My 73 Series 3 Project

[ninescorpions]

*This original post gets updated when one or more of the original issues is resolved. Resolutions are listed in green

Sup guys,
I have posted on here a couple of times, but was still waiting to get my Rover out of surgery (73 88 2 1/4). I got her back a couple of weeks ago and immediately took the wheels to sand blast/powder coat. While that was in process, I started working on some of the minor surgery related items I felt I could tackle. Below is a list of what the shop did and what I did, as well as what is still not working, not right, or even unknown. My local shop had the main priority of getting the engine running and bare minimal items for it to roll/drive. Part of this thread is I want to share my project with you all. The second half is that I am always looking for input or the knowledge I am lacking in certain areas. I will make multiple replies to this thread for different parts of the project. Key here is that this Rover sat in a garage for 20 years untouched (which was both good and bad). My grandfather bought this Landy around 1980 as a lakeside/farm use type vehicle. So no care was taken on road specific needs such as mirrors, speedo, seat belts, signal lights...you name it. So there was a lot of basic stuff required just to get off the ground. My goal is to return the Landy to a daily driver status to honor him and my cousin (both of which are passed). My cousin and I had great times driving this around when we were teenagers. Every time I get behind the wheel, the feel and the smell turns it into a time capsule.

Performed by my local trustworthy shop:
-Purged gas tank
-New spark plugs
-New carb
-New clutch master cylinder one (original one missing)
-Replace brake servo assembly
-Replace Brake master cylinder
-Replace radiator hoses
-Replace heater control valve
-Replace thermostat
-Replace fuel lines
-Replace starter motor
-Replace heater hoses
-Replace brake shoes / springs
-Refurb all four corners (hub seals, axle shaft seals, etc)
-Replace exhaust piping / muffler
-All fluids
-Replace battery

Performed by me (after surgery exit):
-Replace all four shocks (standard shocks)
-Replace all four brake drums
-Replace both rear check straps (one was already broken)
-Rewired a new horn switch (not sure where that has gone bad...assumption is the wand)
-Installed 3 point reel seat belt kits in front (some fabrication required)
-Installed missing bolts for rear seat belts
-Replaced indicator bulbs that were out
-Replaced turn indicator flasher unit (switching the wand would have the lights come on, but stay on solid)
-Send 5 wheels, lug nuts, and other odds and ends to powder coat (wheels to color RAL1015, lugs and other bits to gloss black)
-Purchased 5 Firestone Destination M/T 235/75/15 (my Rover has 15" stock rims which seems to be the minority)
-Drilled out a sheared off bolt in the hood (that is for the spare tire mount). Was unable to extract it.
-Buffed out existing paint with compound (body is pretty rough, but looks way better than when I got it)

Not working / next up
-Tail lights...I somehow killed these while fixing the flasher relay in the dash...yaaahhh (fixed - broken wires out of RR frame)
-Speedometer (obvious reason...no cable!) (found cable, but cable is broken. Need a new one!) Open issue
-Find root cause of horn issue Open issue
-Speedometer backlight is out (found ground wire disconnected from its ground connection...also fixed no interior light)
-Interior light is out (see above)
-Fabricate rear door interior panel (original one is pretty bad off)
-Upgrade headlights to low amperage LED's Open upgrade
-Hazard relay...currently I do not have hazards (hazards now working after new alternator and wiring)
-Fabricate spare tire mount for bonnet (I assume my tire will not work with original kit (even if it did, the sheared off bolt in the port means I have to fabricate something) (completed...see in my subsequent posts)
-Fully clean out cab and install some basic rubber floor mats to avoid further damage (I have a dog) Open upgrade
-Rear door lock not working (both front doors working fine) Open issue
-Window locks for rear windows (front work fine) Open issue
-Multiple leaks (rear diff; back of tranny; sump) Open issue
-Massive rust/material clogging up fuel filters (fuel tank was a rust bucket. Replaced with a new one along with a new sender and mounting hardware)
-Charge light is lit all the time (alternator needed to be replaced and wiring was also replaced)

Not working quite right...I assume...
-Tranny pops out of 2nd gear; extremely difficult to downshift without grinding into any gear Open issue
-Right front wheel has some friction (not fully free wheel). Not sure if 4x4 or hub related...I believe hub) Bearings were shot...LF was seized. RF was coming apart.
-Doors close, but are not closed...well they are not flush to the body
-Heater works, but when it is 20 degrees like it was today, I could not tell it was on. I am not expecting miracles, but I think it is not up to par as it was back in the day
-Backfiring (with sudden loss of power, but returns to normal very fast). This is more noticeable when engine is cold. Open issue
-Sponge brake pedal after the Rovers sits for a while. Must pump several times to get brake. Springs were incorrectly installed. This was fixed.
-Front brakes have way too much drag on the drums (need to manually compress trailing shoe just to get drum on). Replaced flex hoses and bled MC. This was fixed, but is still be evaluated for long term.

Questions
-Why is the hazard relay / circuity not in the schematics? or am I reading it wrong?
-How slow are your signal indicators...mine are mega slooooow (slow signals solved with new alternator and wiring)
-Do you have to pump your brake pedal after the Rover has sat for a while to build pressure (found that the upper brake shoe spring was connected to both shoes. It should only be connected to the rear shoe and the front connects to the backing plate).
-Is everyone double clutching? (not required for series 3)

Additions
-Side mirrors installed
-Install tachometer (install in progress)
-Fire extinguisher installed
-Tool box with as many spare tools as possible (including Rover specific tools)
-Low fuel light (install in progress)
-Supplement fuse box (install in progress)
-Under hood LED lighting (install in progress)

The two pics below show the day I got it and then how it looks right now. I need to take some photos of all the installs I have done...I will add more in the coming days. Looking forward to any and all feedback!

[ninescorpions]

Before and after on the rims. I went around and around. Upgrade to 16"? Spray paint the 15"s? Powder Coat? What color code? I ended up powder coating my stock 15" with RAL1015. From what I can see, they are the only rims that do not have the slots in them. All 16" rims have ports of some sort. I wanted to stay stock...so there they are. Very happy with the results.

[ninescorpions]

Some shots of the shocks, brake drums, and check straps before/after

[ninescorpions]

So here you can see how much of a difference made just using some buffing compound on the body panels. Far from great, but way better!

[ninescorpions]

Here is where the sheared off bolt is...there is only about an inch of bolt stuck in there (not protruding on either side). I already drilled a hole in it...it is one with the Rover now.

[ninescorpions]

235/75/15 Firestone Destination M/T

[ninescorpions]

Here she is in my garage during repairs.

[cnfowler]

Looks great so far. You've done lots of work. Did you buff it by hand or machine? Noticed the Meguiar's Ultimate Compound in the background.


Colin

[lumpydog]

Questions
-Why is the hazard relay / circuity not in the schematics? or am I reading it wrong?
-How slow are your signal indicators...mine are mega slooooow
-Do you have to pump your brake pedal after the Rover has sat for a while to build pressure (on-going discussion with my mechanic)
-Is everyone double clutching?


Great work so far! Truck looks fantastic and the patina/paint are perfect.

Have you purchased the Green Bible? Also a parts catalog? Both are good to have on hand if you like to do your own work (which it looks like you do). Links to electronic versions: http://www.landroverweb.com/landrover/pdf-land-rover-manuals/

The Hazard, Oil Pressure Gauge and Heater wiring schemas are not in the standard manuals as they are US spec/specific items. I think I've stumbled across wiring schemas for these but one way to get them is to find a copy of a US Spec Series 3 Owners Manual - the smaller book that originally came with your truck. There was usually a US supplement that had wiring schemas specific to this market. Someone here may have one and can take a picture of the pages you need. There is a topic on this here (http://forums.roversnorth.com/showthread.php?11092-Looking-for-a-USA-manual-for-wiring&highlight=Heater+wiring) and here (http://forums.roversnorth.com/showthread.php?10383-Missing-Heater-Blower-Wiring-diagram). Also - see image below (which is from an international site - it may help but might not be the same as the NADA setup).

For the signal indicators, sounds like you may need a new flasher unit. It should be part number 502096 and Can be found here (https://pangolin4x4.com/item/635) (it looks like our forum hosts do not carry). But double check here as I'm not entirely familiar with how the series 3 turn signal works.

