Clutch doesn't disengage?

[rayberne]

1972 Series III 2.25 petrol 88". The clutch pedal became "softer" progressively but fairly quickly - over just a day or two. Then I started it in neutral and tried to drive but it wouldn't go into gear at all.

New master and slave cylinders installed, all unions renewed, well bled and no leaks in the circuit. But pedal is still very soft and will not go into gear when the engine is running. Fearing something else very horrible is broken. Is there anything else I can check visually? The throw out bearing and lever are well hidden unless I am looking in the wrong place/way.

Your advice will be much appreciated.

[jimrr]

well, you'll get lots of advise here !!
you say the gearbox cross member is in the way of linkage? and you mention slave ''well bled''. I'll assume you have the hydrostatic clutch in which case I"d suspect the actuating arm is missing its' aim point. when you put it into any gear it will be in gear right?? I mean, if you crank the starter the truck would move? if the engine were running it'd grind a gear right? (eliminating a xmission issue))
sometimes it can be difficult to get the all the air out of that line to the slave cylinder,Sometimes i've moved it to a hill to work the last of it out tho it isn't totally necessary. I'd guess

[jimrr]

continued: the actuating arm is probably out of alignment (assuming the slave works ok)

[rayberne]

Thanks Jim.

The trans moves easily into and out of gear as expected when the engine is off. The car starts fine with the gearbox in neutral, car lurches if attempting to start while in gear because the clutch is not disengaging the trans.

Hydraulics were reverse bled until all air was purged. Actuating rod is firmly retained by the clip opposite the slave and is properly located in the slave.

[roverp480]

Its possible the lever 576137 inside the clutch housing has worn . It pivots on a ball and can wear through . If you are getting full throw of the slave cylinder , it may not be pushing on the clutch release bearing.
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[rayberne]

Is anyone aware of another way to verify whether the slave cylinder rod and bearing lever are OK?

Thanks.

[jimrr]

you might visually observe action via the water drain hole with a 'probe' (visual camera sees thru holes"_ ........ what i've done is just remove the slave cylinder and feel around with the shaft and make sure it feels right. i guess you can move the shaft/rod with a lever or something and see how it moves, how far etc. but the better thing to do is see how far the slave cylinder actually moves which of course you would have to induce a "load" on it as any air in there will move it anyway. you might be able to use longer bolts and leave a gap between the bell housing and the cylinder, enough to see in there with a flash light, mark the shaft then actuate the cylinder and possibly measure the movement, ((accounting for the gap))) but all i've ever had to do is use half a can of fluid (all over the place)) and b. endeavor to move that shaft around and make damn sure yo're convinced it's in the right spot. the newer clip that holds that shaft may be a little flaky but you sure ought to be able to tell if it is 'in the hole' or not.
my biggest issue on that was just getting the air out because it's never been as easy as the brakes for sure. put a bleed tube on the vent to a jar and pump hell out of that cylinder!! you should be able to tell which is the problem.. air or she shaft not seated.

[jimrr]

don't give up rayberne, if all you've done is replace gaskets etc. (no rods, cylinders etc) then in my opinion it's 90% chance of air still in that line. It isn't as easy as you read to get out. in fact the easier thing to do is reach the bolts to get the cylinder out !!!

[biffidum]

You could try removing the "shim" or metal gasket (not sure what it does) as it will give your rod more stroke on the fork.

[biffidum]

There is a short piece of braided rubber hose (RH) that can go soft.

[jimrr]

yea, if you have a soft hose (not easily discernable) it will swell when you pressurize the line, clutch won't move. //// note, he said he just bled, rbld, the slave so i still think the rod is in the wrong spot.

[rayberne]

I'll pull the slave back out for an inspection before I order a new flex line. The actuator rod was held firmly in position by the pin/staple on the lever end; I'll check it again to make sure it is still tight and if possible to see if there is any resistance when I try to push it by hand. Then a careful reinstallation assuring the actuator rod is centered in the cup of the slave cylinder piston. After that, if there problem remains, I will see about replacing the flex line.

Something to look forward to next weekend!

