Brake question

[DGG]

I'm doing a full refurbishment of a 1961 109 Station Wagon. I have completely rebuilt the brake system with all new parts. I have bled the brakes with a power bleeder 4 or 5 times. I am getting no air bubbles, and I have no leaks. It takes 4-5 pedal pushes to get the brakes to work. Once I release the pressure, the pedal goes to the floor again. 4-5 maybe 6 pumps, and then I get brakes. What am I missing? Thanks.

[SafeAirOne]

Are the brakes properly adjusted with the snail cams?

It is my understanding that most of the replacement brake shoes available today are junk. See this thread on G&R: http://gunsandrovers.com/showthread.php?t=9556

Also there's the matter of having the rear shoes on incorrectly. See TeriAnn's page about this: http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/landRoverFAQ/FAQ_rearbrakes.htm



All these things (and a few unmentioned things) make the 109 brakes not work without many pumps.

[DGG]

I have the shoes on correctly as per TeriAnn's page. I think my problem is with the snail cams and the shoes. Is there an orientation for the snail cams? Does it matter which way they go on. It seems like when I adjust the snail cams, it doesn't push the shoes out far enough. Maybe it's the posts on the shoes not being in the right spot. I think the brake shoes are Delphi. One of the posts fell out also.

[SafeAirOne]

One of the posts fell out also.

This is, of course, a huge red flag.

[DGG]

What about the orientation of the cams in the picture? Both cams have the flat side facing the top. Does it matter? The business where I got the brake kit is willing to replace the shoes if they are defective. I just don't know where to go from here. I'm doing a frame off restoration of this vehicle, and the only thing that is holding me back from driving it on the road is no brakes. Frustrating.

[SafeAirOne]

What about the orientation of the cams in the picture? Both cams have the flat side facing the top.

Diagram from the parts catalogue:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4263/34633651453_9ccb0fd08a_b.jpg

[o2batsea]

I can only adjust the rear brakes properly with the wheels off the ground...so I can tell how tight the adjustment is. I adjust the snail cams so that there is SIGNIFICANT drag on the wheel when you attempt to turn it by hand. Not so much that it is locked, but it must be hard to turn.

I also find that the snail cam tends to get a flat spot which then makes the post on the shoe kinda slip back into this spot no matter what you do. Replacing the snail cams is the remedy. Our hosts have a kit. Be sure you put them on right way around.
The rears on a 109 should lock up under a good stab with the welly.

[DGG]

looks like on the diagram that the snail cams flat edge is facing up. I think on my picture it shows one of the snail cams with the flat side down. I'm taking apart the brakes and starting over. Not looking forward to it. Any idea which way to turn the snail cams? Is it always clockwise or anti clockwise, or does it vary side to side?

[DGG]

I discovered a potential problem already. I downloaded the instructions from Britpart for the snail cam installation. I have the front brake cams installed incorrectly. I'll change that. The instructions also say that you may have to file down the bolt so there is clearance between the bolt and brake shoe.

[SafeAirOne]

...Britpart...

Red flag #2.

[lumpydog]

Red flag #2.

Agreed. Danger Will Robinson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWwOJlOI1nU). Any part that has to do with the safety of you or others. No blue bags.

[DGG]

So I redid all the brakes. Got them adjusted until I couldn't turn the wheel, and then backed off a notch or two until I got some movement. I still get a pedal that requires 6-10 pumps to get firm. This is so frustrating. Do I need to bleed the brakes again? What is going on?

[SafeAirOne]

Other common problems that will cause your woes:

Air in the system; Front 109 brakes are notoriously terrible to bleed due to plumbing that is not conducive to getting air out of the system by bleeding the "normal" direction, by pushing fluid from the master cylinder to the top wheel cylinder to the bottom wheel cylinder. I understand that people have had better results by rerouting the lines so that the bottom wheel cylinder gets fluid first, then the top, but I have no personal experience doing this.

I also know of an individual who has had to take the brake backing plate (with the whole brake assembly) off and lay it flat during bleeding to get all the air out (he strapped the shoes in place so the wheel cylinder pistons wouldn't pop out).


There have been more than a couple of owners reporting lately, that their master cylinders have had internal leaks that pumped air into the brake hydraulic systems without any evidence of fluid leakage from the MC.

Also check that your MC pushrod is the correct length.

I don't do this because I never had the need, and I believe it damages the flex lines, but there are brake hose clamps that you can buy (see images, below) to pinch off the flow through the rubber brake flex lines in order to isolate the problem. Pinch off the rear flex line and you still have a problem? The issue is upstream of the rear brakes, etc...

http://www.sulco.co.nz/core/media/media.nl?id=64888&c=3541855&h=ccd8162d6746fc433854
http://www.lasertools.co.uk/items/large/4976_right.jpg

[DGG]

will those work on these12344

[SafeAirOne]

will those work on these

Probably not without causing damage.

[Gilberto]

Your master cylinder might be keeping air, try bleeding the system with the front part of the vehicle raised, as to allow air to flow from the master cylinder. Good luck.
Cheers from Tampico, Mexico

[erik88lr]

This thread is almost two months old. Has the brake problem been resolved?

[DGG]

No! The truck is at my local mechanic. They cannot figure it out. One mechanic thinks it's the master cylinder, the other thinks its a wheel cylinder. They are calling another guy who specializes in older foreign cars.

[Les Parker]

These 109" Front brakes are a continual problem.
Ever thought of fitting front discs :-
http://www.forbynbros.com/disc-brake-conversion-kits/

RN offers the Companion fitting kit (Pads, rotors, seals , gaskets and bearings ):- PLK6116 Kit.

[DGG]

If I didn't just spend a fortune on all new brake components then maybe yes.

[tmckeon88]

If I didn't just spend a fortune on all new brake components then maybe yes.


Something to check is whether the large welded pins that the brake shoes rest on t the bottom are solidly welded into the backing plate. I had a pin that had come loose and for years I couldn't get my brakes adjusted. Despite new parts and re-bleeding they always required extra pumps to get pressure. (It finally resulted in a rear-ending accident in 2010 which got me off my ass and got the truck into a shop where they discovered the broken pin.) With the backing plate replaced, the brakes have never been better.

Just one more thing to look into. It could be on any one of the wheels; it creates slop in the whole system that the hydraulics are called upon to fill.

Tom

[DGG]

An update on my brake saga. Last time I posted was in the beginning of August when I dropped off the truck at my local mechanic. Well two months later, they were able to get a decent pedal and braking. They concluded after bleeding several times, taking off the front backing plates, turning them upside down and bleeding, bench bleeding the master cylinder, that the rear brakes were the main issue.

They were not able to get the brake shoes adjusted out far enough to contact the drum. So it was taking a couple of pumps to get the shoes to the drum. When they did, I had a firm pedal. when I released the pedal, had to start again. They took the adjuster pins out, and drilled holes in the shoes to install pins closer to the adjuster cams to be able to adjust the shoes properly. The shoes were Britpart, so I don't know if that had anything to do with it. I got a set of Mintex shoes to replace in the future or over the winter.

I have been driving the truck around town for the past couple of weeks. On about the third day of driving the truck, I all of a sudden had a good pedal that didn't require pumping the pedal a couple of times. I was very excited until today. I took the truck out for it's longest drive since picking it up, a total of 20 miles. Top speed 50. The truck felt more comfortable at 40 though. At 50, it sounded like it would come apart. I have never driven a Series truck before, so I have no reference.

When I parked the car at home, I smelled burning brakes. I felt each wheel, and they were all really hot. I couldn't keep the back of my hand on the wheel for more than a split second. I tried rolling the truck, but could not. Now what?