Regarding pumping the brakes - you should not have to do that. Generally it means you have a leak in the system or have air trapped in the brake circuit. Bleed your brakes using the process described in the workshop manual to get the air bubbles out. It takes a few people (one to pump the brake and the other to open/close the bleeder valve). There are other ways to do this solo if you search - but my guess is air trapped in the system still.

With a Series 3 you should not need to double clutch. It's a fully synched gearbox. BUT, given that the truck sat for so long, it will take time for the gears to work back in and for the new oil fill to work around. Hopefully you drained and then filled the gearbox with new EP90 (see below). The best cure here is driving it. Double clutching won't hurt, while the gears wear back in.

Given that your truck sat for 20 years (mine sat for about 18):
- Look very hard at anything rubber and expect to replace it (you've tackled a lot already!). I'd replace the three flex hoses in your brake system as well. Two at front tires and one just before the rear diff.
- Expect gaskets and seals to leak over time as lack of use will dry them up. Watch for leaks and trace them to their source. This will be a battle initially but you can track them down and stop (most) of them with patience.
- Wiring gremlins will exist and you will need to chase them down. A multimeter is your friend. Consider replacing the voltage stabilizer with an electronic one (http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=79498). Consider using electronic ignition instead of points. Your side/front turn signals are missing. I think replacements can be found... My turn signal is pretty normal click, click.... click, click and not slow like you describe.
- Drain and refill EVERYTHING (engine oil, gearbox, transfer case, diffs, steering box, steering relay, swivel balls, overdrive if you have one). Use good EP90. Don't just top off existing fluids. Especially true wth the radiator - flush it out a few times. Fill/drain/fill. Don't trust any existing fluids. Make sure you use DOT4 GLMA brake fluid.

Some other things you point out:
- The heaters in these trucks were not that effective to begin with. You could put a new matrix/core into the heater box - or pull the existing core out of the heater box and have a radiator shop recondition. I put a NOS core in mine and it made a difference - it puts out a LOT of heat now. As mentioned, completely flush the radiator system.
- Shifting: You could (bigger project) pull the floor boards and transmission tunnel cover and check the detent balls and springs and also look at the reverse gate springs. The detent balls push into the gear selector shafts and stop the shifter at the right place for each gear. They may need lubrication and/or replacement. The reverse gate simply puts pressure on the stick when you shift in reverse. It uses two springs. All parts needed for this job are offered by our hosts - this is not a terribly difficult job beyond getting the floor board fixings to back off if they have not been in a while.
- Right front wheel - friction could be the brake shoe. Have you tried backing off the brake adjuster bolt for that wheel? Friction causes heat - after driving feel around the tire bolts. Hot? Brake adjuster too tight. Feel the hub. Hot? Time to service the hub. Jacking up the one tire and spinning it can usually give you an audible clue as well.
- My doors don't close flush either. Many other examples don't. Usually because a new rubber door seal has been installed and it may not leave enough room to close all the way so the PO adjusted the door latch out. You can adjust the door latch on the B-pillar and move it in to see if that helps.
- That pie plate/hood spare mount. I'd drill out the 10 rivets and get a replacement. They can be found. Easy to pop-rivet back in a new one. You may be able to salvage it once it's out and more accessible. Either way, a Rover isn't a Rover without a tire on the hood :-)

These trucks like to be driven - she'll wear back in with some good driving. Welcome to the club!

P.S. Beautiful garage/barn you lucky dog.


Warning - this image is from a non-NADA truck and may be different than your setup.
12142

[ninescorpions]

Looks great so far. You've done lots of work. Did you buff it by hand or machine? Noticed the Meguiar's Ultimate Compound in the background.


Colin

By hand...that Meguiars compound works very well (at least in my case).

[ninescorpions]

Great work so far! Truck looks fantastic and the patina/paint are perfect.

Have you purchased the Green Bible? Also a parts catalog? Both are good to have on hand if you like to do your own work (which it looks like you do). Links to electronic versions: http://www.landroverweb.com/landrover/pdf-land-rover-manuals/



I have purchased the owners workshop manual (is this considered the green bible?). I also got the Restoration manual from Haynes.

[ninescorpions]

The Hazard, Oil Pressure Gauge and Heater wiring schemas are not in the standard manuals as they are US spec/specific items. I think I've stumbled across wiring schemas for these but one way to get them is to find a copy of a US Spec Series 3 Owners Manual - the smaller book that originally came with your truck. There was usually a US supplement that had wiring schemas specific to this market. Someone here may have one and can take a picture of the pages you need. There is a topic on this here (http://forums.roversnorth.com/showthread.php?11092-Looking-for-a-USA-manual-for-wiring&highlight=Heater+wiring) and here (http://forums.roversnorth.com/showthread.php?10383-Missing-Heater-Blower-Wiring-diagram). Also - see image below. Was able to dig this up and think it solves your problem.
12142

About to read into those other threads. I see in that schematic that the flasher relay has four connections. My flasher relay (and the replacement I bought) only have two connections. Is there a different relay with 4? There are two relays behind my dash...I assumed one was turn signals and the other was hazards. Or am I wrong? Here is what I recently installed, although as stated before my turn signals are very slow. I think something is still a miss with my hazard wiring: http://www.roversnorth.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PLF352

[ninescorpions]

For the signal indicators, sounds like you may need a new flasher unit. It should be part number 502096 and Can be found here (https://pangolin4x4.com/item/635) (it looks like our forum hosts do not carry). But double check here as I'm not entirely familiar with how the series 3 turn signal works.



I had to call to find the flasher...did not find it on a search at Rovers North. The one I installed was http://www.roversnorth.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PLF352. I installed it to one relay first, but this caused my hazards to start working (but very dim). Then I assumed that the other relay was actually for the turn signals. I swapped that one out and now my turn signals work. I am pretty sure that other relay needs to be replaced...I need to call to see what it is. The two relays are dimensionally different...so am sure they are not the same. I have to open the dash again this week...and I will get some pictures. I was never able to get any voltage on them, but I was limited to testing because the truck was on blocks and did not have it in a mode to run. Now that it touches the ground again, I can let it idle while I trouble shoot the relay voltages as I use the hazards and turn signals.

[ninescorpions]

Regarding pumping the brakes - you should not have to do that. Generally it means you have a leak in the system or have air trapped in the brake circuit. Bleed your brakes using the process described in the workshop manual to get the air bubbles out. It takes a few people (one to pump the brake and the other to open/close the bleeder valve). There are other ways to do this solo if you search - but my guess is air trapped in the system still.



I will get to re-bleeding the brakes. It was done by the shop, but cannot hurt to do it again.

[ninescorpions]

With a Series 3 you should not need to double clutch. It's a fully synched gearbox. BUT, given that the truck sat for so long, it will take time for the gears to work back in and for the new oil fill to work around. Hopefully you drained and then filled the gearbox with new EP90 (see below). The best cure here is driving it. Double clutching won't hurt, while the gears wear back in.



Roger that...I will confirm with the shop that the transmission oil was drained and filled. I assume so, but you never know :)

[ninescorpions]

Your side/front turn signals are missing. I think replacements can be found...



I see them in drawings and even on Rovers North website drawings, but it is never called out as an actual lighting component to buy. Would like to get them...the wires are there under the fender...someone just decided to cut them (for the life of me I have no idea why).

[ninescorpions]

- Right front wheel - friction could be the brake shoe. Have you tried backing off the brake adjuster bolt for that wheel? Friction causes heat - after driving feel around the tire bolts. Hot? Brake adjuster too tight. Feel the hub. Hot? Time to service the hub. Jacking up the one tire and spinning it can usually give you an audible clue as well.



I first noticed this when replacing the brake drum. I am pretty sure (not 100%) that I sensed the friction even with the drum off. I had adjusted the new brake shoes all the way in (only slight friction at point of the 360 rotation...clear audible indicator). Now I have driven it for about 15 miles...I will jack it up and do a spin test again. If I am still getting friction, I will do a decent drive and then test heat levels as you have suggested to try and pin point.

