Swivel balls (not a personal problem)

[slowmo]

Well. Maybe it is.

The next project as I move towards having a reliable truck is the leaking swivel balls. I basically have to replace all the seals. That much is given. What else should I be aware of as I dive into this project?

That said, I now have a driving truck. That is new and I might just drive it a while.

I have had the truck since December and the huge list of things I have fixed and replaced is likely more a function of the lack of maintenance by the previous owner. But here is a short summary:

all wheel bearings, brakes, wheel cylinders, shocks
head gasket, exhaust manifold, generator, water pump, heater valve, all hoses and belts, battery
tires, seat cushions, window tracks, etc
added tach, ammeter, voltmeter
added spin on oil filter
transmission, pressure plate, clutch, slave and master cylinder, hoses
rear half shaft


After the swivel balls, I begin to think I might reach an acceptable level of reliability. My TR3 is there. I can trust it, but the Rover...not yet.

Does anyone actually use a Series Rover as a reliable daily driver?

[cedryck]

Slomo,
My series 2a would be a reliable daily driver. But I choose not to as I like music, and I like to hear music, and driving a series truck does not allow me that option, so having said that, and the fact that I work in a city style area, a truck that does not lock up is not a practicle choice as a daily. My V70 is the mobile choice. A/C, radio I can hear, and an alarm. I have been nicked too many times to trust my 2a to protect my stuff when it is out of my sight.
Just my 2 cents, here, Drive your rig, and enjoy it, it will always need attention, but after the hard work in the tranny drive it and enjoy the Rover,

[lumpydog]

all wheel bearings, brakes, wheel cylinders, shocks
head gasket, exhaust manifold, generator, water pump, heater valve, all hoses and belts, battery
tires, seat cushions, window tracks, etc
added tach, ammeter, voltmeter
transmission, pressure plate, clutch, slave and master cylinder, hoses
rear half shaft




Wow! Nice. With regard to the swivel ball seals, TerriAnn has a pretty easy approach that won't require you to dismantle the whole thing: http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/LRhubseal.htm

One thing to check: Turn your steering wheel all the way to the right. Get out and check the front right and back left of the ball's surface for rust-caused pitting. Then turn the steering wheel to the left and check the opposite sides on each ball. Pitting causes the seals to degrade and leak by abrading the rubber seal - so new seals would be a bandaid vs a permanent solution if you have pitting.

No pitting + new seals = no leaking (in theory).

[o2batsea]

I hope I can dissuade you from splitting the seal. Taking apart the swivel is a rite of passage and the zen of it is not to be missed.
It is very easy. You just need to have your bucket of diesel handy to toss parts in as you go. Only thing about it that kinda sucks is getting the old distance pieces off.
My technique for that is to drill thru the flat edge with a 3/16. Then take a cold chisel and whack the thing right where the hole is. That will deform/expand it enough for it to slide off the stub axle. The rest is just nuts and bolts.

[ybt502r]

In response to your last question (plea) - yes, I and multiple others here do use their truck as a daily driver. Not without a few issues now and then (I have the bus as backup but rarely need it). But first I invested in a SIII with mostly updated parts, replaced a list of others, and try to keep up with the rest. My wife used to ask me when I'd give up and buy a 'real car', but she's stopped that by now. I like having a truck I like to drive and that I can drive it every day. Never fails to get a smile out of me or others, save the ones behind me on the freeway. It helps that, in Alaska, the SIII is actually a mostly reasonable mode of travel.

[LaneRover]

At times I used both my 65 109 SW and my 69 109 P-up as my daily driver. They worked great, the only time one of them left me hanging was when something got sucked through the gas line on the SW. I even drove the P-up from LA to SD at night with no alternator as the parking lights were bright enough on the SoCal freeways.

[leafsprung]

Been driving a series daily for 18 years. Currently a 49. Its not as dramatic as you make it sound. Leak free swivels will not make your car reliable. Here are some helpful pointers

-use genuine parts
-if your swivels are pitted they will wear the seal out quickly or simply not seal
-put sealant in the groove in the swivel housing into which the swivel seal fits to prevent oil from weeping around the outside of the seal
-put thick grease (like sig 3000) in the swivel seal lip
-use your favorite thread sealant on all bolts that pass through the swivel housing (seal retainer bolts, swivel pin/bearing bolts etc)
-replace copper crush washer on the swivel pin drain
-use a smear of sealant on swivel pin bearing cap
-adjust your steering stops so that the waist of the swivel ball does not deform the seal lip at full lock

[cedryck]

I understand why Terri, recomends splitting the seal. I get it. But why is that not a good idea?

