2.25 ignition timing but I see no notch on the pulley

[Hauser]

Ok, first post. I bought a nice running '73 series iii the other day and have been busy going through it. It's had a recently rebuilt engine with a couple thousand miles on it and seemed to be running well. Anyhow, while pulling the plugs I bumped the distributor which turned rather easily. The collar at the base wasn't very tight. So it turned and popped out. I put it back in and retightened the collar but am thinking I'll have to re-do the timing now (funny how small jobs turn into bigger ones!).

Problem is, I'm looking at the pulley and there's supposed to be a notch it it (I have the 3 pronged arm attached to the timing case). There is no notch. Since the engine is a rebuild (I think it was a swap in, not a rebuild of the original) I have no idea what's going on with it. The serial number is hard to read but I think it points to a 3 bearing engine out of an air portable rover. Any ideas how I can go about setting the timing? I'll attach a pic of the pulley. I have the belt off because I was replacing it too. I can crank it over easily by hand since all the plugs are out and can feel the vacuum and pressure cycles on the first cylinder by holding my thumb over the spark plug hole.

I'm thinking I could find top dead center by removing the valve cover and turning it over by hand until both intake and exhaust valves are closed and then marking the pulley at the spot where it lines up with the timing marks. I'm not certain that'd work and I REALLY don't want to have to take the valve cover off. This all seems moot especially when the marks are supposed to be of limited use anyway. What if I just guess TDC using the finger over plug hole method and if it runs then twist the distributor with it running until it runs right. Then test drive under load and adjust as necessary. If it doesn't run then turn the engine over by hand and try again (on the assumption that I've got the timing off by 180 degrees and attempting to spark the exhaust stroke rather than the compression stroke).

Thoughts and opinions? I've heard of people using vacuum gauges as well but am not clear how that is done, would that work in this situation? The last time I set the timing on a car was probably 15 years ago so I'm a bit rusty. I do have the green bible, of course, but it's not of much use if I don't have any marks on the pulley.

Edited to update: I pulled the cap off the distributor and found a little black box/plug that says "pertronix" on it. It appears to be the pertronix replacement for the points (which is nice - the reason I bought this car is largely because all the little things from overdrive to parabolic springs to 3 point harnesses had been done and here is another example). I don't suppose this affects the procedure for setting the timing though but I also noticed the distributor has a knurled knob on the side opposite the vacuum advance assembly, the side facing the front of the truck. The green book says this may be for fine tuning the timing but doesn't go into great detail.

11977

[cedryck]

Hi, I like where you are going with finding top dead center and then making your own notch. I suppose you could replace the existing pulley with one that has a notch. Seems like it would make future work much easier.

[lumpydog]

The notch is helpful to understand how many degrees advanced or retarded you are BUT, it's really just a reference. At the end of the day, you can set the timing by feel, sight or sound without the notch... So don't let it stop you from resetting the timing and getting some driving in.

Me, I like having the reference point. The method you describe to find TDC would work - a straw in the spark plug hole would show the top of the stroke as well... You can then mark or cut a notch in the pulley. Be careful not to lose anything into the plug hole.

Congrats on the purchase! More pictures when you can. Also - pertronix electronic ignition is a bonus.

[whitehillbilly64]

Not a little square covering the back of the motor, and the timing marks are on the flywheel, I have a spare motor with this set up, not sure of date it changed to mark on front pulley.

Whitehillbilly

[cedryck]

Not a little square covering the back of the motor, and the timing marks are on the flywheel, I have a spare motor with this set up, not sure of date it changed to mark on front pulley.

Whitehillbilly

Yes good point, you can find timing marks on the flywheel, but you will need the "pointer" for that window to make sure you are set up right.

[lumpydog]

Later models, mark = pulley.... this is a 73... I believe there is no such window at that point

[Hauser]

Ok, so I got it running pretty well. Seems to run a bit better and actually quieter than it did before. I used a long straw and marked it right around top dead center while cranking the engine over with the crank. I then cranked it a few more times feeling for pressure and when I had pressure I inserted the straw and cranked carefully until the mark on the straw lined up with the spark plug hole (thereby indicating top dead center). I didn't bother to mark the crank because this was pretty simple and would seem to be about as accurate as the timing marks. I then verified that the distributor rotator arm was pointed at the contact for #1 cylinder. From there I started it and rotated the distributor forwards and backwards while listening to the engine (advancing the timing gets a faster idle and retarding it slows it). I settled in on a spot that sounded good then went and revved it and found it stumbling and missing a bit so I backed it off some and tried again. Seemed to run well so I tightened down the collar on the distributor and took it for a test run. It runs good and is quieter than it was before. Makes me wonder if it was knocking although the plugs I pulled looked perfect and brown (no damage) - autolite 66s which are a heat range or two warmer than stock. Anyhow, I'm writing this out for posterity so others can see how I managed it.