[ninescorpions]

- That pie plate/hood spare mount. I'd drill out the 10 rivets and get a replacement. They can be found. Easy to pop-rivet back in a new one. You may be able to salvage it once it's out and more accessible. Either way, a Rover isn't a Rover without a tire on the hood :-)



100% agree! My dad does not agree with putting the spare on the hood since it limits visibility. But I told him the same thing you said. It is a key trademark for this vehicle. I will start looking for a pie plate...however in the short term I have worked up my own homemade solution to solve it. The small rubber bumpers are simply too low to work for a larger tire (and keep the tire from touching the hood). So I bought some larger rubber stoppers and drilled through them. I fabricated a mounting bracket. Do you know if the original spares were mounted with the face or the inside of the rim on top? I opt'ed to put the the face of the rim on the bottom because it means I can bracket it much closer to the hood (ie shorter bolts). I will post some pics of my install once completely done (in process now).

[ninescorpions]

These trucks like to be driven - she'll wear back in with some good driving. Welcome to the club!

P.S. Beautiful garage/barn you lucky dog.



Thanks a lot brother...and thanks for taking the time with your details response and tips. It is greatly appreciated! I am using my Grandpa's garage (which is big enough to put two full size dump trucks in). The Rover was also his before he passed. I find it a great honor to work on his old Rover in his garage. I got a feeling he might be looking over my shoulder from time to time ;) My whole goal was to get the Rover running so I can take my Grandma out on a drive. And it looks like we will be doing that this coming Christmas week.

[lumpydog]

I have purchased the owners workshop manual (is this considered the green bible?). I also got the Restoration manual from Haynes.

That's the one! Great resource and spells out how to get most jobs completed.


About to read into those other threads. I see in that schematic that the flasher relay has four connections. My flasher relay (and the replacement I bought) only have two connections. Is there a different relay with 4? There are two relays behind my dash...I assumed one was turn signals and the other was hazards. Or am I wrong? Here is what I recently installed, although as stated before my turn signals are very slow. I think something is still a miss with my hazard wiring: http://www.roversnorth.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PLF352

The schematic I posted admittedly may be inaccurate. I'll edit my post to qualify that I pulled it from an international site that may use a different flasher setup. I think your best bet is to post a separate thread here asking if someone else can post or explain the wiring for a NADA Series 3 hazard setup. I have a Series 2a, so this one was a harder for me to help you with. I'd agree that your wiring is probably off. Also - that flasher unit you linked to has only two terminals - vs three. Confirm with other Series 3 owners that the flasher unit is correct (it may very well be! But, double check).


I will get to re-bleeding the brakes. It was done by the shop, but cannot hurt to do it again.

With regard to re-bleading - the Green Bible is pretty good idea to review here. You need a clear tube that fits very snugly over the bleeder valve. Run it to a jelly jar with brake fluid already in it so the end is submerged. Open the valve and have someone pump the brake to the bottom of the brake's reach and then tighten the valve before the assistant releases the brake, Then have the person pump again while you open the valve and then tighten the valve while your assistant holds at the bottom stroke. Do this until no bubbles come out. Start from the furthest tire from the reservoir and work to the closest. You will need to stop and refill the reservoir with fresh fluid so you don't reintroduce air into the system if it emptys. The bleeder valves can sometimes re-introduce air into the the outflow tube as brake fluid exits and make it look like there is air still in the system - those will be tiny bubbles vs the bigger ones that will come out when you bleed air out of the actual system. One way to stop this is to pull the bleeder valve out and wrap the threads 4-5 wraps with plumber's white thread tape (don't cover the valve hole!). I did this to mine and now only air from the system is expelled, making it dead simple to see when they are bled properly. Final note (important!) - make sure your repair shop used DOT4 GLMA. Pick some up for yourself as well (http://www.roversnorth.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=LMA12). I like 12oz bottles because brake fluid has a shelf life once opened and you don't end up wasting too much of what is not used. When your done, the brakes should be hard/firm and stay hard/firm when left for 30 minutes. They should not get more hard/firm when you pump them in use. There are other ways to bleed brakes without an assistant - but this is the basic method. Be warned - brake fluid eats paint - quickly. Don't let it get on that paint/patina!


Roger that...I will confirm with the shop that the transmission oil was drained and filled. I assume so, but you never know :)

Also - make sure they used EP90 Gear oil (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000M8RYMC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). Rover is specific about the type here because of the types of metals (brass/bronze/"yellow metals") used in the gearbox. Use the link I sent you to get some that you can use to top off - it's used in the Gearbox, Transfer Case, Steering Relay, Steering Box, Both Diffs and the Swivel Balls (and overdrive if you have one) - so you will use this stuff a lot! Also - get a pump (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002M589TA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1).


I see them in drawings and even on Rovers North website drawings, but it is never called out as an actual lighting component to buy. Would like to get them...the wires are there under the fender...someone just decided to cut them (for the life of me I have no idea why).

Try calling Ike at Pangolin4x4 (google it) - he should be able to source a set for you. This page has links to an electronic version (http://www.seriesdiesellandrover.com/pdf's.html) of the parts manual (and service manual) so you can easily get part numbers. Unfortunately - the side marker lights that are missing are a NADA (North American Dollar Area) only part and are not listed. They look like this:

12143


I first noticed this when replacing the brake drum. I am pretty sure (not 100%) that I sensed the friction even with the drum off. I had adjusted the new brake shoes all the way in (only slight friction at point of the 360 rotation...clear audible indicator). Now I have driven it for about 15 miles...I will jack it up and do a spin test again. If I am still getting friction, I will do a decent drive and then test heat levels as you have suggested to try and pin point.

It can take time for new brake shoes to wear in and it is not uncommon at all to hear them scuff a little when new. As you said drive and check. It should subside over time. The workshop manual does a good job of describing brake shoe adjustment.


100% agree! My dad does not agree with putting the spare on the hood since it limits visibility. But I told him the same thing you said. It is a key trademark for this vehicle. I will start looking for a pie plate...however in the short term I have worked up my own homemade solution to solve it. The small rubber bumpers are simply too low to work for a larger tire (and keep the tire from touching the hood). So I bought some larger rubber stoppers and drilled through them. I fabricated a mounting bracket. Do you know if the original spares were mounted with the face or the inside of the rim on top? I opt'ed to put the the face of the rim on the bottom because it means I can bracket it much closer to the hood (ie shorter bolts). I will post some pics of my install once completely done (in process now).

Screw your pop. Tire goes on the hood - this is the law really. Tire should be valve-side (face) down. When you call Ike about the marker lights, ask him if he has a spare pie plate - offer to swap yours for it. I'm betting he could also likely salvage your and get the old bolt out and/or re-tap the threads.


Thanks a lot brother...and thanks for taking the time with your details response and tips. It is greatly appreciated! I am using my Grandpa's garage (which is big enough to put two full size dump trucks in). The Rover was also his before he passed. I find it a great honor to work on his old Rover in his garage. I got a feeling he might be looking over my shoulder from time to time ;) My whole goal was to get the Rover running so I can take my Grandma out on a drive. And it looks like we will be doing that this coming Christmas week.

Happy to help - others here are too. Try to do as much work as you can yourself - especially with a garage like your granfather's available. Nothing against service stations/garages, but they generally don't understand the nuances of these old rigs unless they specialize in old British-built cars. Based on the fact they could not bleed your brakes properly, I'm guessing they are not entirely familiar with older vehicles like yours. Research projects before you jump in. Ask questions on forums like this. Try to get the parts you need on hand before you start. It's pretty easy/fun/satisfying doing the work yourself and you will be secure in the knowledge that the job was done right!

Also - that truck is in beautiful shape for its age. It's rare to find one with really nice patina like that - the original faded paint. Purists will tell you to keep it as is (I agree). Good on ya for keeping the original 15s. I'm also of the "keep it original" philosophy. It's something that is very hard to accomplish unless you find a truck like yours that sat for years - or was with the same owner for a long time - or both. That's a great/original example you have there - primarily due to the fact that it was parked for half its life.

[lumpydog]

I think I found the wiring diagram for a NADA Series 3 with Hazards

Here is the diagram (http://www.lrfaq.org/Series/images/lfig147.gif)
And here is the diagram key (http://www.lrfaq.org/Series/images/l147key.gif)

[ninescorpions]

I think I found the wiring diagram for a NADA Series 3 with Hazards

Here is the diagram (http://www.lrfaq.org/Series/images/lfig147.gif)
And here is the diagram key (http://www.lrfaq.org/Series/images/l147key.gif)

Thanks man. Now I am really scratching my head...there is no two prong relay in that schematic. I think the next logical step for me is to remove the hazard switch assembly...I got a feeling something is wrong there. I was able to solve my tail light issue. Found a partially broken wire out of the frame at the RR fender well.

