Brake question

[DGG]

I'm doing a full refurbishment of a 1961 109 Station Wagon. I have completely rebuilt the brake system with all new parts. I have bled the brakes with a power bleeder 4 or 5 times. I am getting no air bubbles, and I have no leaks. It takes 4-5 pedal pushes to get the brakes to work. Once I release the pressure, the pedal goes to the floor again. 4-5 maybe 6 pumps, and then I get brakes. What am I missing? Thanks.

[SafeAirOne]

Are the brakes properly adjusted with the snail cams?

It is my understanding that most of the replacement brake shoes available today are junk. See this thread on G&R: http://gunsandrovers.com/showthread.php?t=9556

Also there's the matter of having the rear shoes on incorrectly. See TeriAnn's page about this: http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/...rearbrakes.htm



All these things (and a few unmentioned things) make the 109 brakes not work without many pumps.

[DGG]

I have the shoes on correctly as per TeriAnn's page. I think my problem is with the snail cams and the shoes. Is there an orientation for the snail cams? Does it matter which way they go on. It seems like when I adjust the snail cams, it doesn't push the shoes out far enough. Maybe it's the posts on the shoes not being in the right spot. I think the brake shoes are Delphi. One of the posts fell out also.

[SafeAirOne]

One of the posts fell out also.

This is, of course, a huge red flag.

[DGG]

What about the orientation of the cams in the picture? Both cams have the flat side facing the top. Does it matter? The business where I got the brake kit is willing to replace the shoes if they are defective. I just don't know where to go from here. I'm doing a frame off restoration of this vehicle, and the only thing that is holding me back from driving it on the road is no brakes. Frustrating.

[SafeAirOne]

What about the orientation of the cams in the picture? Both cams have the flat side facing the top.

Diagram from the parts catalogue:

[o2batsea]

I can only adjust the rear brakes properly with the wheels off the ground...so I can tell how tight the adjustment is. I adjust the snail cams so that there is SIGNIFICANT drag on the wheel when you attempt to turn it by hand. Not so much that it is locked, but it must be hard to turn.

I also find that the snail cam tends to get a flat spot which then makes the post on the shoe kinda slip back into this spot no matter what you do. Replacing the snail cams is the remedy. Our hosts have a kit. Be sure you put them on right way around.
The rears on a 109 should lock up under a good stab with the welly.

[DGG]

looks like on the diagram that the snail cams flat edge is facing up. I think on my picture it shows one of the snail cams with the flat side down. I'm taking apart the brakes and starting over. Not looking forward to it. Any idea which way to turn the snail cams? Is it always clockwise or anti clockwise, or does it vary side to side?

[DGG]

I discovered a potential problem already. I downloaded the instructions from Britpart for the snail cam installation. I have the front brake cams installed incorrectly. I'll change that. The instructions also say that you may have to file down the bolt so there is clearance between the bolt and brake shoe.

[SafeAirOne]

...Britpart...

Red flag #2.

[lumpydog]

Red flag #2.

Agreed. Danger Will Robinson. Any part that has to do with the safety of you or others. No blue bags.

[DGG]

So I redid all the brakes. Got them adjusted until I couldn't turn the wheel, and then backed off a notch or two until I got some movement. I still get a pedal that requires 6-10 pumps to get firm. This is so frustrating. Do I need to bleed the brakes again? What is going on?

[SafeAirOne]

Other common problems that will cause your woes:

Air in the system; Front 109 brakes are notoriously terrible to bleed due to plumbing that is not conducive to getting air out of the system by bleeding the "normal" direction, by pushing fluid from the master cylinder to the top wheel cylinder to the bottom wheel cylinder. I understand that people have had better results by rerouting the lines so that the bottom wheel cylinder gets fluid first, then the top, but I have no personal experience doing this.

I also know of an individual who has had to take the brake backing plate (with the whole brake assembly) off and lay it flat during bleeding to get all the air out (he strapped the shoes in place so the wheel cylinder pistons wouldn't pop out).


There have been more than a couple of owners reporting lately, that their master cylinders have had internal leaks that pumped air into the brake hydraulic systems without any evidence of fluid leakage from the MC.

Also check that your MC pushrod is the correct length.

I don't do this because I never had the need, and I believe it damages the flex lines, but there are brake hose clamps that you can buy (see images, below) to pinch off the flow through the rubber brake flex lines in order to isolate the problem. Pinch off the rear flex line and you still have a problem? The issue is upstream of the rear brakes, etc...

[DGG]

will those work on these

[SafeAirOne]

will those work on these

Probably not without causing damage.