experience. Whoopie. I will provide pics and whatever serial numbers I can find.

Asking a silly question (having no real information to the extent of damage and assuming pessimistic findings) what have others experiences? Options if the tranny is done?

[slowmo]

I drained the transfer case and there were a lot of what appear to be small brass flakes. This was not evident the last time I drained the transfer case (1-1/2 months ago). So the transfer case is making metal.

The transmission spit out one small gear piece 3/16" or so. The oil was clear in comparison to the transfer case.

So I cleared everything out and will rent a hoist sometime this week and begin the tear down process. I forgot to look at the gear box suffix so I'll post that later.

[Hectorious]

Have faith. I just replaced a sheared lay shaft, and sure, it was a bit of a PITA, it wasn't nearly ad difficult as I thought it would be. It requires a full transmission pull, but I was able to drop it out the bottom onto my creeper and wheel it out, then got my son to help lift it to the bench. I even had no pieces left over after the transmission was reinstalled! Follow the big Green Bible and you'll do just fine. I celebrated with a drive in the country just this weekend, and wouldn't you know it, I snapped a half shaft. If you got no motion in 4x4, that ain't what you got (but I think you know that already).

Here's hoping it's the clutch, but don't dread too much if its your trany.

Chris

[slowmo]

Transmission is out and teardown begun. Haven't measured anything yet but observations.

1. The last turkey who overhauled the tranny did not use any (yes...as in ANY) gaskets. He mushed on a ton of gasket sealer and thought that would do the trick. Why the tranny leaked so profusely is no longer a mystery.
2. He did not understand how to seat studs. Removal of each and every bolt resulted in the stud backing out as well.
3. The brass flakes in the transfer box came from the thrust washers of the intermediate shaft. Will need a new intermediate shaft.
4. The gear pieces are off of the layshaft. Will need a new layshaft.
5. The end of the mainshaft which has a roller bearing in the power take off end was damaged by the fact the roller bearing disintegrated. There is any obvious reduction in cross-sectional area. Will need a new mainshaft if I intend to use the power take off or install a Roverdrive later down the road, so yes...new mainshaft.
6. Almost forgot. In removing the front drive shaft, there were two loose bolts at each end. Very loose. Not 4 bolts. Two. That is not something one initially thinks of checking, but I have only had the truck since December. I know the previous owner didn't do a damn thing in terms of even keeping oil in it for 8 years, and whoever did the past work was a ...

David

[slowmo]

10557

At least it is cleaning up nice.

[jac04]

2. He did not understand how to seat studs. Removal of each and every bolt resulted in the stud backing out as well.

I've been into a few gearboxes, and the studs backing out when trying to remove a nut is quite common.

I once owned a 69 IIA that had 380k on the original transmission. I did both the mainshaft and layshaft on it (at different times of course!). Then the axles popped, then the rear diff failed, then I sold it. I loved that vehicle.

[Les Parker]

Probably worth fitting new bearings through out the gear box and intermediate shaft of the t. box. PM me and I'll get a Quote together for you.

[slowmo]

PM sent. Thanks!

[cedryck]

Having never, ever, done a transmission before, I took on the job of re-furbishing with new bearings, seals, paper gaskets, and a new reverse gear on my 2a. A straight forward job, take you time, read, and new bearings a a must. Cheers.

[slowmo]

Just an update. My gearbox is stamped suffix A. So I ordered the appropriate parts for an A. The first thing I noticed was the layshaft was different. Whoopie. Mine has raised teeth and the one for an A does not. The raised teeth layshaft is apparently from a suffix D and beyond tranny. Also the intermediate shaft was also incorrect. Mine is a constant diameter and this one is reduced at one end.

So, the only thing "A" about my tranny is the plate the A is stamped on. My tranny is a D. Isn't that special.

edit to add: I will have some parts for a Suffix A tranny later at bargain basement prices. :(

[cedryck]

it is always fun fixing some others bad fix, sounds like you have it under control. cheers.

[Dibsen]

10557

At least it is cleaning up nice.

Did you wash those in a "parts tank/washer"? I have my engine and tranny out right now, initial cleaning with spray degreaser and a preshure washer got the bulk of but they don't look that good.

[slowmo]

I should probably say I did, but I sat there and zoned out while I cleaned it by hand...rubber gloves, gas, lots of rags, beer. Not in that order. I simply can't reinstall a dirty part. Must be the Forest Gump in me.

[o2batsea]

Use diesel.

[lumpydog]

I should probably say I did, but I sat there and zoned out while I cleaned it by hand...rubber gloves, gas, lots of rags, beer. Not in that order. I simply can't reinstall a dirty part. Must be the Forest Gump in me.