Now I find that the alternator is not charging the battery...and the indicator light on the dash agrees. Odd thing is that all schematics call for dual power lines from the alternator to the solenoid. I assume this is to carry the needed current (rather than having one large wire). However my alternator only have one power wire connected to it. When the engine is running and even rev'ed up, the voltage on the battery (new battery) does not go up, so pretty clear there is no charge. Any particular reason why you can not run one large wire from the alternator to the battery directly and not to the solenoid? Sorry, different topic...but this one has my Rover stuck (unlike the other issues).

[ninescorpions]

Posting some more pics of the progress. Close up shot of the powder coated rims and powder coated lug nuts. Well worth it.

[ninescorpions]

RN does not have the LH seat belt bracket, so I just made one. Took a while to get it where I needed it, but gets the job done now.

[ninescorpions]

I bought the three point seat belt kit with reels. Good news is that kit comes with multiple brackets assuming you may have a different mounting angle. I used the pre-drilled holes on the backwall and brackets that came with the kit to mount the reels. I needed to mold them to the angle needed. And for the buckles, I used the L brackets from the kit since they simply would not work otherwise.

[ninescorpions]

Here is my homemade solution to the bolt that was sheared off in the pie plate. I drilled a hole through the bolt and used two galvanized bolts with a fabricated braket to go across the rim to secure it. When I first mounted the tire, the factory rubber stoppers were barely making contact with the tire. So I opt'ed to get some large rubber stoppers, drilled the center out for the bolt and washer. Then I cut the top to an angle so the tire can rest comfortable on the stoppers with about 1/4" clearance off the hood.

[ninescorpions]

Found out why my tail lights were working intermittently. The tail lamp wiring was partially broken coming out of the frame and the rubber grommet was out of place. Fixed up the wiring and got the grommet back into place.

[SafeAirOne]

Those rims look awesome!

RN might not have lower seat belt anchors, but other vendors do. Call Ike. Call Trevor. p/n 345101.

[ninescorpions]

Those rims look awesome!

RN might not have lower seat belt anchors, but other vendors do. Call Ike. Call Trevor. p/n 345101.

Yeah, I was surprised at how good the rims came out. Had no problem giving them my money...lol. As for the bracket, I am sourcing a factory one, but I went ahead and did that because I had nothing. I really wanted to keep the factory seat belts, but the buckles had seen better days...felt better with a new kit.

[Les Parker]

I have a couple of the used brackets (LH and RH) as these now come embedded on the new Defender seat belts.
Pay the postage and they are yours.

[ninescorpions]

I have a couple of the used brackets (LH and RH) as these now come embedded on the new Defender seat belts.
Pay the postage and they are yours.

Awesome! PM sent Les!

[Les Parker]

You need this for the LH Door mirror, plus the top door hinge :-

http://www.roversnorth.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=MTC50834

and

http://www.roversnorth.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PLI764&type=0

Both currently in stock

[ninescorpions]

You need this for the LH Door mirror, plus the top door hinge :-

http://www.roversnorth.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=MTC50834

and

http://www.roversnorth.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PLI764&type=0

Both currently in stock

Thanks for the links. I have the hinge with the plate for the mirror. I am only missing the cylinder that the rod goes into. I would like to avoid paying for the whole assembly only to use the cylinder. I am going for the original look and my RH already has the orginal rod as well. Ike thinks he may have one...waiting to hear back. If I don't find one before long..I will have no choice. Will the rod listed on RN work with the cylinder from that aftermarket mirror kit?

[ninescorpions]

So on to the next major challenge...fuel. Since I got the beast running, she has been spitting up rust and various material from the fuel tank. We had two fuel filters installed in hopes of cleaning it out. But it just wasn't happening. It would run clean for a few miles and then out of no where, total blockage and stall. Today we pulled the gas tank to take a peek. The floater has started to breakdown. The shell of it is breaking apart and is being sucked up. On top of that, the tank itself is covered in rust which is also being sucked up little by little. I will get some pictures of it tomorrow...but went ahead and pulled the trigger on a new tank, gaskets, etc. I still might try to recover the old one, but felt better with a new one. I am still going to coat the tank when I get the new one. I think the new sender has a low fuel sender on it...and if so that will be cool to get online.

Also got some motor and tranny mounts coming...I read a lot of positive things about vibration reduction with new mounts. My LR vibrates like a tin can. At the right idle RPM...the temperature gauge goes bonkers. Mirrors shaking like crazy. I hope the new mounts will help that...and they are pretty inexpensive...so worth a shot.

[lumpydog]

Take a look at the fuel draw tube as well. There is supposed to be a mesh "sock" on the end that screens out debris. Sounds like this may be missing as well. That's the first line of defense. Second in the fuel bowl - I'm sure you've pulled and cleaned it. The third line of defense is the in-line fuel filter, which is sounds like you've been using.

When installing your new tank, be sure to use the two rubber grommets that are sandwiched on the single, rear tank bolt/mount. These are important to making sure the tank mounts can flex - vs cracking the tank.

You'll like the new engine mounts - worth the effort to install - you probably saw my comments on my experience. Night and day difference. Note - I was unable to figure out how to get the transmission mounts swapped out "in-place". I considered jacking up the transmission but was concerned I might lift it into the seat box - and, knowing I was pulling the transmission to get at the rear-main seal, I left the job until later. It may be doable though.

[ninescorpions]

I have a couple of the used brackets (LH and RH) as these now come embedded on the new Defender seat belts.
Pay the postage and they are yours.

Got the brackets a couple of days ago. I will go out today and give it a whirl...thanks!

[ninescorpions]

Second in the fuel bowl - I'm sure you've pulled and cleaned it. The third line of defense is the in-line fuel filter, which is sounds like you've been using.



At some point in the distant past, an electric fuel pump was put in. So my sediment checkpoints are both in line filters which are see through and are easy to maintain. Once the new tank is in...the filters will be on easy street.

[lumpydog]

That sock was gone...when I was hunting parts online I found out that piece was missing. I am not buying an entire pickup just for that...I will see what generic ones I can get for a few bucks. Those rubber washers were also no where to be found...lol. Prior work to the gas tank was done to fix a leak...who knows possibly because those were gone. But at the end of the day, they put it back together with leftover parts (rubber washers/pick up screen). God knows what else is missing on my LR. I should have most of the parts in before week's end...so should be a fun weekend :)

Replacing the tank is a good call. Starting with clean fuel solves a lot of problems :-)

This should help with the pickup tube: http://www.impalas.com/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=5651705

[ninescorpions]

Replacing the tank is a good call. Starting with clean fuel solves a lot of problems :-)

This should help with the pickup tube: http://www.impalas.com/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=5651705

Nice find! and a price I can live with :)

[Les Parker]

Glad they arrived OK.
Hope they work out for you.

[ninescorpions]

Glad they arrived OK.
Hope they work out for you.

Just finished installing the driver side...works like a champ! Cheers!

[cnfowler]

...Note - I was unable to figure out how to get the transmission mounts swapped out "in-place". I considered jacking up the transmission but was concerned I might lift it into the seat box - and, knowing I was pulling the transmission to get at the rear-main seal, I left the job until later. It may be doable though.

The transmission mounts can be done with the tranny and motor in place. I did my motor mounts and tranny mounts using nothing more than a floor jack.


Colin

[ninescorpions]

The transmission mounts can be done with the tranny and motor in place. I did my motor mounts and tranny mounts using nothing more than a floor jack.


Colin

Do you need to loosen the transmission mounts to get enough lift on the engine mounts to remove? I would assume this would make it easier...since in theory this is one big piece of metal you are wanting to move (motor plus tranny).

[lumpydog]

Do you need to loosen the transmission mounts to get enough lift on the engine mounts to remove? I would assume this would make it easier...since in theory this is one big piece of metal you are wanting to move (motor plus tranny).

