Terminology - Sound like you know somwthing

[vlad_d]

Hello Rovers!

Somewhat new to Land Rover world, and I must admit that I'm scratching my head at some of the acronyms. I'm embarrassed to say I found out some of these just a few days ago. Thought I'd start a thread. Might be fun to post what we 'thought they meant along the way. It's fun to laugh at ourselves, too.

MOD/Ex-MOD - This means "Ministry of Defense" and it means the truck was a military surplus vehicle in the UK. Some differences in design for military. - In retail context, this means "Manager on Duty". Heh. Not that. Although they are pretty "Boss" :)

LWB - This means "Long Wheel Base" and it denotes the 109" or 110" models.

SWB - This means "Short Wheel Base" and it denotes the 88" and 90" models.

NOS - This means "New, Original Stock" and it means the part is New in the box, but it might have been sitting on a shelf since 1975. This is often the only way to get original equipment that is discontinued.

NAS - I have no idea what this means. Is this a reference to a certain rapper? ;D Little help here?

TDI - To the rest of the world, this means "Turbocharged Direct Injection". On VW's its often on the Diesel motors, so I kind of always assumed it meant "Turbo Diesel Injected". It's the intake for the motor. It has a turbocharger which shoves more air+fuel into the engine, and fuel injection system. Stop me if any of this is wrong. - On Land Rovers, this is a model of Defender? Does that model have a TDI setup? Should I call my Series "Series Carbeurated/Series 3c"?

What are some acronyms that stumped you?

[vlad_d]

...to add to the indignity, I miss spelled the Title and I can't change it. o_o

[mearstrae]

NAS, North American Spec. ROW, rest of world (spec). TDI is as you say. Series 3c isn't a thing, since all Series Land Rover had carbs. Unless you consider the Discovery Series II, a horse of a different color.

[vlad_d]

NAS, North American Spec. ROW, rest of world (spec). TDI is as you say. Series 3c isn't a thing, since all Series Land Rover had carbs. Unless you consider the Discovery Series II, a horse of a different color.

What exactly makes it a "North American Spec"? Other than seat belts and the steering wheel on the left? I see NAS in front of everything. Does that mean the bolts are UNF instead of metric?

Oh, better add:
RHD - means "Right Hand Drive", where the steering wheel, pedals and driver are on the right side of the car.

UNF - means "Unified Fine Thread". It's like SAE sizes of bolts (fractions of inch) but finer thread pitch. Sometimes called "machinist" threads. But basically a useless moniker, because there might be 2 or 3 different thread pitch sizes that qualify as "fine" right next to each other. I wish people referred to sizes in full name, example "5/16ths - 22 - Grade 8". Then you'd know what you're getting. But I'm going on a tangent.

[vlad_d]

NADA - What?!

[mearstrae]

NADA, kinda like NAS, North American Dealer Area. NAS is of course left hand drive (as are Dutch vehicle and some others), have all the same bolts (basiclly metric on newer LR's, and BSF and BSC (similar to UNF and UNC), or even Witworth on older LR's) etc. Pretty sure that newer NAS vehicles have different polution controls, as UK (and EUR) worry more about carbon dioxide, and here we worry about hydro-carbons. And, perhaps different safety standards. UNF= unified national fine. UNC= unified national course. You'll also find NPT referred to and that's national pipe thread. Then you've got SAE references also. Confused yet???

[cedryck]

IDNS= It does not start.
ILO= It leaks oil.
IHTHPWD= It's hard to hear passengers when driving.
NBWWOR= Need beer when wrenching on Rover.
Cheers lads!

[jimrr]

thx, for the exmod, finally i know. don't forget OEM "original equip. manufacture"..... and having worked for the gubment 35 yrs. I know a lot of those !!