[Contractor]

I understand why Terri, recomends splitting the seal. I get it. But why is that not a good idea?


Bluntly, it is a half ass repair.


I am with Bill and the rest, do it right the first time.......it's not horrible, just messy.



I drive my series for weeks at a time without driving my true "daily". I would have no issue getting in and driving it across the country.......it took some work to get it to where I felt comfortable doing that, but you will get there. If you have not gotten to put many miles on it since your most recent repairs, let it leak for a while and enjoy the truck. As Ike said, they are not mission critical.

[slowmo]

Thanks for all the tips. I am a do it once, do it right, kind of shade tree mechanic and I like to know my car(truck). I will do the complete tear down so I can see how it all fits together. That way if out in the boonies and something goes wrong I'll have an idea what to do. Then I may do the Terri quick fix method in later iterations or for quick/emergency repairs.

[lumpydog]

Slowmo. Great! I have a pitted ball - not leaking... yet. I'm interested in hearing about your experience. I know others have done this, but I'd love to follow your repair given today's parts suppliers. What you purchase - where you get it, any sticking points. Hoping you will share here or can PM me!

[MJL]

Does anyone use the Nicrotec swivel grease packs in their Series vehicles. I see it advertised for RR Classics and Defenders.

Mike

[jac04]

Thanks for all the tips. I am a do it once, do it right, kind of shade tree mechanic and I like to know my car(truck). I will do the complete tear down so I can see how it all fits together. That way if out in the boonies and something goes wrong I'll have an idea what to do. Then I may do the Terri quick fix method in later iterations or for quick/emergency repairs.

If you do it right, then you should not need need to do any "quick fix" for a loooooong time. Read Ike's (leafsprung) advice several times and follow it, especially the parts about the use of sealants.

[TeriAnn]

Been driving a series daily for 18 years. Currently a 49. Its not as dramatic as you make it sound. Leak free swivels will not make your car reliable. Here are some helpful pointers

-use genuine parts
-if your swivels are pitted they will wear the seal out quickly or simply not seal
-put sealant in the groove in the swivel housing into which the swivel seal fits to prevent oil from weeping around the outside of the seal
-put thick grease (like sig 3000) in the swivel seal lip
-use your favorite thread sealant on all bolts that pass through the swivel housing (seal retainer bolts, swivel pin/bearing bolts etc)
-replace copper crush washer on the swivel pin drain
-use a smear of sealant on swivel pin bearing cap
-adjust your steering stops so that the waist of the swivel ball does not deform the seal lip at full lock

I second every step mentioned in this post. But the key is not to have pitted swivel balls. If yours are, you should replace them or repair them. It is usually cheaper to purchase new ones than to do a proper repair which consists of welding on new metal filing it down to get the exact stock curvature and having the swivel balls hard chromed.

The common low ball cure is to clean the swivel balls very well, add JB weld and sand the dried goo down to the stock curvature. I have never seen it done but some people swear that it works OK.

About using a LR for a daily driver. I have 2 vehicles I use as daily drivers. Depending upon the weather, my mood and if I plan to bring the dog (Irish Wolfhound) along I either take my Land Rover or my TR3. Key to LR is taking care of parts that suffer from neglected maintenance then to follow the factory recommended maintenance schedule in the owners manual (http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/Service_Schedule.html).

For the past 28 years I have had just the LR and TR3 as my only daily drivers. Though the TR3 was offline for a couple years in the late 1980's while I rebuilt her and the LR was offline for a couple of months in 1999 when she received a new engine, gearbox and power steering.

One recommendation, when one axle breaks I suggest that you replace them both because the other is likely near the end of its life cycle as well.

The 10 spline rear axles tend to break at around 45,000 miles. The first two axles broke within 5,000 of my purchasing the vehicle 38 years ago. The axles I installed new seemed to break between 40,000 and 50,000. When the seventh rear axle broke I replaced the entire rear assembly with a Salisbury.

Keep replacing the out of spec parts as you find them and follow the factory maintenance schedule and the vehicle will become dependable.

[TeriAnn]

I understand why Terri, recomends splitting the seal. I get it. But why is that not a good idea?


Bluntly, it is a half ass repair.

Actually the split seal repair method was not my idea. This method was passed down to me by my late land Rover mentor James "Scotty" Howett.