I did not loosen the transmission mounts. I just supported the engine via a 2x4 and floor jack on the flat plane of the oil sump. You'll see that you don't need to actually lift the engine. Just keep it in place. If you find you do need to elevate the engine slightly - the rear mounts allow for it, no problem.

Be be careful about how much you lift the transmission or engine overall. There is room to do it - but you need to be aware of the OD shift arm's movement relative to the tunnel cover and also make sure the transmission itself does not contact the tunnel cover or seat housing.

[ninescorpions]

So we have been working on putting in a new gas tank. Below I got a shot of new hotness and old and busted. I would still like to try and salvage the old one, but not depending on it at this moment.

I went ahead and coated the new tank with Red Kote...was an interesting new experience...lol. I let it cure for one day and then we started to mount the new tank.

[ninescorpions]

The new tank was a tighter fit than the old one, but we got it in there. I found out the hard way that whomever had the tank out before (fixing a leak) did not put it back in with the right bolts and rubber washers. Anyways, we are fixing all of that in one swing.

[lumpydog]

Awesome work! That Land Rover won the lottery when you took it over. Keep the updates coming.

[ninescorpions]

Awesome work! That Land Rover won the lottery when you took it over. Keep the updates coming.

Thanks man. I will plumb up the tank either tomorrow or Monday. I need to marry that with motor mount replacement so I can start the beast!

[ninescorpions]

So got some good news today, followed by some not so good news and them some more not so good news.

The new tank sealant finally cured, so we plumbed up the tank and put fuel in it today. It has a new tank, new sender, tube sock, gaskets, etc. After sitting a month with her pants down, she fired right up with little effort (good news). Getting clean fuel out of the tank (as you would expect). However the fuel gauge is now about half of what it should read or somewhere in there. I put in about 5 gallons and I show 1/8 of a tank. In reality, I should be just under a half tank or at least 3/8. (bad news). I have read about multiple possible causes for this.

1. New sending unit and original fuel gauge are not compatible (gonna double checking my packaging, but what I am pretty sure I got was PLE494 which should be compatible. It is the only proline one for the S3.
2. Incorrect wiring of low fuel vs gauge. According to what I have read, T = gauge and W = warning light. That is how I have it wired. I have run a wire for low fuel, but not finished the wiring on the engine bay side for that yet. So no issue here that I can see.
3. Improper voltage at fuel gauge potentially due to voltage regulator. I have a hard time with this one since it was working before the swap
4. Defective sending unit

Any other potentials? One experiment I want to run is to compare impedance of the current sending unit (as it sits) vs my original sending unit. I was reading (in various threads) the resistance swing is somewhere around the 240 Ohm to 24 Ohm range (full to empty). I think this can help me narrow down if the sending unit seems to be working properly and that the issue is downstream.

Other bad news is that my LF hub gets hots after a 10 mile drive or so. Looks like works needs to be done there. (other bad news)

[lumpydog]

Try grounding the sender first. A new tank has fresh paint all around and is fairly well insulated from the chassis. The sender needs a good ground - this is usually established via the mounting screws to the tank, which is grounded via the tank's mounting hardware. Doesn't always work. Run a wire directly from one of the sender mounting screws to a bare metal contact on the chassis and see if that changes things.

Early lesson in Series ownership: Where electrical is concerned - it's all about the ground. Tip: make sure your battery ground to the chassis is clean and rust free. A little 600 sand paper on all contact points ensures the battery ground is clean and that's a good start. Don't allow paint between the ground contact and the chassis. Paint is an insulator.

On my truck I run a ground wire from the sender to the chassis. Ring terminal at both ends. Screwed into the chassis. Super accurate sender.

[ninescorpions]

Try grounding the sender first. A new tank has fresh paint all around and is fairly well isolated from the chassis. The sender needs a good ground - this is usually established via the mounting screws to the tank, which is grounded via the tank's mounting hardware. Doesn't always work. Run a wire directly from one of the sender mounting screws to a bare metal contact on the chassis and see if that changes things.

Early lesson in Series ownership: Where electrical is concerned - it's all about the ground. Tip: make sure your battery ground to the chassis is clean and rust free. A little 600 sand paper on all contact points ensures the battery ground is clean and that's a good start. Don't allow paint between the ground contact and the chassis. Paint is an isolator.

On my truck I run a ground wire from the sender to the chassis. Ring terminal at both ends. Screwed into the chassis. Super accurate sender.

Excellent points. I did ponder the grounding (closed circuit) that the sender in the tank is utilizing, but didn't spend any time on it. I am surprised that the design would not come with a wire connection specifically for ground, but then again the alternator is designed in a similar way. I still have the passenger seat out...so that is a quick go-do kinda thing. I realized how little is between you and the road when I took off today for a test drive and some dust was coming up from around the gas tank and I realized that I could look down at the road...lol.

I installed a new battery ground line to chassis...actually that was the first thing I did to this beast.

[SafeAirOne]

If you have the sender wired backwards (ground where power should be, power where ground should be), you'll get wonky readings. Mine always showed a half a tank when actually full with the wiring reversed.

[lumpydog]

If you have the sender wired backwards (ground where power should be, power where ground should be), you'll get wonky readings. Mine always showed a half a tank when actually full with the wiring reversed.

Some of the petrol senders (Late 2a and 3s) have only a single (https://pangolin4x4.com/item/756) terminal and use the tank itself as a ground - I was referring to this setup in my post!

[SafeAirOne]

Some of the petrol senders (Late 2a and 3s) have only a single (https://pangolin4x4.com/item/756) terminal and use the tank itself as a ground - I was referring to this setup in my post!

My SIII tank is one of the cam-locking sender-type tanks and has (or used to have, anyway) a ground tab on the top surface of the sender.

[2roverlabs]

Let me know if you solve the problem and how. I just posted a similar problem - installed new tank (multiple coats of rust protection applied to the outside of the tank - insulator?) and new ProLine sender. Sender barely registers....

[2roverlabs]

ProLine sender I installed was moving slowly and registered only a fraction of the fuel in the tank. I took Lumpydog's advice and ran a ground from the fixing bolt on the sender to the chassis. The sender/fuel gauge now responds quickly but now registers that the tank is full when it only has 5 gallons...Thoughts?

[SafeAirOne]

ProLine sender I installed was moving slowly and registered only a fraction of the fuel in the tank. I took Lumpydog's advice and ran a ground from the fixing bolt on the sender to the chassis. The sender/fuel gauge now responds quickly but now registers that the tank is full when it only has 5 gallons...Thoughts?

Did it perform correctly before you installed it in the tank?

[lumpydog]

Did it perform correctly before you installed it in the tank?

I just replied to the other thread with a similar thought...

It's worth noting that my first challenge/problem with my (then-new-to-me) Series 2a was the fuel sender. Mark (SafeAir) helped me fix it (and many other issues since then as well!)

[ninescorpions]

Sorry guys for being so slow...got caught up in other projects. Anyhow, before I parked the LR for a while...I ran a wire directly from the top of the sender (all metal) by using a ring connector on one of the sender screws...and then I ran that wire directly to the battery negative terminal. It made no change whatsoever...I am still getting very low reading and slow to respond. In theory...negative batt and chassis are the same and I already replaced the negative battery wire to chassis. But just for S&G's, I will run one now directly to chassis. If that does not work, I intend to drain the tank...pull the new sender and then attach the float to my old sender and run it up the flag pole.

Looks like I am going to need to replace the front wheel bearings...so I need to get past the fuel so I can tackle that. On my last test drive (about 10 miles), I found some good and some bad stuff:

Good:
-With the new alternator and wiring, my signal lights now flash faster. Sweet! Actually, (as you would expect) all lights are brighter
-Much smoother idle with new motor mounts
-I now have two side mirrors thanks to Ike...but still not enough miles to trust them. I guess since I drive slow...you always feel like you are getting run over from traffic behind.
-My dog loves getting in the back...but bounces around like a pinball which I find entertaining.

Bad:
-Tranny wants to pop out of 2nd great under deceleration (high or low range). I also seem to have a leak around the rear seal of the tranny. From what I was reading, both of these may be linked to the rear nut coming loose.
-Front hubs are getting hot...went back to the shop notes and they put in new seals, but not new bearings. I am about 90% sure they are in need of replacement. Hopefully the races are not loose on the hub...I do not want to replace the hubs.