[mearstrae]

Now that this can of worms is open... Bolts and nuts are usually NC or NF (national course or national fine) in inch sizes, you'd be hard pressed to find other thread pitches at the local auto parts or hardware store. Grade markings are pretty easy, just add two to the number of lines shown on the head of a bolt, two lines - grade 4, three lines - grade 5, etc. Most folks don't know but, nuts and lock washers also come in grades, as do flat washers. These should be matched up when putting something together. I've found grade 2 nuts an grade 8 bolts, pretty useless. Oh, the reason for adding two to the number of lines on a bolt head is...unmarked bolts are grade 0 or 1 or 2. There are other bolt markings as well, but these are the common ones. And some graded nuts use a dot system on the tops, one dot grade 4, etc.

[vlad_d]

IDNS= It does not start.
ILO= It leaks oil.
IHTHPWD= It's hard to hear passengers when driving.
NBWWOR= Need beer when wrenching on Rover.
Cheers lads!

I definitely have an ILO Series 3! No need to check the serial number! :D And I don't remember asking for that package option!

[mearstrae]

The ILO option comes free on all British cars (by order of the Queen). Sort of a passive warning system for fluids, if you don't see the offending fluid then it's empty. More accessible than a dip stick. And not pricey like the Rover Cars "Ice Alert" system, to warn of approaching glaciers (after the Titanic, an option by Royal decree)... [This last one's real, there was an "Ice Alert" option, I have one from my '70 Rover 3500S.]

[vlad_d]

A comment on NAS/ROW...

After learning about the meaning, below(thanks for that), I saw a product listed as "NAS & ROW". So, that means "North American Spec" and "Rest Of World", right? So, the product description means basically "fits all", because there's nothing left. Unless you count the Mars Rovers, right?! ;p

I think sometimes all these acronyms obfuscate the meaning more than helping to describe things.

[roverp480]

You have to take into account that these notations originate in the UK . So ROW excludes the UK . Another older one used by Rover is NADA ( North America Dollar Area ) which includes US and Canada . It all makes sense here in the UK but I agree these acronyms are ambiguous . It is common in many industries that acronyms accepted as the norm become ambiguous or contradictory outside them. I worked for Rover & Land Rover and one had to emphasize to some employees that the Market was global , especially Land Rover , and one had not to become too parochial in ones thinking.

[vlad_d]

Ah, okay...that makes sense. I guess I didn't think it through:

NAS/ROW means it would work in North America, and export markets, but not necessarily in the UK.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the US is the center of the world :).

I think I just see alot of letters in front of parts these days more so that search engines will catch the words rather than being useful to us. I think most people would use the LR part number than trust something just fits because they bought their LR in the NADA zone.

[vlad_d]

"Rivet Counter" - A Land Rover restoration enthusiests who is extremely meticulous about factory correct details. This term is often a perjorative term.

I have a question for the forum about Land Rover enthusiests. Land Rover owners...at least classic Land Rover owners...seem to fall into a couple categories. Every car culture is different, but in the last few months of owning a LR I feel like I've seen these types of owners. Do they have names, like the "Rivet Counter" above?

What do we call this person?- Paid for a Series truck in the mid 1960's and refuses to spend another cent on it since. Replaces bolts and washers with whatever they have on the farm, often the wrong size. Uses house paint and brush to paint said Land Rover. Willing to work 20 hours to re-use a rusted piece of sheet metal that can be readily purchased for $5 new. Puts backyard gate latches on their truck's doors. Posts videos on YouTube about how clever they are that they "fixed" something on their car with big box hardware store (possibly plumbing?) parts. Do you know these guys?

How about parts suppliers? Do they get nick-names? Here is a typical one: Has 12 products on their website, but only 5 have photos. You're just supposed to send money on faith. You order the part "next day air". They spend a week shuffling around the wherehouse in limbo with no confirmation that anything is happening. Finally, an email comes and they say they don't have your part, never had it. Also, your other parts are delayed because they don't actually have a wherehouse and the entire operation is just a PO box and a re-seller for BritPart. It turns out your missing part is also on their website from 3 other manufacturers, but no one bothered to suggest the other one sitting on the shelf right next to the one you wanted. 5 Weeks later, you finally get the part and it fits like it was made by kids in art class. You spent $90 shipping a $25 part, and don't want to spend another $50 shipping the turd back for a "refund". Do these guys have a name? Oh, yeah , LRDirect.