Scotty grew up in the 1930s and early 1940s and went through the traditional UK automotive mechanic apprenticeship programme. After WWII he and his bride immigrated to the US where he started Scotty's foreign auto repair shop which was a British car repair shop. Sometime in the early 1960s Scotty's shop became an authorized Land Rover warranty repair shop. He showed me the authorization document once but I just do not remember the year it was dated.

When Scotty was teaching me this seal replacement method he mentioned that the factory warranty repair book didn't allow enough time for a proper seal replacement so he lost a little money each time his shop replaced a swivel seal under warranty.

Scotty said this repair worked because only the area of thinnest cut you can make in the seal is compromised and the cut area is placed at the top. The rest of the seal remains as stock. The oil inside the swivel sits in the bottom half of the swivel well away from the cut. The only oil that reaches the cut area is splash when the front axles are turning. If you have freewheel hubs oil does not splash up there unless the hubs are locked and the vehicle is in motion. The RTV between the halves of the cut handles the oil splash of a vehicle moving with locked hubs. And an important part of all the swivel seal replacement methods is not to over tighten the bolts holding on the steel seal retaining cover. Over tightening the cover will distort the seal and cause it to leak.

The method has worked for me over the decades. and of course it is a personal decision as to how you replace the seal. I'm just passing along one of the little tricks that my LR mentor had passed on to me.

[jac04]

Scotty said this repair worked because only the area of thinnest cut you can make in the seal is compromised and the cut area is placed at the top. The rest of the seal remains as stock.
The strength of the seal comes from the outer metal case. As soon as you split it, it compromises the entire seal. As you install the seal and it pushes the rubber lip against the swivel ball, the split steel case will flex and you will not get the seal contact pressure you want.

[TeriAnn]

The strength of the seal comes from the outer metal case. As soon as you split it, it compromises the entire seal. As you install the seal and it pushes the rubber lip against the swivel ball, the split steel case will flex and you will not get the seal contact pressure you want.

If you say so, but the method has worked for me for over 35 years now. There is no sign that the metal case wants to move as you turn the wheel. maybe it is the steel ring that holds everything in place.

This is just a solution I pass along that works fine long term if done correctly. Everyone is free to choose their own method of replacing the seal and I do not advocate one way over the other.

[slowmo]

Thanks for the easier fix, TeriAnn! For my first go through on the swivel balls I'll do the complete tear down because I want to know how it all works, but when I need to do it again why not the easy way!

Now that I've actually been driving the Rover I have a couple of observations. Number 1: I'm 6'3" tall and if I sit up straight I am looking at the headliner, so I have to kind of slouch to see out the windshield. I can live with that because no way I am going on a long drive in the Rover because of Number 2: Going uphill it is so slow (I don't know how slow because of the InOp slowdometer) that I am in third gear at max RPM and the line of cars behind me is honking like mad. I mean I am going cement truck slow up the hill. I would install a Roverdrive, but I have a Koenig winch already using the PTO. I guess I have a choice to make there. Number 3: Everytime I drive the damn thing I am smiling.

My 59 TR3 is completely reliable. Of course that is after a lot of bloody knuckles. I no delusions of reliability with the Rover yet, for it seems that everytime I drive it something else makes itself important. The swivel balls leaking is a reliability issue to me because a leak will be a problem, but in the case of a Series Rover I realize some leaks are designed into the truck (like the shims on the speedo housing - no way that won't leak). I like to tackle issues before something is broken.

On the swivel ball issue...the steering and suspension seems very solid. No rattling, it drives straight down the road. This makes me think that the bearings, etc in the swivel ball assembly are good to go and that I am just in it for seals. Sound about right?

Thanks.
10792

[jac04]

If you say so ...

I'm just letting people know the way things really work, but I hate to ruin the discussion with facts.

[TeriAnn]

Now that I've actually been driving the Rover I have a couple of observations. Number 1: I'm 6'3" tall and if I sit up straight I am looking at the headliner, so I have to kind of slouch to see out the windshield.

There is not a whole lot you can do with an 88 unless you can figure out fitting a Defender windscreen and roof to your 88. The Defender windscreen is taller. With the 109 two door the behind the seat bulkhead is farther back so you can remove the back seat brackets and get the seat to recline more. makes a big difference.




that I am in third gear at max RPM and the line of cars behind me is honking like mad.