I feel I am close to actually being able to drive this thing with some confidence.

[ninescorpions]

Did it perform correctly before you installed it in the tank?

Mine did

[SafeAirOne]

-I now have two side mirrors thanks to Ike...but still not enough miles to trust them.

Ike's mirrors are trustworthy. Unlike those aftermarket mirrors, I've never heard stories of Ike's NOS mirrors lying, cheating or stealing.




-Front hubs are getting hot...went back to the shop notes and they put in new seals, but not new bearings. I am about 90% sure they are in need of replacement. Hopefully the races are not loose on the hub...I do not want to replace the hubs.

Are you sure the brakes aren't just dragging? Or the preload on the bearings isn't wrong?

[lumpydog]

Are you sure the brakes aren't just dragging? Or the preload on the bearings isn't wrong?

This ^^^

Jack up each side/wheel (I think you have free wheel hubs - set the hub to "free"). Spin the raised wheel and listen for brake shoe scrub. You will hear and feel it. It won't spin a full rotation easily.

Bearings = overtightened hub nut. The heat you feel will come from the hub/center. If it's the brakes, the heat will radiate closer to the wheel's mounting nuts and away from the hub.

[lumpydog]

Bad:
-Tranny wants to pop out of 2nd great under deceleration (high or low range). I also seem to have a leak around the rear seal of the tranny. From what I was reading, both of these may be linked to the rear nut coming loose.
-Front hubs are getting hot...went back to the shop notes and they put in new seals, but not new bearings. I am about 90% sure they are in need of replacement. Hopefully the races are not loose on the hub...I do not want to replace the hubs.


I feel I am close to actually being able to drive this thing with some confidence.

Checking the rear nut is easy enough. There is an inspection plate above it. You can view down into the transmission by removing the middle seat cushion and the cover below it. Inspection plate is 4 nuts. If you have and Overdrive, you will need to pull it - otherwise, you'll have a quick/easy/clear view of the nut inquestion.

With regard to the tank's sender, definitely put the old sender back in and test it. You shouldn't have to drain the tank to do it. You may have the wrong sender for your truck. There are different types and they need to be paired to the gauge you are using. Swapping in the old one to see if it works will narrow things down. If the old gauge is also off, there is the possibility your voltage stabilizer (mounted to the back of speedo) is bad. It converts 12 volts to the 10 volts needed by the temp and fuel gauges. An indicator that the stabilizer is bad - the temp gauge also is off on its reading. Other possibilities, the fuel gauge/pod itself is bad. Wiring is bad somewhere in the circuit.

[ninescorpions]

Ike's mirrors are trustworthy. Unlike those aftermarket mirrors, I've never heard stories of Ike's NOS mirrors lying, cheating or stealing.


lol...well played sir.

[ninescorpions]

Are you sure the brakes aren't just dragging? Or the preload on the bearings isn't wrong?

100% sure it is not the brakes...already went that route. I did however watched a YouTube on how to adjust the hubs...which I was quite ignorant on until then. That is a very good possibility. The gauge used to measure the float (or free play)...do the auto parts store rent those out?

[ninescorpions]

This ^^^

Jack up each side/wheel (I think you have free wheel hubs - set the hub to "free"). Spin the raised wheel and listen for brake shoe scrub. You will hear and feel it. It won't spin a full rotation easily.

Bearings = overtightened hub nut. The heat you feel will come from the hub/center. If it's the brakes, the heat will radiate closer to the wheel's mounting nuts and away from the hub.

I did jack up the front axel and spin both tires in free wheel mode. Right front is free...left front is not. No brake scrub...to confirm the brake was adjusted all the way out (absolutely no contact under 360 degrees.) Heat is generated from hub center...second clear indicator that something is a miss in the bearing (either adjustment wise or function wise).

[ninescorpions]

Checking the rear nut is easy enough. There is an inspection plate above it. You can view down into the transmission by removing the middle seat cushion and the cover below it. Inspection plate is 4 nuts. If you have and Overdrive, you will need to pull it - otherwise, you'll have a quick/easy/clear view of the nut in question.

Roger that...if I recall what I read it has a quite high torque setting. 90 if I recall. And I read where a homemade socket was needed, short of buying a specific tool to tighten it. But first things first...is it actually loose.

[ninescorpions]

With regard to the tank's sender, definitely put the old sender back in and test it. You shouldn't have to drain the tank to do it. You may have the wrong sender for your truck. There are different types and they need to be paired to the gauge you are using. Swapping in the old one to see if it works will narrow things down. If the old gauge is also off, there is the possibility your voltage stabilizer (mounted to the back of speedo) is bad. It converts 12 volts to the 10 volts needed by the temp and fuel gauges. An indicator that the stabilizer is bad - the temp gauge also is off on its reading. Other possibilities, the fuel gauge/pod itself is bad. Wiring is bad somewhere in the circuit.

I was wondering if it is relatively safe to remove the old sender without draining the tank? According to the part number and what is available...it is the right one. Granted...does not ensure it will work. But I do not want to point a finger at a new part till I extinguish all other options.

[ninescorpions]

Just wanted to take a moment and say thanks to all of you guys that respond to my posts. It has helped me a ton on getting passed one problem and on to the next. Between this forum, the green bible, and YouTube...I am getting there. I am learning so much mechanical stuff and the farther I get, the more comfortable I feel since if something does go wrong down the road (and I am sure it will)...I will be better prepared to troubleshoot and solve it.

Cheers!

[lumpydog]

100% sure it is not the brakes...already went that route. I did however watched a YouTube on how to adjust the hubs...which I was quite ignorant on until then. That is a very good possibility. The gauge used to measure the float (or free play)...do the auto parts store rent those out?

I use this one (https://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G9849-Magnetic-Indicator-Combo/dp/B0000DD0VA/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1487043079&sr=8-3&keywords=Dial+gauge). At that price, nice to own/have.

[lumpydog]

I was wondering if it is relatively safe to remove the old sender without draining the tank? According to the part number and what is available...it is the right one. Granted...does not ensure it will work. But I do not want to point a finger at a new part till I extinguish all other options.

It's safe. Just work in a ventilated space. No spark or flame sources nearby. If you're really concerned, a good safety measure whenever you mess with electric on your truck - disconnect the negative/ground wire from the battery.

[lumpydog]

Just wanted to take a moment and say thanks to all of you guys that respond to my posts. It has helped me a ton on getting passed one problem and on to the next. Between this forum, the green bible, and YouTube...I am getting there. I am learning so much mechanical stuff and the farther I get, the more comfortable I feel since if something does go wrong down the road (and I am sure it will)...I will be better prepared to troubleshoot and solve it.

Cheers!

Somewhere in my post history is the same post :-)

These trucks are great teachers. They are tolerant of mistakes but are also very vocal if you know how to listen (heat at the hubs). You're well on your way. Keep at it - it's a really fun hobby.

[SafeAirOne]

I use this one (https://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G9849-Magnetic-Indicator-Combo/dp/B0000DD0VA/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1487043079&sr=8-3&keywords=Dial+gauge). At that price, nice to own/have.

Yeah, for Rover stuff/occasional use, the magnetic base dial & indicator that Harbor Freight sells is just fine too.

[ninescorpions]

Bouncing back to the hubs. I got the LF hub off today. Races were not loose in the hub and seal is ok. However the rollers on the bearings have little to no rotation. As well you can see groves worn into the rollers and race where the bearing has "locked" in place. I would assume the load of the wheel, etc has induced that wear since it is not properly spinning. I believe it was likely spinning some, but would catch on the grooves created by the roller. Take a look at the inside of the race (I believe this is outer).

I would assume this is not normal wear and tear.

[ninescorpions]

Here is what the bearing looks like (grease has been removed...so all that you see if the actual bearing).

[ninescorpions]

So pretty clear the bearings need replacing along with the races. The question I am having now is related to the hub. In the below picture, you can see where the race mounts...there is a pretty good score mark that can be felt with a finger. However is it the case since the races are tight in the hub (it took the expected amount of ground and pound with a punch to get both races out, that the hub is still ok? Really not excited about replacing hubs, but for sure races and bearings are needed.

The RF hub would get warm, but not as hot as the LF. I have to assume the same condition is present (meaning the bearing is starting to give up), but just not as far along as the LF. Either way, I am going to do the whole axle.