I do have a question though. I've done all the other oils but the engine oil. I figured that one would've been changed most regularly. Anyhow, I'm looking at the engine and don't see a fill valve anywhere. The manual and some video I saw had a obvious fill port on the front of the valve cover. I don't have it, just a black breather cap and 3 nuts that I suppose hold the valve cover on. I've also got a breather and neck on the passenger/right hand side of the engine. Is the neck/breather on engine block is a suitable place to add oil or should I be dumping it into the valve cover?

[lumpydog]

Hauser - not sure what you mean by breather. See the picture below for the red-circled traditional position of the oil filler neck (you may have this with an un-labeled cap?). On some 2.25s that oil filler neck does not exist and the port is covered with a blanking cover. Where that is the case, the engine usually has an orange cap/filling point on the valve cover.

In absence of the passenger-side filler neck (red circle in picture) - you should be able to remove the breather cap on the valve cover and fill from there.

11980

P.S. Great job getting the timing set be sound/feel. The general idea is to do exactly what you did. Get the spark advanced to the point where the engine is smooth and knock is minimized under load.

[slowmo]

Jebus. That pic is one nice restoration.

[lumpydog]

Thanks! That's mine :)

[cedryck]

Jebus. That pic is one nice restoration.

I will second that, one very nice clean engine bay, truck, Landrover!

[whitehillbilly64]

Re timing mark.
Just thought I would mention the notch is on the inner part of the pulley.
Lovely looking engine bay.

Whb

[Hauser]

lumpydog, on mine I have a breather cap like what's on the valve cover although the one on the valve cover has a screw that presses against the neck and holds it on. The oil filler one has prongs on the inside of it that, when you put the cap on the tube, press against the tube and sort of hold it on loosely. There aren't any threads or anything on the stalk that could be used to secure a cap like what I'm seeing in that pic. I really need to visit the local rover mechanics who did put the rebuilt engine in this thing, they're supposed to be pretty knowledgeable and helpful or so I've been told.

WHB,
I ran my finger around the inside and outside edges looking and didn't find anything. The timing mark arm also isn't very close to the pulley at all which makes me doubt that I could very accurately gauge the timing that way anyway. I'll admit, it did take me a bit before I thought of trying the backside of the pulley, why they'd put the notch there instead of on the face is beyond me.


I'll also third the comments on that engine bay lumpydog. Many that is clean! You must have done a frame off restoration. I think my truck is pretty mechanically sound for a 40 year old truck but it's definitely a driver with a fair bit of cosmetic rust (steering box, small holes on the floor boards, and some mild rust on the door corners) but, importantly, no rust on the frame outriggers or the area where the bulkhead and doors meet. Any idea how expensive it is to have someone put in new footwells? I do alright mechanically but I cannot weld.

[stomper]

This spring, I took the whole front clip off my Rover to sand blast and repaint the Radiator panel, and do a refresh of the engine bay. while I was there, I discovered my passenger footwell was much more crusty than I had realized. I too had no welding experience, no bodywork experience, and was daunted by the task. I assure you, it is not that difficult to do a footwell replace. I gave myself 3 weeks of working weekends and some week nights, and the end result came out great. It is expensive to buy a Mig welder with a proper gas set-up, but it truly is an investment with these older trucks. You can learn on old scrap metal in a matter of hours, and watching youtube videos to be somewhat proficient. Buy a spot weld cutter, some tin snips, order up the replacement panel from our hosts, and fire up the grinder! If you don't want to invest in the welder, there are companies that will do that piece of the job for you, but I say give it a go!

[lumpydog]

The oil filler one has prongs on the inside of it that, when you put the cap on the tube, press against the tube and sort of hold it on loosely.

Yup - pop that off and fill away. There is your primary oil fill.

The cap does not sound to be consistent with a 73 though - where the oil system was closed and ventilated back into the air intake/carb. The cap should look more like the one in my picture...

[whitehillbilly64]

This is the spare engine I picked up with the push on filler cap.
It shows the square timing cover at the rear, near fuel pump.
I think you may have this type of motor.
Hope its of some help. Took a while to find the pics.

whitehillbilly

[Hauser]

WHB,
That's it! That is what my engine looks like. I looked closely and there is a view hole on the back, I'm missing the cover, in fact! I suppose I should get a new one. It's quite hard to see from the top, the fuel pump is right in the way. Thanks for all the help!

[whitehillbilly64]

Good News. :thumb-up:
I am in Australia, but will keep my open for a cover.
Know where one maybe sitting, but may take me a couple of weeks to look.
Will send it overseas to you if I can get one, and you have trouble sourcing one.
Let me know.

whitehillbilly.