[dhager]

There should be an inspection plate on top of the bellhousing, held in place by the front bolts of the gear lever mounting bracket. I think its main purpose is to give a view of clutch plate condition, but pulling that bracket and removing the plate would give you a way to see inside and watch what happens when the clutch pedal is depressed. Bracket and main shift lever would all come off as one piece. You could use a small mirror or borescope to get a view of the movement of the clutch fork and throw out bearing. My engine and gearbox are currently out of the car due to a similar hard-to-diagnose problem. I only wish I had known about the inspection plate before pulling the gearbox. You do have to pull the floor and tunnel covers to get to it. Let me know if you could use any pictures.

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[rayberne]

DHager, thank you - that is a great tip! Exactly what I needed for verification before tearing out the gearbox. I have the left (LHD) floor panel out for easy access to the slave bleeder pipe. Will proceed to remove the center now. Any photos that come easily to hand would be great. Thanks again!

[jimrr]

without re-reading all this I believe all he's done is re-new the slave and possibly the master and I still think he has air in there.
since one stroke of the pedal doesn't always displace a line full of fluid the possibility of air in there is good and submerging a tube affixed to the bleed on the slave, then pumping the pedal without closing the bleed a few times can elimate this.
I'd hate to see the floor plates pulled only to find that oft times hard to displace air is still in the line !!

[rayberne]

Both the master and slave cylinder were replaced with new and bench-bled before installation. Then performed a reverse bleed from the slave cylinder until there were no air bubbles and master reservoir was full. Thanks for your concern; there is no air in the system.

[dhager]

I agree that pulling those floor plates can be a pain in the butt. Mine were literally glued down by some previous owner and it took days to get them off without damage. It was a real mess. Somehow I lost the original inspection plate from my bellhousing, I think maybe when I cleaned the gearbox with Gunk and power washed it in a gravel area. I had to make a new one from some aluminum plate. You can see it in these external and internal pics.

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[rayberne]

That's perfect, thanks for the photos! Luckily for me, the floor panels come out very easily on mine. It looks like it should be pretty straightforward to take a look in there with the endoscope once I have removed the inspection plate. Knowing the status of the actuator rod and clutch lever will be a huge help!

[rayberne]

Yes! I can work with this - lots of room to send the endoscope in to see what is (or isn't) happening inside. And I have some serious cleaning to do. Thanks for the tip DH - even looking at the parts catalog I didn't notice that plate.

[dhager]

Looks like the plate is missing, or you already removed it and put the bracket back on.

[rayberne]

I removed it from under the gear shift bracket, then put the bolts back in place to avoid losing them. :)

[jimrr]

I take it the hydraulic line is not swelling when you step on the clutch?

[rayberne]

The inspection plate on the bell housing was a help in diagnosis, thank you! The bearing is not stuck - it moves freely. The lever is firmly attached and the staple is in place at the bearing end. The actuator rod is centered and firmly attached by the staple to that end of the lever.

I removed, checked, and reinstalled the master, slave, and stainless braid flex line and then reverse-bled the lines until no air and reservoir is full. No leaks at any union. But still super soft pedal will not firm up, no movement at the actuator rod (and therefore the lever and bearing).

[rayberne]

The throw-out bearing is sitting on the fingers of the pressure plate. I can move it easily, but when released it comes back against the pressure plate. The actuator rod is fully "in" and may not be moving back out - which may explain why there is no pressure in the hydraulic system if it's not pushing against any resistance? Is this the normal resting state of the bearing? What normally pushes the rod against the slave cylinder?

[jimrr]

if at rest you can spin the bearing this is right for you would not want that bearing turning ALL the time. when pedal is up the bearing should be free of the spinning fingers just a bit. The slave will only move the clutch a certain distance. There is no adjustment available nor necessary.
I am not reading or mis-understanding your explanation with the word(s) "fully in" , and "released" (clutch actuated or not?)
hopefully someone will get on here soon that figures it out but I believe you're getting close here. If you can discern just how far that rod moves it may be a clue.

[rayberne]

Thread continued here: http://https://forums.roversnorth.com/showthread.php?17797-Clutch-Pressure-Plate-Deflection