[ninescorpions]

Fuel Update: I also just spent some time playing with the fuel sender. I pulled the new sender and then measured the gauge connector to sender chassis (metal plate). Readings are as follows:

Actual fuel in tank: ~1/4 tank

Original sender
Fuel Reading on dash gauge: 1/32 of a tank (touching the top of "E")
Resistance range on sender (out of tank): ~19 Ohms to 289 Ohms

New sender
Fuel Reading on dash gauge: 1/8 of a tank
Resistance range on sender (out of tank): ~17 Ohms to 309 Ohms
Low Fuel range: Open resistance -> 0 Ohms when float is low enough (working fine)

Conclusion: I cannot say there is something wrong with the new sender yet and the old one seems to be working properly. I saw this truck register the right fuel level twice and that was when I first got it running. The current variable remains the new gas tank (grounding mechanism). I will try again to run a new ground to the battery for both the new sender and old and repeat the test. If that does not work, then I have to head towards the voltage regulator. I see that my water temp gauge is in the "cold" bar even when the engine is warm. Lumpydog, you mentioned that they are wired to the same regulator.

Where does your temp gauge sit when the motor is warm with a 74 C thermostat?

[lumpydog]

So pretty clear the bearings need replacing along with the races. The question I am having now is related to the hub. In the below picture, you can see where the race mounts...there is a pretty good score mark that can be felt with a finger. However is it the case since the races are tight in the hub (it took the expected amount of ground and pound with a punch to get both races out, that the hub is still ok? Really not excited about replacing hubs, but for sure races and bearings are needed.

The RF hub would get warm, but not as hot as the LF. I have to assume the same condition is present (meaning the bearing is starting to give up), but just not as far along as the LF. Either way, I am going to do the whole axle.

Damn nice detective work. You are spot on, based on what I see. New races and bearings (they are delivered paired) will clear this issue right up. Pack (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002NYDYO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) the new bearings in some good grease (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006K8VIAM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). As Mark pointed out, take the right care not to over-tighten the hub nuts - use a dial gauge.

Don't worry about the wear under the races - as long as the races are seated properly, that won't matter. Freezing the races before you drift them in will help. Def do both sides of the axle.

Dial gauge in action. Very easy to use and measure end-float with:
12221

[lumpydog]

Fuel Update: I also just spent some time playing with the fuel sender. I pulled the new sender and then measured the gauge connector to sender chassis (metal plate). Readings are as follows:

Actual fuel in tank: ~1/4 tank

Original sender
Fuel Reading on dash gauge: 1/32 of a tank (touching the top of "E")
Resistance range on sender (out of tank): ~19 Ohms to 289 Ohms

New sender
Fuel Reading on dash gauge: 1/8 of a tank
Resistance range on sender (out of tank): ~17 Ohms to 309 Ohms
Low Fuel range: Open resistance -> 0 Ohms when float is low enough (working fine)

Conclusion: I cannot say there is something wrong with the new sender yet and the old one seems to be working properly. I saw this truck register the right fuel level twice and that was when I first got it running. The current variable remains the new gas tank (grounding mechanism). I will try again to run a new ground to the battery for both the new sender and old and repeat the test. If that does not work, then I have to head towards the voltage regulator. I see that my water temp gauge is in the "cold" bar even when the engine is warm. Lumpydog, you mentioned that they are wired to the same regulator.

Where does your temp gauge sit when the motor is warm with a 74 C thermostat?


Ok - given your temp gauge is also off, I'd shift focus to the voltage stabilizer (not voltage regulator - that's different) - stabilizers are prone to failure. It's a small device that is mounted to the back of the speedo. It shifts the voltage to 10V down from 12V. Basically it has two inputs marked "B" (I think referring to battery) and two outputs marked "I" (I think for instruments). In any case - the B terminals are for the 12V power source - dark green. And the "I" terminals are the 10V output to the temp and fuel gauges - light green. Pretty simple.

The way these are typically setup on a Series 3 - one 12V dark green into "B" and one 10V light green from "I" out to the fuel gauge and jumped over to the temp gauge. You can get an "analog" voltage stabilizer (https://pangolin4x4.com/item/288) but I find the Moss motors "solid state" ones (http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=57730) (you want negative) to be better, in that they deliver a rock solid 10 volts - no ifs ands or buts. Buy a few of them to have a spare. My money is on this solution to get your temp and fuel gauges back in the game.

My temp gauge (82 deg Celcius) reads dead middle at operating temp - the needle sits right on the "N".

[cnfowler]

How to use the dial gauge to set end float.

https://youtu.be/bn3ADa06MZI


Colin

[ninescorpions]

How to use the dial gauge to set end float.

https://youtu.be/bn3ADa06MZI


Colin

Absolutely! I love those tool box videos...I think I have watched them all about 10 times...lol.

[cnfowler]

He does a great job of explaining everything and his videos are well put together.


Colin

[SafeAirOne]

How to use the dial gauge to set end float.

https://youtu.be/bn3ADa06MZI

Good video for hub end-float. I didn't like the dial indicator setup he briefly showed for the brake disc runout though. Of course, that shouldn't really matter for us...

[ninescorpions]

Damn nice detective work. You are spot on, based on what I see. New races and bearings (they are delivered paired) will clear this issue right up. Pack (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002NYDYO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) the new bearings in some good grease (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006K8VIAM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). As Mark pointed out, take the right care not to over-tighten the hub nuts - use a dial gauge.

Don't worry about the wear under the races - as long as the races are seated properly, that won't matter. Freezing the races before you drift them in will help. Def do both sides of the axle.

Dial gauge in action. Very easy to use and measure end-float with

I see on some of the later models, that they first tighten the inner nut to 61nm to "set the bearing". Then they back it off 90 degrees and use the dial gauge to set the correct float (well some don't even do that, but you get the sequence). In the particular video I was watching, it was a Discovery. Is there a need to "set the bearing" on the series Rover? Or can I just go to hand tight or slightly farther and starting working with the dial gauge.

[lumpydog]

Follow that worksop manual closely. It states "spin the hub vigorously causing the bearing rollers to settle..." it goes on to say "It is necessary to spin the hub every time before checking end float...". There is a sequence described that will get you there. It's not too complex. I've found that the nuts can be set/undone by hand when done right. The box spanner is really not needed but makes it easy to manage the nuts.

You're right that some can just do it by feel and the amount of turn/back off of the nut. I prefer to follow the manual and call it done.

[ninescorpions]

where do you see that content? I am on section 9:2 and it states (under "to replace hub"): "slide the hut onto the stub axle and fit the inner tab-washer and the adjusting nut. Adjust the hub end float to between .004 to .006 inch (.10 to 15mm). Fit the outer tabwasher and locknut. Check the float after tighting the locknut. The end float on Series 3 models should be .002 to .004 inch (.05 to .10mm)"

What section are you in? Perhaps more detail is being shown where I am not looking.

Note I have a Brooklands Book.

[lumpydog]

where do you see that content? I am on section 9:2 and it states (under "to replace hub"): "slide the hut onto the stub axle and fit the inner tab-washer and the adjusting nut. Adjust the hub end float to between .004 to .006 inch (.10 to 15mm). Fit the outer tabwasher and locknut. Check the float after tighting the locknut. The end float on Series 3 models should be .002 to .004 inch (.05 to .10mm)"

What section are you in? Perhaps more detail is being shown where I am not looking.

Note I have a Brooklands Book.

It's from the 2A Green Bible. I can take pictures later and load here for your reference if that would help.

As an aside, I've found that the 2A Green Bible and Series 3 Green Bible are generally the same with regard to instruction, with the Series 3 GB evolving some of the methodology and being more concise. Be aware that some of the specs are different between the 2A and Series 3 Green Bible. Because the Series 3 Green Bible is readily available electronically and I have a print copy of the 2A GB, I cross reference them often before tackling a job.

[lumpydog]

Looks like I've hit my limit on uploading pictures in these forums... PM me your email address and I can send them.

Rovers North - what's up with the cap on image uploads?

[Edit] Here you go (https://goo.gl/photos/3WttA5U1X1Rgc9wVA).