Impressive!

[slowmo]

Who ever designed the rear lay gear bearing concept for this transmission should be shot out of a cannon.

10679

Here's why. The bearing race is pressed into the back of the case (or tapped in with a large wooden dowel and rubber mallet in my case). The roller bearing half is pressed onto the layshaft. Your job, is to insert the layshaft past the main shaft, reverse gear, etc, and get the roller bearing lined up with the race and press it in. Seems easy enough on the surface.

However, it ain't. The gearing on the mainshaft and the reverse gear need to be somehow levitated so that the layshaft can get by. Ok. There are ways to do this. I used sockets underneath the gears and accomplished that part of the mission. Next, when the roller bearing came into contact with the race, not all of the rollers slid inside the race. Since no one on earth has hands small enough to reach in and no tool exists which has eyes and is able to get past the few millimeters of clearance, there is no way to somehow check each and every little roller.

Therefore, if even one roller hangs up on the race instead of nicely slipping into the correct position, the roller bearing half will not mate with the race. Once I finally thought I had them all cooperating, I gave it a little convincing with my trusty rubber mallet. Noting that the shaft was wobbly and therefore, the bearing had not mated with the race, I withdrew the assembly and noted with pure joy that the roller bearing was now ruined.

Pray-tell. Can someone share the trick to accomplishing this task. And if the engineer who is responsible for this cluster-truck of a design is on the forum, please purchase a pie and smash it in your face so I don't have to. That is all.

[Les Parker]

I am sure many out there feel your pain.
When assembling the shafts, try standing the gearbox up on its end, so the shafts are facing vertically. Gravity will assist in lining the layshaft bearing to its race. This is the method we have successfully used for many years. Hope this helps.

2p.

[slowmo]

Gak. I figured out why this wasn't going together so well. As I noted I ordered parts for a suffix A tranny, and it turned out the only part that was suffix A was the plate the A was stamped on. The rest of the tranny is suffix D. Well, Slowmo Einstein put the suffix A first gear on the suffix D layshaft. For reasons known to no one, the suffix A first gear has 15 teeth. The suffix D first gear has 14 teeth (you can see where this is going).

I slathered my aviation gasket gunk on, got the bell housing buttoned up and proceeded to insert the gear selectors. "Hey," said Slowmo Einstein. "I can't get it into first gear. Fiddle-sticks." (edited for the under 18 crowd). Did a little research, kicked the cat (don't have one so that was lucky for the cat we don't have), and ordered the correct parts. I hope.

The odyssey continues.

[SafeAirOne]

Interesting read. I'm watching this thread closely as there's a gearbox rebuild in my future and my currently installed rebuilt transmission may be similarly mysterious.

Applicable info that confirms your finds here: http://www.seriesdiesellandrover.com/Identification%20Gearbox.html

[slowmo]

A little update. Things are going together well. One thing I would point out to those going this route is to order the various shims at various thicknesses. Just do that, because they are inexpensive. I didn't think of ordering more slowdometer housing shims and I need some. Also, I can see no way those shims and the slowdometer housing can be sealed. I will probably "caulk" it with high temp RTV or something. Another poor design "feature."

One question to those experienced. After assembling the main gear box, I notice the shifting between 3rd and 4th is "heavy." I lubricated the syncro and assume that after a bit of running it will loosen up. What say yee?

edit to add: I am not working on this 24/7. Maybe a couple of nights a week after work. I am on the home(r) stretch and might even get it in this weekend...or next. :)

[slowmo]

Finally everything is back in one piece. Got it in place and will button it up this week...I hope. It has been a fun project (mostly).

10745

[darbsclt]

Just a thought... while you have it out... have you considered adding...

- Breather vents to the T-Case and Gearbox?

- A reverse light switch to the gearshift housing? (it's hard to tell if one was fitted)


Cheers...

[slowmo]

I thought I might as well describe the results of this project.

It took obviously longer than I anticipated due to the incorrect marking on the gear box (marked A but it was actually D and beyond), I did not order a wide enough variety of shims leading to delays, and I destroyed the lay shaft bearing a couple of times.

The 3rd and 4th sycnro felt very tight at first before I even fired it up and I was anxious about that. However, the tranny shifts great and does not leak. There is a seep at the speedo housing shims which I anticipated because it is a terrible design that simply will leak no matter what.

I find that it downshifts into 2nd (double clutch method) very well now with no grind.

All in all it was a fun project costing just over $1k. For this undertaking I suggest an attitude of patience. I ordered the majority of parts off shore and some here and there. Obviously the off shore customer service was not there at all and the customer service here was great.