That's where an overdrive comes in. Third over is your friend. It is a gear about midway between third and fourth and is really handy when the engine cannot push fourth but has plenty of power for third. You can always sell the Koenig and buy an electric winch. By the way have you done a compression test and verified that both the vacuum and mechanical advances work? Another thing to do is have someone push the accelerator pedal to the floor and look to see if the linkage opens the carb all the way. Also, you are at altitude. Have a shop put a CO2 sniffer into your tail pipe to verify your air fuel mixture.

Could be your engine is not putting out the power it should. Or it could just be altitude.



Number 3: Everytime I drive the damn thing I am smiling.

Me too and I have been driving the silly thing for 38 years now.


My 59 TR3 is completely reliable.

10792

Mine too

10793

[lumpydog]

That's where an overdrive comes in. Third over is your friend. It is a gear about midway between third and fourth and is really handy when the engine cannot push fourth but has plenty of power for third.

Hadn't thought about using OD this way… Will try it out. I mainly use OD as a 5th gear so was shifting out of it as I approached the hill, and went down to fourth. Then downshifted again, to third if I ran out of steam. I'll try OD 3rd next time I'm climbing and 3rd is too low. Thanks for the tip.

[o2batsea]

An OD does not make your Series go faster.

[TeriAnn]

An OD does not make your Series go faster.

Well it does if and only if your engine has the power to push 4 over. Back in the days of yore when I had a 2.25L four and an overdrive my engine could push it OK down hill and with a tail wind but otherwise I had to drive with the throttle all the way open to do 65 in 4 over. Hard on fuel economy. And of course the slightest uphill grade and it was 4 under. But I learned to really love 3 over in the hills and into strong headwinds.

If I'd had a healthy 2.5L for over would have been more useful.

On the other hand 4 over in the TR3 really gives the roadster long highway wings. The TR3 has the power to weight ratio to take advantage of its overdrive top gear.

[o2batsea]

TAW, you should upgrade to this engine (http://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-427ci-crate-engine.html) in the 109.

[slowmo]

Good news for me. The swivel balls are quite smooth with no pitting. Since everything seems tight and it tracks straight I think I am in for just the seals. Of course the Forrest Gump in me will clean everything up so it looks like new. This little preventative maintenance project will happen sometime this summer.

Next up right now, is rechecking the fuel and ignition system. I checked the plugs (they were installed in December) and they tell me we are running rich. Cleaned them up and checked the gaps. Cleaned the points, reset and checked dwell angle. Good to go. Timing was a few degrees off. Now it's not. Vac advance checks OK. Adjusted the single barrel Weber carb (the carb and the intake manifold design is an area of weakness for these trucks-very poor fuel/air distribution). Set idle and mixture. Results: better acceleration but no better in hill climbing. If my tach is accurate I am pulling 3800-4000 RPM in third gear going 35 mph uphill (climbs 1500' in six miles to elevation of 6200'). Does this performance match others experience or should I keep looking for more power?

Also I will begin chasing electrons. None of the gauges or indicators are accurate.

[slowmo]

Old post resurrection. Did the first swivel ball (seals only) and I can certainly see TeriAnn's simplified fix will work perfectly. That's not what I did because I needed to see how the swivel is put together, but in the future I will use the simple method. Thanks.

[jcoleman]

Old post resurrection. Did the first swivel ball (seals only) and I can certainly see TeriAnn's simplified fix will work perfectly. That's not what I did because I needed to see how the swivel is put together, but in the future I will use the simple method. Thanks.

I'm getting ready to do mine--how much time should I budget for the full job?

[slowmo]

The first one took me about three hours. I work slowly and clean each part to look like new. The second one took a little less.

That said I had already removed (and cleaned) the brake backing plates, replaced the bearings, brakes etc. last December. If you haven't done any of that you'll be in for a bit more time. I would then budget one day to do the first one if you haven't been in there at all yet. Note how the top brake springs are connected (even take a pic). Everyone puts them on the wrong way the first time.

Usually the biggest delays are caused by forgetting to get one or more of the parts. Good luck!

[jcoleman]

The first one took me about three hours. I work slowly and clean each part to look like new. The second one took a little less.

That said I had already removed (and cleaned) the brake backing plates, replaced the bearings, brakes etc. last December. If you haven't done any of that you'll be in for a bit more time. I would then budget one day to do the first one if you haven't been in there at all yet. Note how the top brake springs are connected (even take a pic). Everyone puts them on the wrong way the first time.

Usually the biggest delays are caused by forgetting to get one or more of the parts. Good luck!

Great--Thanks for the feedback! Looking forward to one less puddle on the garage floor.