[ninescorpions]

Been a while since I was on here...once again had to put the Rover on hold to deal with some other items. But got some good news and some bad news. Let's start with the good. I have successfully installed new bearings in both the LF and RF hubs. As shown in the previous pics, the LF bearing was shot. Once I got the RF hub off, I found out that the outer bearing was actually starting to come apart. I was hearing metal on metal when I would rotate the hub...so I am quite sure this is what I was hearing. The inner hub looked pretty good actually, but it just like the others has gone to be with God. It took some time to get handy with the dial gauge and figure the right tightness of the inner nut float vs float change once the locking washer and outer nut was installed. For me, I needed to be around .008in float with just the inner nut. Once the locking washer and outer nut was installed, I was right around .004in. So both hubs are completely rebuilt and sound fantastic (meaning I don't hear anything...lol).

Some more good news. Another thread was talking about the brake springs and symptoms associated with them being installed incorrectly. Considering I already had a weak pedal until pumped 4 or so times...I went and had a look while the LF hub was off. Sure enough...my local shop has attached the two shoes together. I don't blame them so much on this...but vey glad I read these forums! See below the incorrect install...

[ninescorpions]

One of the hubs also had the bottom black spring on the outer side of the shoes. So I also fixed this. I also found that you have to have the right orientation of the spring hook. Meaning...which way it hooks around the posts. If the hook of the spring is going around the post upside down, the spring itself will sit lower on the back plate and actually touch the hub. I found this because when I first installed the hub...I would hear light metal grinding sounds. I was like, what? These are new bearings. But then I found that the sound was actually the spring rubbing against the hub. I flipped it over and that solved it.

Now my shoes sit out farther than before which is great. My weak pedal was definitely related to this. However they are sitting out too far. I have adjusted down the leading shoe. But the trailing shoe is seated against the cylinder and only has the tension of the bottom black spring to hold it up (which is correct). However it seems there is too much pressure from the cylinder to allow the brake to "rest" far enough up to allow the drum on. I was able to get the RF drum on, but had to manually compress the trailing shoe towards the cylinder. As you would expect, it is dragging the drum. I know there are a few issues that could potentially cause this...I have them listed below. I guess it is now trying to figure out what I do not know:

Issue: Brake shoes are "resting" too far out causing the diameter of the virtual ring (outer edge of shoes if you drew a line around simulating where the drum would go).

Cause 1: Brake shoes mixed up (leading vs trailing).
This has been validated...leading shoe has the post for the spring. Trailing shoe has no post
Cause 2: Incorrectly installed springs
As already posted...this is how I got to this point. Actually put the springs on right
Cause 3: Defective/broken/wrong brake cylinder
The shop did put new cylinders on all four corners. I confirmed with RN that these are right and the only difference in the cylinders on all four corners is where the brake line connectors (physical parameters and function are the same)
Cause 4: System needs rebleeding
I have not yet taken off the rear hubs, but pretty sure I will find those springs also wrong. The plan is to take off the rear hubs, validate and fix as needed. Once that is done...then I want to rebleed everything.
Cause 5: Brake adjuster
This has also been validated. Regardless of how far in our out the adjuster is changes...the outer virtual dimension is still greater than that of the drum. If I adjust in the leading shoe...it forces the trailing shoe out at more or less the same rate. Result...the overall outer dimension remains the same.
Cause 6: Brake drum out of spec
I have measure the brake drum (which is new)...and inner dimension is exactly 11". My old drum measures 11 1/32" due to wear.
Cause 7: Brake show is not square against drum...meaning there is high point causing the contact =
I have validated that the entire shoe is evenly installed on the backing plate and has the same dimension deficiency across the length of the shoe. If I were to remove all braking material from the shoe...it would then slide on the drum. But not in one spot...it would be needed end to end.

What else am I missing? The situation is so severe on the LF...I cannot even compress the trailing shoe enough to get the drum on. I was barely able to do this on the RF. Is it a matter of releasing all brake fluid pressure from the system and starting from scratch? I will upload another photo as soon as I am able. Uploader was saying I was capped or something.

[ninescorpions]

Looks like I've hit my limit on uploading pictures in these forums... PM me your email address and I can send them.

Rovers North - what's up with the cap on image uploads?

[Edit] Here you go (https://goo.gl/photos/3WttA5U1X1Rgc9wVA).

Thanks for the help on the bearings!

[erik88lr]

Looking at the photo, the boot at the rear of the cylinder seems to be out a lot more than the front, as if that piston is out. The pistons should float in the cylinder, so I'd try prying the rear shoes in toward the cylinder with a screwdriver between the lining and the lip on the backing plate. If there is no movement try opening the bleeder and trying again. If still no movement maybe the rear piston is seized....

[ninescorpions]

Looking at the photo, the boot at the rear of the cylinder seems to be out a lot more than the front, as if that piston is out. The pistons should float in the cylinder, so I'd try prying the rear shoes in toward the cylinder with a screwdriver between the lining and the lip on the backing plate. If there is no movement try opening the bleeder and trying again. If still no movement maybe the rear piston is seized....

Thanks for this tip. I did exactly that. With the bleed valve open, I forced in the shoe in turn pushing fluid out the bleeder. I did this a couple of times. This definitely got the shoe in further on the cylinder. On the last attempt, I had the drum in place (against the shoe). With the valve open...I pushed the shoe in and then pushed the drum over it and retightened the bleeder.

This definitely got me "reassembled". I played with the brake adjuster a bit to get the least amount of friction from the trailing brake as I could (leading shoe out...trailing shoe in). But it is important to note that the trailing shoe is resting on the drum. And this is where my concern lies. I also fixed the placement of the upper springs on both rear brake assemblies (as suspected...they were also wrong). I put it all back together and fired it up. I took a 5 mile (round trip drive). Nice to get behind the wheel once in a while :) Once I got back, I check the hubs. Previously when the bearings were shot, the heat was focused on the warn hub...less on the wheel. In this case, I am getting heat through the wheel and less on the hub. This is indicating to me that 1. my new bears are so far so good 2. the amount of brake drag I have on the LF is too great.

I will jack it up tomorrow and check the brake adjuster. How much heat is acceptable heat when it comes to brake drag? I hear a lot that a little brake friction is not a bag thing, but I am pretty sure my condition is over the limit.

One other item to notate. The rear drums go on without a hitch. Meaning that the shoes are seated naturally far enough in that no monkey business is needed to get the drum on. I never get any heat signatures from the rear wheels or hubs. The condition exists on both fronts...so so on the RF and heavier on the LF.

[ninescorpions]

Also wanted to mention that the bore size on my cylinders in the front are larger than the rear. And the rears are fitting perfect. Looking in the workshop manual, it shows that front and rear should have the same bore size on a S3. The shop I have the truck in replaced all four cylinders. Curious on this situation.

[erik88lr]

Also wanted to mention that the bore size on my cylinders in the front are larger than the rear. And the rears are fitting perfect. Looking in the workshop manual, it shows that front and rear should have the same bore size on a S3. The shop I have the truck in replaced all four cylinders. Curious on this situation.

Well, our hosts parts catalog shows different part number for each of the four cylinders, so I wouldn't think the front and rear are the same. If you come back from a test drive and find the brakes dragging I'd open a bleeder and see if there is pressure there, if releasing the pressure frees the brake(s). I've seen a maladjusted master cylinder push rod keep fluid from freely flowing back, and moisture in the brake fluid boiling and causing brakes to lock up until things cool down. There are all kinds of weird things that can happen, but the landy drum brakes overall are pretty simple to work on.

[ninescorpions]

Well after some down time and a lot of head scratching, I think we are back on track. Now we have replaced all brake components except for the hard lines. Last item replaced were the flex hoses. We bled the MC and then did the RF and LF, now things are working as expected (rears are perfect). I still have a little brake drag on the LF (with cam adjusted) and slightly more on the RF (cam also adjusted). I took it for a 5 mile drive, and the wheels/drums were luke warm. Unlike before where you could cook an egg on them. Hubs are also still cold...so bearings are doing their thing. I will take it on a longer drive to see how they do, but I think it will improve as it grinds a little bit off the new shoes. As long as it is not the surface of the sun, I hope they will wear in (reduce to nearly no drag).

About to move to Seattle and will transport the Rover, so trying to get some of these items done and make it as ready to drive as possible for the move.