[jimrr]

well, .......... the guy who doesn't spend any thing on his rover is probably called .......RICH !!!!
the other one who tries to make a buck by subterfuge is probably called something best left out of print!
the first Rover owner is probably a average guy, I don't consider myself a concurs restoration specialist by any means but i do try to keep stuff like it was made ..... i don't think there is a lot of room for improvement on these rigs.
I benifit from reading here of other avenues of parts procurement.

[vlad_d]

"Fender Flies" - these are people who appear, almost magically like flies, whenever you pop the hood of your classic car and try to fix something on it in public. They can be seen buzzing around and spontaneously telling you stories about their car adventures when you're trying to get your car back on the road.

This might be a Socal thing. But I'm sure broken down Land Rovers draw a crowd, too.

[vlad_d]

Another serious one...

BSW - This stands for "British Standard Whitwortb" and its a thread standard like SAE and Metric bolts and nuts. I'm sure you Rover fans have encountered plenty of these, but it was news to a new Rover owner like me.

BSF - This stands for "British Standard Fine" thread. I was wondering why my American hardware store didn't stock a 7/16th" -18 tpi thread chaser tap and everyone on Amazon was trying to sell me either 20 tpi or 14 tpi. Turns out the bolt was BSF, at 18. Now I know...

[roverp480]

BSF and BSW both have Whitworth thread forms. The flank angle is 55 degrees whereas SAE ,Unified and Metric are 60 degrees . Also the root and crest of the thread is radiused whereas the Unified and Metric mail threads are flat . Another thread you may not have come across is BA ( British Association) and are numbered 0 to 12 , 12 being the smallest. 2BA is used on earlier Land Rovers for fixing the instrument panel and similar uses. cable clips, lighting etc.
Wrenches for Whitworth nuts and bolts are marked with the thread size , not the across flats sizes .So a 1/4 BSF wrench fits a nut with a 1/4 dia thread, not one with 1/4" across the flats hexagon . The same applies to BA wrenches , a 2BA spanner fits a 2BA nut

[vlad_d]

Seriously...I love my Series Rover, it's a classic and I get people come up to me and say they love it too. But...the fact that you have to have 3 to 4 different wrench and sockets sets to work on it is madness. What purpose can that have for a vehicle that is supposed to spend most of it's time in rough country. Lets make it more complicated and require 4 sets of sockets, spanners, wrenches, ratchets, etc. Whoever you are...you have to agree...some engineers or machinists back at Sollihul made some mistakes with that.

Or was that a "plan"? Oh...you can't just WORK on it. You have to be a certified Land Rover mechanic...with 4 sets of each tool...real specialist $$$$. Bring it on in to the dealership! We'll take care of you!

[roverp480]

I am a retired Rover/Land Rover Cost engineer here in the UK and am well aware of all the vagaries of fixing on the old Land Rovers. The trouble is that the vehicle evolved in the 1940's using lots of parts which have their roots in the 1930's when BSF/BSW was the standard in the UK . When the Series 2 Land Rover was designed in the 1950's all the new fixings changed to what are referred to as Unified fixings ie UNF/UNC which basically copied the SAE standard. So most loose body fixing and the engine changed to unified threads , but the gearbox and axles stayed Whitworth . Gradually in the IIA era more parts, as they were modified, changed, to Unified threads . Towards the end of the S3 there was a move to go Metric as that was becoming the world standard . The 5 bearing crank 2.25 litre engine was one of the first , but you still had a mix of parts using Whitworth and Unified threads . The issue is exacerbated by budgets, or more accurately by lack of budgets! A new model programme using existing parts wont budget to change anything on them and and manufacturing wont have a budget either.
I came across exactly this at Ford when they owned LR . We were looking to use a Modified Ford Explorer front hub assembly on the LR3, which actually was made for Ford by Bosch in Clarkesville TN . We visited Dearborn and Clarkesville to see for ourselves and noted the wheel fixing were still inch sizes when the Ford World Standard was metric and Rover had gone metric 20 years previously. When we asked why this was the case the Ford design engineer explained that over the years they had tried to move to metric but the production lines made more than one model & the production engineers didn't want different but similar wheel nuts on different models due to the risk of a dangerous mix up. . The new model team would not pay for the work to change the existing model and the existing model team had no budget either , so inch fixing kept being retained, even then the rest of the hub was metric .
When you have an all new model, at an all new plant, you don't get these issues . That is one reason in the UK and probably the US, that Japanese companies, setting up on a green field site have an advantage over the established manufacturers.

[jimrr]

thanks p80, I like reading the "nuts & bolts" of a issue!

[mearstrae]

Once you understand that vehicles are designed by engineers but built by accountants all is clear. Engineer: "That assembly requires a 10mm cap screw." Accountant: "I think a 8mm screw will do." It all comes down to the 'Bottom Line'. On the main subject, lets not get down to Morse Tapers and Acme Threads.

[vlad_d]

@Roverp80: I can totally see it now! That makes so much sense, and is very relatable to other fields, too (happens at my work every day!). I actually can't describe to "non car people" how much of a shell game car manufacturing must be...with all the suppliers and vendors, etc. Each year, the major car manufacturers just redesign the fenders, lights and some plastic bits...but it's the same car as the last 5 years. Or even the same car as a sister company sells, but with different logo. It's funny going to the parts store and haggling with the guys behind the counter:

Parts guy: "My computer says we don't have a part for that car!"
Me: "You have it, just bring it out. Ever wonder why you have 10 boxes back there, but 500 car makes in the computer?"
Parts guy :"..."

@Jimr: I see what you did there ;)

[mearstrae]

I think we can all relate to the parts store 'Expert' and his computer. Customer: "What do you mean you don't have that part and can't get it?" Parts Expert: "Give me a break, I worked at Mc D's last week!" Many a time I have had to translate for a Parts Expert to get what I needed. I've even gone behind the counter to show them the part they didn't have. One guy said, "If you're going to do that, why don't we just put all the parts out on the floor?" Yes, why don't you?

[roverp480]

I think we can all relate to the parts store 'Expert' and his computer. Customer: "What do you mean you don't have that part and can't get it?" Parts Expert: "Give me a break, I worked at Mc D's last week!" Many a time I have had to translate for a Parts Expert to get what I needed. I've even gone behind the counter to show them the part they didn't have. One guy said, "If you're going to do that, why don't we just put all the parts out on the floor?" Yes, why don't you?
When British Leyland came about in the early 1970's , my local Triumph Dealer and the Local Rover Dealer joined forces and put all the parts for both marques in one new parts store and all the staff together as well , which meant I was often served by the ex triumph staff when getting parts and I initially had to point out which parts book to check and how to differentiate between the different models or design changes etc etc. This was well before computers and indeed Microfiche. One storeman did comment to me that he had noticed that when Land Rover owners came in for parts they knew exactly what they needed, and exactly what vehicle they had ,and would soon point out if he had picked the wrong item. there as the Triumph owners often didn't know what model or variant. they owned.

[jimrr]

@Roverp80: I can totally see it now! That makes so much sense, and is very relatable to other fields, too (happens at my work every day!). I actually can't describe to "non car people" how much of a shell game car manufacturing must be...with all the suppliers and vendors, etc. Each year, the major car manufacturers just redesign the fenders, lights and some plastic bits...but it's the same car as the last 5 years. Or even the same car as a sister company sells, but with different logo. It's funny going to the parts store and haggling with the guys behind the counter:

Parts guy: "My computer says we don't have a part for that car!"
Me: "You have it, just bring it out. Ever wonder why you have 10 boxes back there, but 500 car makes in the computer?"
Parts guy :"..."

@Jimr: I see what you did there ;)

sorry vlad, i don't get it, or if i did something what it was........... i'm clueless.

[vlad_d]

@jimr: "Nuts and bolts"...like, "the details"... but we were also actually talking about nuts and bolts. So, it's doubly appropriate. Heh...it's no fun if you have to explain it. Just take credit. It was good.